Llanbourne North Wales in the 80s.

[RBE]

Yes I still can't believe that Bachmann/Farish don't provide 20's already in pairs as a powered and dummy!!

[SRman]

Hi Jeff,

Bachmann v 3.5 re blown with Biffs sound.

 

Usually those should work very well together. If you change them both to use a speed table, you can fine tune the behaviours, although that will take a fair bit of time and fiddling about with the settings. I use JMRI Decoder Pro for such things as one can adjust the speed steps using sliders then just tell it to write the settings to a decoder.

[MarshLane]

Hi Peter,

I think we need to work out exactly where the problem lies before playing with CVs. Once you know which loco or decoder is causing the issue, then it should be easier to narrow down the problem.

 

Rich

[P.C.M]

Usually those should work very well together. If you change them both to use a speed table, you can fine tune the behaviours, although that will take a fair bit of time and fiddling about with the settings. I use JMRI Decoder Pro for such things as one can adjust the speed steps using sliders then just tell it to write the settings to a decoder.

Hi Jeff, I have had another play and still no luck. Am I adjusting the right CVs ?

 

Cheers Peter.

[P.C.M]

Hi Peter,

I think we need to work out exactly where the problem lies before playing with CVs. Once you know which loco or decoder is causing the issue, then it should be easier to narrow down the problem.

 

Rich

Hi Rich,

Both loco's run fine on their own so I am sure it's just decoders that need matching. 

 

Cheers Peter.

[MarshLane]

Hi Peter,

Ah ok, sorry didn't realise that. Ok. So the problem is that you cannot get the two matched up? I believe there is a way of doing a factory reset on the decoders, which doesn't remove sounds just puts the decoder back to how it was. That might be the best start then you know both decoders are identical.

 

Rich

[SRman]

Hi Jeff, I have had another play and still no luck. Am I adjusting the right CVs ?

 

Cheers Peter.

 

Yes, I think you were.

 

CV2 start volts, CV5 max volts (top speed), CV6 mid-volts (mid-speed), CV3 acceleration rate, CV4 deceleration rate. They're the simple ones to try to match things up. 

 

As Rich said above, you could reset both of them, then start with CV2 to get them moving on the same speed step (ideally step 1 or 2), change CVs 3 and 4 to 1 after first noting their original values, then match top speed using CV5. After that, play with the values in CV6 to match the mid-speeds, then restore CVs 3 and 4 to the same values (either the default values you wrote down, or new values you prefer).

 

Also, make sure both are running on 128 speed steps on the Power Cab, before trying to consist them again.

 

The reason for reducing CVs 3 and 4 while setting the top and mid-speeds is so they both reach those speeds before running off the end of your layout!

[P.C.M]

Hi Peter,

Ah ok, sorry didn't realise that. Ok. So the problem is that you cannot get the two matched up? I believe there is a way of doing a factory reset on the decoders, which doesn't remove sounds just puts the decoder back to how it was. That might be the best start then you know both decoders are identical.

 

Rich

Hi Rich,

No worries, I might not have made that clear in my first post. Before tweeking anything I went through CVs 2,3,4,5,6, and both loco's had the same settings. I have lowered CV3 and CV5 to slow one loco and even raised those CVs on the other loco. but can't quite get them to match up.

 

Cheers Peter

[P.C.M]

 

Yes, I think you were.

 

CV2 start volts, CV5 max volts (top speed), CV6 mid-volts (mid-speed), CV3 acceleration rate, CV4 deceleration rate. They're the simple ones to try to match things up. 

 

As Rich said above, you could reset both of them, then start with CV2 to get them moving on the same speed step (ideally step 1 or 2), change CVs 3 and 4 to 1 after first noting their original values, then match top speed using CV5. After that, play with the values in CV6 to match the mid-speeds, then restore CVs 3 and 4 to the same values (either the default values you wrote down, or new values you prefer).

 

Also, make sure both are running on 128 speed steps on the Power Cab, before trying to consist them again.

 

The reason for reducing CVs 3 and 4 while setting the top and mid-speeds is so they both reach those speeds before running off the end of your layout!

I think I have missed something here. When I set the CVs the loco isn't moving. Are you saying I have to get them moving to set the CVs? 

 

I have been changing CVs then stting up the Consist to see how they run together.

 

Cheers Peter.

[MRDBLUE17]

Hi Peter,

 

Fantastic photos looks like you have had some fun operating lately. Some really nice workings and that shot of the 47 rounding the curve looks great.

 

As for CV's a couple of things to try that might work. Instead of running as a consist give both the same address. I've done that with a few locos one Howes pair the other 2 pairs with Bifs and that seems to get the smoothest running.

The other thing is set the CV's the same as you have done and just alter the top speed value on one of them if possible I have them running a few inches apart on the main whilst doing this to try and match visually.

 

Hope that might help.

 

All the best

Mark

[SRman]

I think I have missed something here. When I set the CVs the loco isn't moving. Are you saying I have to get them moving to set the CVs? 

 

I have been changing CVs then stting up the Consist to see how they run together.

 

Cheers Peter.

 

Hi Peter. No, that's not quite what I meant. CV2 sets the start voltage. What you need is to get both of them to just start moving on the same speed step on the controller, so adjusting CV2 up or down on each loco will allow you to do that. My suggestion is to have them both on the track and set them moving at the same time - ideally with two cabs if you have them. It's a little more cumbersome if you have to use the NCE recall but it can be done.

 

Once you have some initial values you can read off the programming track, you can reprogram the locos on the fly using Programming on the Main (POM). The Power Cab will remember and show you the last value you entered, but cannot read back while using POM.

