Wearing face masks or coverings on public transport to be mandatory from June 15th

[Joseph_Pestell]

So, having told us for months that the "scientific advice" was that masks would not make a difference, they are now to become mandatory. This seems to be yet another instance during this crisis where the Government is doing the right thing but at the wrong time. We see other countries in Europe, even Italy, coming out of this so much better than we are. Most businesses here still have no certainty at all about how even to plan for the future, let alone convert those plans to a reality.

 

But Government priority seems to be to make sure that we can all watch football and test cricket.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Germany and Austria made masks mandatory on public transport months ago. They were handing them out at stations.

 

Will this be the same here? Or do we have to supply our own?

[TheQ]

9 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

The UK is an island (or several)  too, it has always been your best defence whether its from Vikings or Spanish and French or the Nazis -  , whats gone so wrong this time?

 

 

 

NZ And AUS are destinations with practically no through traffic, The UK is a hub, London Airports, and to a lesser extent Glasgow  are international hubs, where many people travel through, often stopping off for a few days to have a look round. Covid was being brought in by asymptomatics long before anyone knew about it. it spread rapidly amoungst the population. Heathrow had  18.9 MILLION people travel through it in December alone.

Densities of 500 hundred people per sqkm are nothing compared to London, which has a density of 5200 per sqkm. London has by far the majority of cases in the UK..

 

It is no coincidence that New York, also an international Air Hub where people stop for a visit has a density of 1089 per Sqm has the highest Covid infection rate in the USA..

Edited June 5, 2020 by TheQ

[TheQ]

42 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

So how do you explain Hong Kong's handfuld of deaths

 

Hong Kong is also an international airhub -- and a domestic hub for China, where the virus originated. And trains ran from Wuhan to HK.

 

Hong Kong population density: 7000 people per square km

(And only 15% of the land area is developed: the rest is hills and national parks.)

One part of Hong Kong has 57000 people per square km.

 

Hong Kong population: 7.5m

New York: 8.4m

London: 9.0m

 

Covid deaths

NYC: 16,877

London: 5,999

Hong Kong: 4

(last death in mid-March)

 

And yet, a while back, when only a few thousand people in Britain had died, I suggested that the UK could learn something from Hong Kong. Perhaps wearing masks helped cut deaths.

 

And I was ridiculed.

 

 

 

 

 

Not by me you weren't, I've a mask on now, and have been wearing one when not at home since day one. (All 5 days at the doctors while furloughed, until this week when recalled to work.) Hk is also lucky (and Japan) thats it's common for many to wear masks anyway, so there is a bigger supply normally available.

I also Pointed out on ER, that the only reason they were saying for the public not to wear a mask at the start,  was to stop the NHS /  essential staff running out.

 

 My previous statements were it's more a case of AUS and NZ having an easier time keeping the virus out..

Edited June 5, 2020 by TheQ

[John Harris]

13 hours ago, ColinK said:

Watch the prices of face masks shoot up. I’ve already seen disposable masks at £1 each.

 

To enforce it all the ticket gates will be fitted with face recognition cameras, if they see your face the gates will not open.

 

 

 

Remember that the Government specifically don't want people wearing "face masks", the announcements suggest "face coverings", which they suggest should be scarves, bandanas or home-made, on the clip on this morning's BBC News there was a chap on the tube wearing a tea towel.  Perhaps a marketing idea for the cash strapped preservation societies and museums?

 

The idea of these coverings is NOT to protect the wearer, it's to protect everyone else FROM the wearer's nasal and oral emissions, one of the reasons cited for the good outcomes in South Korea, Japan is that people cover their noses and mouths as soon as they get a cold as a matter of course, so transmission is reduced.

 

jh

[Bernard Lamb]

13 hours ago, Mountain Goat said:

Looks like public transport is no longer going to be an option for me in the future. 

The future?

I have not used it since mid March.

I belong to a walking group that often visits places in London and there is100% agreement that we will not be visiting London or any other place that requires the use of public transport for the foreseeable future.

I have a box of dust masks for DIY use and as I only venture out on a Saturday morning for a weekly paper and a few odds and ends I use the same one for several weeks.

Bernard

[spamcan61]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

But Government priority seems to be to make sure that we can all watch football and test cricket.

Remeber, we have a prime minister that literally said  "f##k business"  so best not to expect too  much focus on the economy.

[spamcan61]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

hmmm . You don’t  think that it’s now recommended to wear face masks simply  because they are now available whereas previously it would further have restricted supplies to NHS ?  We should probably have been wearing them weeks ago . It’s a bit like quarantining . It wasn’t thought necessary at the peak of the pandemic ( even though most other countries were doing it) but now suddenly it’s recommended .  
 

Agreed, and let us not forget there's now a million sets of potentially sub-standard PPE 'we' bought from Turkey with great fanfare now sitting in a warehouse, maybe they could shift that on eBay...

