Etched wagon kits - where to begin?

[Alex TM]

Hi folks,

 

One outcome of another thread I started was the suggestion that I begin learning etched kit construction by commencing with a wagon.  Where would those of you knowledgeable in such things suggest would be a good place to start?  If it's of use I would be working in 00, and looking for something that would be running during 1938-1947.

 

[As an aside, I like the look of some of the MR, LNWR, and LYR brake vans as produces by London Road Models - would they be suitable?]

 

Thanks in advance for any pointers.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Paul Cram]

I have a Midland Brake Van to build. It is a D&S kit and they are good kits. My first etched kit was the D&S GC brake van which went together easily. Just be careful with the instructions and check which end is which (I didn't and got it wrong but easliy corrected) as they tend to be brief. i'm looking forawrd to building it when I have cleared a number of other builds off the bench.

[brossard]

The first concern for me has to be equipment.  You should have a good soldering iron, 45W or so.  A soldering station with adjustable temp is ideal but these are a bit dear.

 

Solder is next, 145C is excellent but don't fall for lead free.  You can  get this from Gaugemaster.

 

Flux, well, opinions are all over the place.  I used to use Carrs Green which is dilute phosphoric acid.  This would literally get up my nose and doesn't do soldering iron bits any good.  Nowadays I use flux like the Gaugemaster non acid stuff.

 

A fiber pen is useful I find for cleaning excess solder.  I spend a lot of time with my builds scraping (old curved xacto blade) and polishing because blobs of extra solder look unsightly.  Desoldering braid is another useful tool.

 

Sometimes there are tiny detail parts that are just too fiddly to solder, I will use CA for these.  I use Zap A Gap medium which is high quality.  Try to do any gluing after soldering.  Heat will release nasty fumes from CA.

 

I have built one or two D&S kits in 4mm and 7mm.  These are good.  I have also built a fair number of brass kits, in both scales, from other manufacturers.

 

One of my favourites:

 

 

Blacksmith Models 4mm exMR LMS Milk Van

 

John

Edited June 9, 2020 by brossard

[MartinWales]

47 minutes ago, Alex TM said:

Hi folks,

 

One outcome of another thread I started was the suggestion that I begin learning etched kit construction by commencing with a wagon.  Where would those of you knowledgeable in such things suggest would be a good place to start?  If it's of use I would be working in 00, and looking for something that would be running during 1938-1947.

 

[As an aside, I like the look of some of the MR, LNWR, and LYR brake vans as produces by London Road Models - would they be suitable?]

 

Thanks in advance for any pointers.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Alex- LRM have printed a very useful pamphlet for those about to start in etched brass construction.

 

Well worth obtaining1

[Steamport Southport]

It probably depends on what you want. But personally I would start with a Comet coach kit such as one of the NPCCS vans. Something like a Stanier Full Brake.

 

Easy to build and if you do mess up with a part then you can buy that part separately and haven't totally ruined an expensive kit. The only difficult bits are things like hinges, handrails and door handles, and obviously the painting.

 

Very little bending or attaching things like strapping. Useful information on the old website under Downloads.

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/data/PDF/Building Coaches the Comet Way2.pdf

 

There is also a useful guide to building etched kits on the Connoisseur Models website.

 

Aimed at O Gauge modellers but much of it is relevant. It's a pity he no longer does the 4mm models apart from occasional batches of the loco kits. The wagon kits are very good at learning techniques such as bending and riveting.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Questions.html

 

 

Jason

[ianLMS]

My first venture into etched brass kit buidling was only around 2 years ago and the kit was a Falcon LMS horsebox. Not the easiest kit to start with and it didnt turn out quite as well as i hoped but i learnt an awful lot making it and it drove me to try loco and coach kits. 

As others have stated, get the right tools and it makes it much easier. Soldering iron, flux, small clamps, tweezers , files, scratch brush are all things that help. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by ianLMS

[Barclay]

London Road Models now sell some of the old and well-regarded D&S kits.

 

My first etched wagon was by Connoisseur Models, absolutely superb. Sadly they only do 7mm now but worth getting one secondhand if you can. It's also worth looking at their website because you can download any of their instruction booklets and they include a lot of general tips on kit-building.

[Compound2632]

Of the ex-D&S brake vans from London Road Models that you mention, the LNWR D16 is a whitemetal kit, the Midland 6-wheeler is a mix of brass and whitemetal components and a bit tricky, but the L&Y "tin tab" is pretty much all brass apart from whitemetal end pillars and axlebox/spring castings, which could be glued rather than soldered after all the brass work is done. It took me quite a while to get to grips with soldering whitemetal and it's still a bit fraught: the components have more mass but the energy one can deliver to the work is limited by the melting temperature of the material. For brass kits, I've always got on well enough with my 25 W Antex iron and 145 deg solder.

