On the Captain's Workbench - more panniers

[Metropolitan]

Funnily enough I've just begun building a new Metropolitan F Class using a Comet Dean Goods chassis kit as a starter for ten! It's been a while but I just can't believe how dead the loco kit building hobby has become? It's so hard to get any parts now? I have an etch to enable me to do another Met Class H but it looks as though I'm going to have to buy up loads of scrap kit built stuff to get the detailing parts I need such as chimneys, domes, smokebox doors, backheads etc, etc. What on earth has happened? It was such fun!

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Metropolitan said:

Funnily enough I've just begun building a new Metropolitan F Class using a Comet Dean Goods chassis kit as a starter for ten! It's been a while but I just can't believe how dead the loco kit building hobby has become? It's so hard to get any parts now? I have an etch to enable me to do another Met Class H but it looks as though I'm going to have to buy up loads of scrap kit built stuff to get the detailing parts I need such as chimneys, domes, smokebox doors, backheads etc, etc. What on earth has happened? It was such fun!

 

Don't South Eastern Finecast make the F Class with an etched chassis which is available separately? They will also supply the parts of the kits.

 

Personally I don't think the kit building part of the hobby has been healthier and quality has vastly improved. You've just need to know where to look!

 

 

Jason

[LaScala]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Don't South Eastern Finecast make the F Class with an etched chassis which is available separately? They will also supply the parts of the kits.

 

Personally I don't think the kit building part of the hobby has been healthier and quality has vastly improved. You've just need to know where to look!

 

 

Jason

Never been better and 3D is finally coming of age making multi media kits the gold standard, CAD compressing development time and increasing accuracy.  The numbers on this forum suggest it's a shrinking niche however and cost V RTR also an issue.  The rate of posting in this thread is half what it was in 2009.

[Metropolitan]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Don't South Eastern Finecast make the F Class with an etched chassis which is available separately? They will also supply the parts of the kits.

 

Personally I don't think the kit building part of the hobby has been healthier and quality has vastly improved. You've just need to know where to look!

 

 

Jason

Yes, SE Finecast do both an E and an F. But I expect the moulds are by now worn out? Anyway I do not think I'll be working with white metal anymore. Brass and nickel silver being more to my taste.  What I meant is that many of the old firms I used to use for detailing parts seem to be wound down or gone. There's still some old stock around but it doesn't seem to be being replaced? I believe Markits is still going, though I haven't been able to get through on the phone. Alan Doherty is still up for producing basic etches from drawings and I'm about to commission him to produce G Class if I can persuade the Sheffield Archives to send me a copy of the engineering drawings which are held there. They want me to visit to do it myself but it's such a trail. All they need to do is photo them on a phone and send them to me on WhatsApp but no, no, it's too much trouble..🥵
 

As for the black art of CAD I fear that that is beyond me. 

[Nick Lawson]

On 01/10/2023 at 05:13, DCB said:

Romfords and Markits with the ugly centre fastening

I've never tried using them, but Markits sell axle nut covers separately. Available from Wizard, possibly others.

[Carnforth]

45 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

I've never tried using them, but Markits sell axle nut covers separately. Available from Wizard, possibly others.

I dress the axles and nuts back slightly prior to assembly, then use an 1/8" punch on plastic film and sit the disc in the resulting slight rebate, fixed with black acrylic paint. Last job at final assembly.

[Captain Kernow]

On 01/10/2023 at 05:13, DCB said:

Looks good, but would it not have been better with the original Oxford wheels?  I have been changing many of my locos from Romfords and Markits with the ugly centre fastening to Hornby etc with a more prototypical axle end ? 

Various reasons for that.

 

First and foremost, the Markits RP25 profile suits my layout perfectly. There is some OO-SF pointwork, whick some RTR wheel profiles really don't like at all.

 

Without checking, I'm not sure what diameter axles Oxford uses on the Dean Goods, but in any case, I wanted to keep the chassis intact, for possible re-sale.