[Nearholmer]

IMO, there is something a lot deeper than equivocal science and mealy-mouthed government communication that gets in the way of mask-wearing in the UK (and possibly some other countries too): we have a strong and deep cultural dislike of masks and face-coverings.

 

Look at the disproportionate fuss made about a few people wearing burkas as an instance. The dislike of it was/is far beyond rational, it touched something deep and feral in some people.

 

So, getting people to “mask up” in this country will always be difficult, and my observation, like others here, is that very few people indeed are doing it through self-motivation. I do when going to the supermarket (good homemade mask) and I still feel like a bit of a pr@t, because I’m in a very tiny minority of people who look like bandits from a 1950s B-movie.

 

Yet, I do believe based on a combination of reading the science and common-sense that if 90% of people did mask-up, transmission would drop to very low levels.

 

My reading is that the government isn’t communicating firmly or clearly because either:

 

- the libertarian instincts of the PM and those around him make it really hard for them to impose anything, they just hate doing it (the PM apologised profusely for imposing lock-down if you recall; it was against his instincts to do it);

 

- they fear getting pinned over the very patchy to non-existent availability of masks or face-coverings from shops, on top of getting pinned over PPE for health/care staff;

 

- they know that any edict would be widely met with the waving of two fingers, and don’t want to be seen to be ineffectual;

 

- there is actually no desire by the government to further suppress transmission rates, having R just below 1 is considered “about right” because it allows the virus to spread at a rate that the NHS and undertakers can cope with, hopefully getting through most of the population before October and ‘flu arrive.

 

Getting Uber-grumpy about it, I think that the government’s communication of key “thou shalt” and “thou shalt not” messages during “hard lockdown” was pretty good, but since “easing” has become pathetically poor. Where are the easy to understand posters and leaflets? Where are the boringly repeated TV, radio and internet messages? Why has the “alert level” system, which had so much potential to add clarity*, been fudged and fluffed so comprehensively? Why is it left for the BBC, newspapers etc to convert the messages into easily understood forms?
 

*My children understood the alert levels in seconds, having found a video on line explaining them, and as soon as easing was announced They asked me “So, are we at Level 3 now then?”. Of course, the answer is complicated, and that fact is an example of really poor communication, an opportunity trashed.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Nearholmer

[PaulRhB]

Masks weren’t thought to help much, now they acknowledge that any little help is worth pursuing as more has become clear. Rather than railing about what was thought a few months back just accept it’s going to help and do your bit to assist  

 

If we lead by example then it’s the minority left to be dealt with by fines if required and they won’t have the excuse no one else is wearing them. I’ve had masks in my bag for any unavoidable closed in space for weeks, it’s not difficult. 
 

You’re going to feel a whole lot worse if by refusing because you’ve got a strop on you catch this nasty virus. 
One of my colleagues wife got it, probably through her work in the prison service, and that combined with the serious secondary infection was three weeks of hell for her and massive worry for him. 

It might save someone’s life, possibly yours, get over it and help out. Whatever it’s far more effective than clapping in helping the NHS. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by PaulRhB

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 hour ago, John Harris said:

 

Remember that the Government specifically don't want people wearing "face masks", the announcements suggest "face coverings", which they suggest should be scarves, bandanas or home-made, on the clip on this morning's BBC News there was a chap on the tube wearing a tea towel.  Perhaps a marketing idea for the cash strapped preservation societies and museums?

 

Some bands are doing this and selling facemasks with their logos on them, so it's not a bad idea. 

 

 

[Mike Buckner]

15 hours ago, maico said:

Here's a tip to reuse masks and gloves. The half life of the virus is 2 minutes in saliva exposed to sunlight. Put the mask in bright sunshine for half an hour and turn over. It cannot withstand UV.

 

 

 

Remember that UV does not pass through glass - so outdoors for  UV exposure.

[polybear]

On several of the daily briefings they put a chart up showing (from some sort of survey) just how many were playing by the rules, i.e. only essential visits to shops for food, or medical needs, or one period of daily exercise.  The answer was 82% from memory.  So basically one in five were admitting to breaking the rules.  No wonder we're in sh1t street.

I'm all for wearing masks, and personally I'd make it compulsory in all shops, buildings etc. outside your own home.  But that'd never get accepted, and too many would ignore it anyway.  Take a look at the recent demo in Hyde Park, many of whom were in the Black & Ethnic Minority Group (i.e. at higher risk) - the numbers of people not wearing masks was worrying in my book.

[TheQ]

One of the lady members of my sailing club makes sailing clothing etc. for the last few weeks she has been making face masks and Head Bands. the head bands are very popular with the NHS staff as it reduces the elastic / ties of the face masks digging in.