 

I wouldn't start with a coach kit, or at least, not with one where you have to bend the tumblehome yourself. I understand the Comet / 51L kits have the tumblehome pre-formed. Start small.

 

BTW I doubt that either the LNWR or L&Y "tin tab" brake vans would have survived to your chosen period, though the later 20 ton L&Y brakes and the Midland 6-wheeler did. 

[chris p bacon]

26 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

My first venture into etched brass kit buidling was only around 2 years ago and the kit was a Falcon LMS horsebox. Not the easiest kit to start with and it didnt turn out quite as well as i hoped but i learnt an awful lot making it and it drove me to try loco and coach kits. 

 

As others have stated, get the right tools and it makes it much easier. Soldering iron, flux, small clamps, tweezers , files, scratch brush are all things that help. 

 

I'd advise against picking up any of the Falcon Range (Ex Jidenco etc)  they are not the best designed and can be near unbuildable.  They are much like an old Bill Bedford kit I started with, it nearly put me off building in brass for life.

 

I agree about the tools, a decent soldering iron is a boon (I have a temp controlled Antex) but I started with a cheapo which I still use.

[Torper]

Instead of a possibly complicated wagon or coach, you could always start with a small and hopefully uncomplicated etched brass kit of a small building - how about severn Models' Brick Lineside Hut? https://severnmodels.com/epages/eshop1179816.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop1179816/Products/D.1

 

DT

[brossard]

3 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I'd advise against picking up any of the Falcon Range (Ex Jidenco etc)  they are not the best designed and can be near unbuildable.  They are much like an old Bill Bedford kit I started with, it nearly put me off building in brass for life.

 

I agree about the tools, a decent soldering iron is a boon (I have a temp controlled Antex) but I started with a cheapo which I still use.

 

I have fond memories of building a pair of Bill's Dia P4 ballast wagons (this was part of a group build initiated on another forum.  Sadly most participants dropped out before completion.)  There were a lot of fiddly bits so not the easiest.  This underlines the need to keep parts on the fret until needed, the fret can act as a part holder for soldering.  Or use CA for tiny parts.

 

I agree about starting small and D&S kits are quite good.

 

John

[ianLMS]

3 hours ago, Torper said:

Instead of a possibly complicated wagon or coach, you could always start with a small and hopefully uncomplicated etched brass kit of a small building - how about severn Models' Brick Lineside Hut? https://severnmodels.com/epages/eshop1179816.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop1179816/Products/D.1

 

DT

Totally agree with that. I have several of Severn Models kits including some stables and workshops and are great to work with. Their workshop tools etc are great, but maybe too small to bother soldering. CA works just as well for those. 

 

In my opinion, any kit will do as long as you don't expect it to be a perfect job first time around. Whatever you can get your hands on relatively cheaply would work. If it all goes wrong, its no great loss, but the experience will be invaluable for future projects. It's all about learning how to handle the brass/white metal components, soldering techniques, bending the parts, fettling a little, getting things square, prepping for painting etc and these are things you can only learn by trying (and often failing)   A very few talented folks probably get things right first time. I still learn every-time I build a kit and still struggle to get things exactly as I would like them!  

Edited June 10, 2020 by ianLMS

[brossard]

Agree with Ian, every kit I build, whether brass or plastic is a learning experience.  Covering up mistakes is an important skill.  As I mentioned above your equipment is important.  Don't start a brass kit before you have everything you think you need.  This will probably end in tears.

 

I thought I would show my basic tool kit for working in brass (many of these are used for plastic too):

 

 

First of course is the iron, mine is a Weller 35W.  The goop in the tin is tinning compound.  I have some brass wool that works very well for cleaning bits.  You can use a damp sponge as well.  If the bit goes black it won't work well.  I mentioned Gaugemaster flux and you can see DCC Concepts 145 solder.

 

A set of diamond files (Eileen's Emporium) will come in very handy.  These don't clog as readily as steel files. 

 

There's the fiber pen from Hatton's and other places. 

 

A large file is useful for getting rid of unwanted material. 

 

I use a  heavy craft knife for removing parts from the fret. 

 

Fine tweezers for handling parts. 

 

I mounted a broach in a pin vise (the plastic handle broke).  A set of broaches is a good thing to have.

 

0.9mm and 0.5mm drills in pin vices are very valuable.  I rarely use other sizes so those drill packs are not a lot of use.  Buy in a LOT of bits.  0.5mm bits go dull and break frequently.