 

As regards the visible axle nuts, I agree that they are unsightly. I usually use the Markits axle end covers, albeit modified by cutting off the crankpin part of it, resulting in a circular section that is lightly glued over the axle end (which almost always has to be dressed down to achieve a smooth surface for the axle nut cover to sit on). The Dean Goods had this treatment subsequent to the photo in the thread, showing the uncovered axle nuts.

 

I have also made my own axle nut covers from paper or very thin plasticard in the past.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Captain Kernow

[Captain Kernow]

On 03/10/2023 at 08:10, Carnforth said:

I dress the axles and nuts back slightly prior to assembly, then use an 1/8" punch on plastic film and sit the disc in the resulting slight rebate, fixed with black acrylic paint. Last job at final assembly.

That's a neat solution, but where would one obtain an 1/8" punch from, please?

 

[Carnforth]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

That's a neat solution, but where would one obtain an 1/8" punch from, please?

 

I pinched the wifes, she says Amazon. Examples here.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Carnforth

[26power]

I think you need to look for a hollow punch.  Seem to be available in sets pretty cheaply but probably in mm.

[Carnforth]

Here ya go. Amazon, about £6. Various sizes available but this is 1/8". Discs collect in the sprung retaining cup.

[micklner]

Spooky looks like a Crocodile !! 🤪

[Captain Kernow]

Thanks for the very useful info on the 1/8"punch.

 

The current view on the workbench - a couple of P4 panniers (Bachmann) receiving additional detail. Both will be finished as Gloucester based locos. The nearer will be 7788, which retained it's GWR livery until withdrawal and is owned by Re6/6. The black one is mine and will be another 77XX. Both feature Ultrascale wheels on the existing Bachmann chassis. 

[Captain Kernow]

A brief update on the two P4 panniers, which actually dates from a few months ago now:

 

First of all, here is 7788, which is John F's loco @Re6/6:

 

 

 

Here again is John's 7788, alongside my 7741:

 

7788 was subsequently sent off to @Tom F to be properly weathered as per the prototype 7788 in the early 1960s, when it appeared in photos totally begrimed but with the 'GWR' still obviously legible on the tank sides.

 

I will weather 7741 myself, when the weather improves enough to use the shed.

 

Since the work on the above panniers, I've been busy doing work for our Scalefour area group 'D.R.A.G.', building some points for our new test track, doing some work for 'Balcombe Viaduct' and more recently, working on the two OO panniers I bought from Tony Wright, which will feature in due course.

 

Edited March 26 by Captain Kernow

[Captain Kernow]

The last few weeks have been spent working on the two OO whitemetal panniers, that I bought from @Tony Wright, (which he was selling on behalf of the builder and owner, Peter Lawson, with some of the monies going to Cancer Research UK).

 

Here are the two panniers, as received from Tony. One was built from a K's kit (9678 on the right), with 9681 on the left being a Nu Cast kit (but as far as I can ascertain, the Nu Cast castings seem very similar to the older K's ones and I believe that Nu Cast may have acquired the K's range).

 

Both locos were built very well and also ran nicely. Neither of them has the original mechanism, chassis or wheels. 9678 has a rigid chassis, possibly a Perseverance kit or similar, a large open-frame Anchorage motor directly driving a final drive gear on the axle. It has Alan Gibson wheels and has been weathered.

 

9681 also seems to have the same chassis and motor combination, although the motor is attached to a simple gearbox, but has the same direct drive relationship to the final drive gear as the other loco. The chassis is, however, compensated with single beam compensation. It also has the older type of Romford driving wheels, with the larger flanges and is in a more 'ex-works' condition.

 

Having test-run them on 'Bethesda Sidings' (which is where they will mostly be employed), I established that certain tasks needed to be done, before they could be put 'in service'.

 

The back-to-backs on the Gibson wheels on 9678 varied between 14.5mm and 15mm and the wider b2b did not like the small portion of OO-SF on 'Bethesda Sidings' (just like certain recent RTR releases), yet another reason to regret building that crossover to those standards. As such, the back-to-backs would have to be narrowed to 14.5mm.

 

The older Romford flanges on the wheels of 9681 did not like the older pattern C&L flexi-track that I used on Bethesda Sidings. I still have some stocks of this track, dating back some 30 years and used some of those stocks when I built the layout. In the past, I had a friend who simply turned the older flanges down on his lathe. More recently, the finer RP25 profile of more recent Markits wheels ensures that this is no longer a problem.