[Mountain Goat]

I think I had better explain why I would not be able to use a face mask. It has taken me years to be able to use glasses. I need to wear clear glasses to protect my eyes from flies for cycling, and sun glasses for driving, and also reading glasses these days for the times when I need them, but it has taken me years to be able to wear them any more then fifteen or twenty minutes at a time, as I can't stand the claustrophobic feeling of having things on my face. 

It is not just my face. I can wear a bicycle helmet but the times when I have had a moped (As I can drive a 50cc on my car licence), I have found that I can only stand an open face helmet for a limited period of time as I find that with covering my ears I feel totally claustrophobic and I can't even try to wear a full faced helmet.

Now with a facemask, I get even more claustrophobic as it is not only wearing the thing, but it slightly restricts my breathing... And if I feel under stress I do get issues where my throat closes up. I am currently on medication due to this, as if it gets bad my nose also starts to close up.

 

Due to times of cycling in the winter, I do need some protection for the 35 to 40mph downhill stretches to stop my face from freezing, and I have tried several things from scarves (Which I rarely use as through experience it is not safe) to knitted circular thingie my Mum made, which was very lose fitting and did not stay round my face (And I found that I can't wear wool next to my skin for that long before I have to take it off). But in recent years I tried the shop bought elasticated things to protect the neck and face and no way can I wear them. The ONLY thing I have found I can wear was this lose fitting tube like covering that had a draw string top. I did not really like the idea of a draw string top because of potential strangulation issues, but it is the ONLY thing I have found that I can wear that I am happy with to stop the cold air getting at my neck and also breating in cold air while on the bicycle. The thing is very loose fitting below the draw string. 

I know through experience that I can't wear dust masks on my face even for a few seconds, as I automatically feel a restriction and I just don't breathe. Once my dentist tried to put this thing in my mouth and partly over my face and I blacked out as I did not draw a breath. It was supposed to be for people like me who don't do well while at a dentist. 

 

Anyway. I rarely use public transport as I find I just can't stay in crowded places, and believe it or not, I once worked trains! But if I had difficulties, I had the back cab to go back to so I could get some de-stress time before I went back out. It was the only way I managed it for so long! 

 

But to be honest, when I get difficulties with anxiety and stress etc, I get partial and full shutdowns so I am not able to walk the few miles to reach the bus stops anyway... So without the car I am stuck. 

[SM42]

9 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

The UK may well be an island, however it's an overcrowded one... 

 

Population density:

 

UK: 274 people per km²
New Zealand: 18 people per km²

Australia: 3.2 people per km² 

 

 

Not a good comparison. 35% of the UK isn't effectively desert like Australia nor are there several active volcanoes and large forested areas (38%)  like New Zealand.

 

A better comparsion would be in populated areas rather than whole country area (Sydney c1,114, London c7,700, Auckland c3,133, Canberra c448, Birmingham c3,600) per sqaure km. Note that Sydney is around 10 times greater in area than London

 

Back to masks

 

Whilst the effectiveness or otherwise if open to debate, there can be no harm in doing so if you so wish. However there does need to be some common sense in use which unfortunately is not very common.

 

How many  mask wearers do you see on TV who think their nose isn't a route in or out and therefore doesn't need to be covered.

 

The whole stategy at present does smack of limping from one thing to another whilst the common sense that the government is relying on has gone out of the window over the last two weeks since a particluar road trip came to light.  

 

Seems odd to me that "the science" seems to be different in every country, when science should at least be fairly consistent. It's science after all. Physics and chemistry are quite consatnt so I suspect is epidemiology.

 

Andy

[Nearholmer]

Polybear

 

My memory is also that c80% of people said they were following the rules and 20% not.

 

It has struck me that that is rather how life always is with things where following the rules benefits the individual a bit, and everyone else a lot, adherence to speed limits on roads, not chucking rubbish in the streets etc etc, so perhaps depressingly its the best that can be expected. Usually, and I think proven in this case, the biggest rule-breakers are young blokes (belief in their own immortality and no care for anyone else), and older adults of low intelligence or immense arrogance.

 

The thing to be feared is that something could cause the proportion of people following the rules to significantly fall, which takes me back to my current pet rant about poor communication by the government: I think that really does pose a risk, by allow a false sense of security to grow.

 

Kevin

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Nearholmer

[SM42]

The rules and how to follow them has been muddied somewhat lately. The enforcement was probelmatic to start, almost impossible now.

Who will police mask wearing on public transport? Policing ticketing is hit and miss and the path of least resistance is taken for the greater benefit of not delaying everyone or being physically assaulted. What hope with mask wearing?

 

The original message was simple. Now it is 50 odd pages of guidance with periodic ad hoc additions and  a strange traffic light system with parameters and timelines that can change but seem to be set in stone.  It may be the road map everyone wanted, but you don't need to beat the estimated arrival time.