 

John

[Alex TM]

Hi again folks,

 

Thanks for a truly helpful range of supplies.  The feedback about manufacturers, tools, and prototype history will help rule some things in, and others out.  Again, all helpful.

 

Brossard's comment about learning to cover up mistakes is one I will need to take on board and learn from the outset!

 

Once more, your support is really appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[polybear]

17 hours ago, brossard said:

One of my favourites:

 

 

Blacksmith Models 4mm exMR LMS Milk Van

 

John

 

Very nice ; sadly Blacksmith Models got sucked into the (not) great Cooper-Craft empire

Any attempt at ordering is highly likely to end in tears, with nothing to show for it.

[brossard]

Unfortunately a lot of old kit names got taken over by others and then nothing happened.  A good kit but I recall I had to scratch build a lot of the steps.

 

LRM seems to be a good bet for kits.  Brassmasters have a few kits, upgrade parts too.  I got my D&S L&Y brake from Brassmasters when they had a limited run.

 

John

[Nick Holliday]

It's interesting that all the models shown have been from extinct or dormant ranges. There are several producers currently in business, although some may not be trading at the moment. One problem with the current available output is that the kits have often been prepared by different designers, with different abilities, over a number of years and there can be considerable variation of buildability, sometimes as a result of the complexity of the prototype. It might be helpful if Alex could narrow down his requirements and then people could comment on their views on the suitability of them for a beginner, based on their own experience of that particular product. I was impressed by the R&E kit for a GCR horsebox, available from Brassmasters, which I found as easy to build as a good D&S kit, but I don't know if that meets Alex's parameters, but a straight sided horsebox is a good subject for starters.

[Compound2632]

He's said, last ten years of the grouping era. A high proportion of the etched wagon market has been of pre-grouping types, as the technique is well-suited to small batch production of types that are unlikely to be of mass-market interest. To an increasing extent, this niche is being occupied by 3D printed / resin kits.

[brossard]

Yes, the proliferation of 4mm RTR and quite good plastic kits has relegated brass kits to more obscure types.  Tech is coming into its own and some of us, maybe a lot, will be making our own 3D printed kits before long, buying files from designers.  The more clever of us will design our own.  I still see a need for etched underframe parts and other details though.

 

John

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Yes, the last ten years of the grouping is what I plan to focus upon,  Preferably wagons with a wheelbase of less than a scale 20' too; available space is going to be an issue so shorter wagons help.

 

As for the need for etched underframe parts in an age of 3D printed resin, etc, I can understand elements of that.  Fine parts but with a fair degree of strength, coupled to extra weight low down.  No doubt there may be other advantages.

 

Again, thanks for the input.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[brossard]

I always thought the period from about 1935 to 1939 could be called a golden age.  An ideal time with smart express trains, interesting locals and varied goods stock.

 

In fact, etched underframe details are useful for plastic kits.  Wizard models have the old Mainly Trains etches.

 

John

[Compound2632]

14 hours ago, brossard said:

I always thought the period from about 1935 to 1939 could be called a golden age.  An ideal time with smart express trains, interesting locals and varied goods stock.

 

A thin veneer of modernity covering up 30 years of decline. Anyway, that is sort of the "middle grouping period" (though I'd expand it to begin c. 1930 or even c. 1928); the OP writes of the "last ten years" which bar two years, is wartime and its aftermath - a very interesting period to model, indeed. 

 

If there was a Golden Age, I'd say it was the last decade of the 19th century. The 1950s were a something of a Silver Age - I can see the attraction as a modelling period too. But there is much to inspire modelling of any period, fortunately.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

My choice of period is for several reasons.  One is that I particularly like the aesthetic that LMS locos had in terms of legend during that period; another is that the war interrupted repainting and replacement programmes giving rise to antiquated locomotives and stock remaining in use beyond what may have been planned or expected.  The first few years of British Railways hold a similar attraction.

 

Again, thanks to everyone who posted.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Compound2632]

Yes, it was only really in this late period that the LMS really started to look like what we think of when we think of the LMS, if you see what I mean. Not just LNWR / Midland / etc. with that 30s veneer of modernity. The sprouting of tubular post signals really does it.

[ianLMS]

I try to model LMS late 1930's and very early war years. Gives a little flexibility on what i run and there should be plenty of kits around, just not always easy to find. Keep an eye on ebay for a cheap kit and you might get lucky.  Look forward to seeing your progress with whatever you get. The tools, detailing extras etc can be added to over time. In 2 years i have built up an extensive range of tools and spares. Some come from ebay, others from shows etc. 

 

Good luck and enjoy the experience!