 

So, I'd have to somehow deal with the flanges on 9681, if I wanted to use it on Bethesda Sidings. My lathe is not set up at the moment, so I undertook an experimental turning down of another older Romford wheel, using an electric drill, a file and wet & dry paper and appropriate PPE. This worked, so that would mean that all the wheels on 9681 would have to be removed in turn, turned down and replaced in their former position on the chassis.

 

Although both locos were finished to a very good standard, there were also a few additional details that I decided I would add, such as lamp irons, sandpipes and the injector pipes under the cab steps.

 

Both locos were numbered as locos based in South Wales sheds during my time frame, so re-numbering was called for. This would also enable me to re-locate the smokebox door numbers to the correct position, level with the top door hinge.

 

As such, 9678 would become 9629 (Croes Newydd) and 9681 would become 9741 (Shrewsbury).

 

The work on the K's/Gibson 9629 is outlined in a blog post here - 

 

I'll outline the work on Nu Cast/Romford 9741 in the next post.

 

 

[hayfield]

Captain Kernow

 

Very nicely weathered, I think these kits are one of the same with K's kits being absorbed into the NuCast range. The 57xx from K's could be ordered with the earlier (flat) cab and round windows, I think I have a couple stashed away 

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

Very nicely weathered, I think these kits are one of the same with K's kits being absorbed into the NuCast range. The 57xx from K's could be ordered with the earlier (flat) cab and round windows, I think I have a couple stashed away

You are correct, John. Since writing the above post, I checked in my copy of the History of loco kits book, which also states that in 1995, Nu Cast introduced a new etched chassis for the 57XX/8750 and I think that this is what my 9741 has.

 

[Captain Kernow]

Another picture of 9629 (new number - the K's one) on the layout:

 

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

The work on 9741 (new number) started once 9629 (new number) was finished.

 

First of all, I had to remove each driving wheel and turn the flanges down on the electric drill, using a file and some wet & dry paper (plus proper eye protection).

 

Before I could do that, I removed the side rods. Thinking that I would be replacing all the Romford crankpins with new ones, I snipped each soldered washer off, to remove the rods. Then each wheel was removed from it's axle. This was easier said than done, as the builder had glued each wheel to the axle end, prior to adding the Romford crankpin nut. The rationale behind this is easy to understand, as these locos in all likelihood did a fair amount of mileage on the builder's layout. I've had a crankpin nut work loose on the rolling road, so it is a fair precaution, if you don't think you will ever need to take the chassis apart again.

 

However, firm and sustained effort with a Romford axle nut screwdriver was able to loosen each individual axle nut in turn.

 

 

Using the file in this way proved to be surprisingly effective and it did not take long to remove sufficient metal to achieve the profile I was after.

 

The following photo shows a newly turned-down wheel on the left, an untouched wheel in the centre and by way of comparison, a new modern Markits wheel of the same diameter on the right:

 

Here is one complete re-profiled wheelset made up for photographic purposes:

 

The old crankpins had also been glued into the wheels as well. Four of them yielded to firm effort with a pair of pliers and came loose (they were the old pattern, so the Romford screwdriver could not be used).

 

Unfortunately, the remaining two broke off close to the surface of the wheel and rendered the wheel unusable (for the moment, at least).

 

As such, I decided to 'mix and match', using the four wheels I had salvaged and reprofiled, together with two of the new Markits wheels.

 

Once the reprofiled or replacement wheels had been reattached to their axles, I set about sorting out the crankpins on the side rods. I have my own peculiar way of doing this, so that I end up with a thin slot across the face of the crankpin nut, which (I find) helps enormously in screwing the side rods on to and off the wheels. The following series of photos best illustrate what I mean. The thin card is to protect the screw thread on the crankpin:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 'screw slot' is cut using a fine piercing saw blade:

 

More in next post.

 

[Captain Kernow]

Here is one set of side rods, with the new crankpins in place:

 

And then mounted back on the wheels:

 

It was at this point, that I realised my huge mistake...