 

Perhaps the government were surprised that the original Stay Home message was too successful

 

The rules / guidance are now so muddy and complex  that it seems  anything is now fair game.

 

From the experience of commuting by car over the last 8 weeks and seeing many who obviously  weren't making essential journeys, I don't hold out much hope that this rule will be possible to enforce effectively. 

 

Andy

[Reorte]

59 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

My memory is also that c80% of people said they were following the rules and 20% not.

 

It has struck me that that is rather how life always is with things where following the rules benefits the individual a bit, and everyone else a lot, adherence to speed limits on roads, not chucking rubbish in the streets etc etc, so perhaps depressingly its the best that can be expected. Usually, and I think proven in this case, the biggest rule-breakers are young blokes (belief in their own immortality and no care for anyone else), and older adults of low intelligence or immense arrogance.

 

When it comes to rules there are some people who'll follow them religiously to the letter no matter what, some people who'll actively flout them no matter what, and a lot of people who'll generally go along with them but not perfectly. The first group don't cause problems (there are caveats on that, but that's digressing) and the second will always be a problem. But the third group, which I'd hazard is the biggest, you need to keep them on your side for rules to be effective, and the majority (not all, but the majority) of rules and restrictions have to be seen to be reasonable for that to work.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Reorte

[Nearholmer]

Reorte

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

My experience is that the vast majority will do nearly all of what is asked if they can understand what is being asked, and can understand why it is being asked.

 

IMO the government have been insufficiently clear in communicating both what and why at various times during the pandemic, and have been woefully unclear on both in the past two or three weeks.

 

Kevin

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Phil Parker]

All the science over face coverings suggests they are limited use but can reduce the transmission from someone who is contagious but doesn't know they are. In this respect, wrapping a tea towel or scarf around your face will work. You don't need to buy something labelled mask.

 

Mind you, these look a bit neat: https://pixelshack.co.uk/products/locomotive-facemasks-several-designs?variant=32349112041556

 

Ultimately, how many are worn will come down to peer pressure. If you are the only one wearing a face covering then you'll feel self-conscious and take it off. If you are the only one NOT wearing a face covering then you'll feel self-conscious and probably put one on. Yes, there will be w*****s who proudly refuse, but we can't let them run the world.

 

At shows, I plan to dose my Dr Who mask with nice-smelling stuff. Never mind CV, protection from smelly people is more important!

[rockershovel]

I’ve been rummaging through my wardrobe for the various bandannas and shemaghs which I’ve worn in desert locations for many years. If the government wants me to wear a face covering, it isn’t hard. Same goes for wearing masks in town; the Chinese and Japanese have been doing it for years. No 2 Son and I experimented with it while we were in Japan last year and the quantity of dirt on them, was quite instructive. 

 

Its the lack of basic definition and execution, which I find so depressing. This morning’s tv interview was a typical case in point; the spokesman was clearly not prepared. The whole system appears to have become reactive, driven by media coverage. 

 

There is a fundamental problem now, by which the government have surrendered, or never held the initiative. 2m social distancing will, quite soon, break down under the weight of its sheer unworkability, as the economic implications start to bite. The government will panic at the prospect of 3m unemployed, and at the prospect of being directly held responsible for the attendant economic damage; some sort of consensus between the population and the employers, and their insurers will appear; the Infection will run its course, as they do, and life will go on. 

 

 

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Masks weren’t thought to help much, now they acknowledge that any little help is worth pursuing as more has become clear. Rather than railing about what was thought a few months back just accept it’s going to help and do your bit to assist

 

My understanding is that wearing masks is not necessary when social distancing is possible, however with increased economic activity will come greater use of public transport, therefore requiring masks because social distancing becomes impossible.

 

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Too many variables which are needed to qualify your statement in there. 

 

 

 

A long way from being a verified fact.

And there is a massive difference between types of surface, porous or non porous being the major types.

 

But hey it’s a US.GOV fact......must be correct 

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Masks weren’t thought to help much, now they acknowledge that any little help is worth pursuing as more has become clear. Rather than railing about what was thought a few months back just accept it’s going to help and do your bit to assist  

 

If we lead by example then it’s the minority left to be dealt with by fines if required and they won’t have the excuse no one else is wearing them. I’ve had masks in my bag for any unavoidable closed in space for weeks, it’s not difficult. 
 

You’re going to feel a whole lot worse if by refusing because you’ve got a strop on you catch this nasty virus. 
One of my colleagues wife got it, probably through her work in the prison service, and that combined with the serious secondary infection was three weeks of hell for her and massive worry for him. 

It might save someone’s life, possibly yours, get over it and help out. Whatever it’s far more effective than clapping in helping the NHS. 

 

I don't think that anyone has suggested that any of us should not comply with this.

 

The complaint is that the Government's position is incoherent when judged against its previous statements about face coverings.