 

First of all, on the original chassis, the wheels on one side were non-insulated and I had mixed and matched all four of the original wheels and thus introduced a permanent short circuit.

 

Also, with the two new Markits wheels, I quickly realised that the crank throw of the old and new wheels varied. The old wheels were 'generic', whereas the new ones were specifically marketed as being suitable for 57XX panniers. So even once I had sorted out the short circuit, the chassis jammed up solid after only a quarter turn of the wheels...

 

Until I found a way to remove the broken-off old crankpins from the remaining two Romford wheels, I had no choice but to install all the new Markits wheels and put the old ones to one side.

 

This took a little time, as all six of the new wheels were insulated, so new pick ups had to be provided for that side of the chassis.

 

Eventually it was all done and the chassis was tested and found to still be running smoothly:

 

 

A spell on the rolling road followed:

 

It was then time to paint the new wheels.

 

The original balance weights were removed from the old driving wheels, cleaned up and epoxied to the new wheels.

 

The wheels were then mounted in two bits of card, as per the photos, each according to which side they came from and their respective positions in the chassis. This was so that I would put each wheel back in exactly the same position it had occupied when I tested the chassis.

 

The wheels were then sprayed, first of all with Halfords red oxide primer, then with a matt black. Once the black had dried thoroughly, each wheel was individually brush weathered with a mix of Humbrol and Railmatch enamels and allowed to dry again.

 

Then it was a case of removing each wheel in turn, re-mounting it on a spare axle and putting it in the electric drill. The drill was started up and cotton buds, slightly dampened with cellulose thinners were used to remove all dried paint deposits from the wheel treads. If I'm careful when I do this, I usually end up with a nice, crisp delineation between the painted front of the wheels and the actual treads.

 

Here are the repainted wheels mounted back on the chassis:

 

 

The chassis had been brush-weathered in the meantime.

 

After that, I used a mix of enamel paints and weathering powders to provide some basic weathering for the loco body.

 

Replacement numberplates were added (the location of the old ones had been cleaned up, smoothed off and repainted black to match the livery). The cab side plates are from 247 Developments and the smokebox door plate is a piece of 05 thou black plasticard, with a Pacific Models paper number affixed to it. Here is the finished loco on the layout:

 

 

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

Here is a comparison between the two locos when they first arrived and after work on them:

 

 

 

As I said previously, these locos were very well built to begin with and I'm very pleased with the end result of my work.

 

They may not be quite as detailed as the modern Bachmann equivalent, but they're also not that far behind either. What they do have, however, is plenty of character and 'presence'. They are also, of course, rather heavier than the Bachmann ones!

 

Looking ahead, no doubt the Accurascale panniers will offer even more refined levels of detail but in all likelihood, will probably not offer as much potential for such satisfying work as these two have.

 

[46444]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Here is a comparison between the two locos when they first arrived and after work on them:

 

 

 

As I said previously, these locos were very well built to begin with and I'm very pleased with the end result of my work.

 

They may not be quite as detailed as the modern Bachmann equivalent, but they're also not that far behind either. What they do have, however, is plenty of character and 'presence'. They are also, of course, rather heavier than the Bachmann ones!

 

Looking ahead, no doubt the Accurascale panniers will offer even more refined levels of detail but in all likelihood, will probably not offer as much potential for such satisfying work as these two have.

 

 

Very nice work CK and a sympathetic restoration of the original build.

 

They certainly capture the presence of a 8750 nicely. Thanks for sharing the rebuild of this pair.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

[Captain Kernow]

I meant to add a short video I took of 9741 shunting, so here it is:

 

 

[AJCT]

9 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

I meant to add a short video I took of 9741 shunting, so here it is:

 

 

Nice background music there, Captain - adds a touch of class to your shunting cameo.  What is it - Ludovico Einaudi?

[Captain Kernow]

4 minutes ago, AJCT said:

Nice background music there, Captain - adds a touch of class to your shunting cameo.  What is it - Ludovico Einaudi?

To be honest, I don't think it's Einaudi, it's something that YouTube offered for free as background music and it seemed pleasant and about the same length as my clip...