 

As an example, you could set speed step 1 on the Power Cab and if the loco doesn't move, press esc then enter for the first choice (POM), select the loco number, then choose CV2 and bump the number up slightly - I usually choose increments of 3, before homing in on a usable value that gets the loco just inching along on speed step 1. Repeat for the second loco.

 

I have seen it written elsewhere that some modellers have to disable BEMF settings to reduce locos 'fighting' each other while using consists, but I have never found this necessary myself.

[P.C.M]

Hi Peter,

 

Fantastic photos looks like you have had some fun operating lately. Some really nice workings and that shot of the 47 rounding the curve looks great.

 

As for CV's a couple of things to try that might work. Instead of running as a consist give both the same address. I've done that with a few locos one Howes pair the other 2 pairs with Bifs and that seems to get the smoothest running.

The other thing is set the CV's the same as you have done and just alter the top speed value on one of them if possible I have them running a few inches apart on the main whilst doing this to try and match visually.

 

Hope that might help.

 

All the best

Mark

Thanks Mark,

I did try the same address the other week when I tried double heading I might give it another go now I have changed a few CVs. 

 

Cheers Peter.

[P.C.M]

Hi Peter. No, that's not quite what I meant. CV2 sets the start voltage. What you need is to get both of them to just start moving on the same speed step on the controller, so adjusting CV2 up or down on each loco will allow you to do that. My suggestion is to have them both on the track and set them moving at the same time - ideally with two cabs if you have them. It's a little more cumbersome if you have to use the NCE recall but it can be done.

 

Once you have some initial values you can read off the programming track, you can reprogram the locos on the fly using Programming on the Main (POM). The Power Cab will remember and show you the last value you entered, but cannot read back while using POM.

 

As an example, you could set speed step 1 on the Power Cab and if the loco doesn't move, press esc then enter for the first choice (POM), select the loco number, then choose CV2 and bump the number up slightly - I usually choose increments of 3, before homing in on a usable value that gets the loco just inching along on speed step 1. Repeat for the second loco.

 

I have seen it written elsewhere that some modellers have to disable BEMF settings to reduce locos 'fighting' each other while using consists, but I have never found this necessary myself.

Thanks Again Jeff,

I will give it a go later tonight if I get a chance to go out to the garage.

 

Cheers Peter.

[P.C.M]

Here is a shunting question. Now back in the day I was a shunter for a while, but I am not sure if this would be allowed.

 

So here goes. The 20s arrive at the oil terminal make up the train pull down then wait for a signal to. And here is the question, push the train back to the loop in the station through the tunnel.

 

Cheers Peter.

Edited January 21, 2017 by P.C.M

[Andrew P]

Here is a shunting question. Now back in the day I was a shunter for a while, but I am not sure if this would be allowed.

 

So here goes. The 20s arrive at the oil terminal make up the train pull down then wait for a signal to. And here is the question, push the train back to the loop in the station through the tunnel.

 

Cheers Peter.

I cant answer the question Peter, but thanks for a lovely pic.

[MarshLane]

Here is a shunting question. Now back in the day I was a shunter for a while, but I am not sure if this would be allowed.

 

So here goes. The 20s arrive at the oil terminal make up the train pull down then wait for a signal to. And here is the question, push the train back to the loop in the station through the tunnel.

 

Cheers Peter.

Hi Peter,

It would depend on the distance, local instructions/restrictions and whether it was a signalled move at all?

 

What's the purpose of pushing back into the station? Could you not work wrong line into the station then run-round in the loop?

 

Rich

Edited January 21, 2017 by MarshLane

[bescotbeast]

Hi Peter,

It would depend on the distance, local instructions/restrictions and whether it was a signalled move at all?

 

What's the purpose of pushing back into the station? Could you not work wrong line into the station then run-round in the loop?

 

Rich

As Rich says it's all down to the "local instructions" which covered all these kind of occasional moves. With you having a tunnel, my guess is it would be frowned upon or a length/weather restriction would be included on the move i.e "no more than 8 SLU's and not to be carried out in fog or falling snow".

Might be worth you digging out an old Sectional Appendix and see what you can find from reading the local instructions included.

[P.C.M]

Hi Peter,

It would depend on the distance, local instructions/restrictions and whether it was a signalled move at all?

 

What's the purpose of pushing back into the station? Could you not work wrong line into the station then run-round in the loop?

 

Rich

Thanks Rich,

I could work wrong line into the loop and run round. I normally use an 08 to pick up the tanks and run back to the station where the 20s would then go on the train, my class 08 was playing up so I was using the class 20s and thought I would do things differently which got me thinking would it be a move I could put into my timetable.

 

I was doing the same with ECS moves the other day too. Using the train loco to push out of the carriage sidings. 

 

Cheers Peter.

[P.C.M]

As Rich says it's all down to the "local instructions" which covered all these kind of occasional moves. With you having a tunnel, my guess is it would be frowned upon or a length/weather restriction would be included on the move i.e "no more than 8 SLU's and not to be carried out in fog or falling snow".

Might be worth you digging out an old Sectional Appendix and see what you can find from reading the local instructions included.

Thanks Simon,

I guess there would be local instructions and pushing through a tunnel would certainly have some rules applied.

 

Cheers Peter.

[P.C.M]

So not a good night in the garage. While trying to get two class 25s to run together I seem to have blown a chip in one of my 108 DMUs. I thought it was isolated but well it wasn't because it moved, and now it doesn't work at all it's now in bits. To top this off I still can't get the 25s to run together, I have them really close but one seems to revert back to 000 on CV3 when I break the consist. I have to say I am a little over it. 

 

DCC wasn't meant to be this hard so I will really have to look at how much I want sound fitted diesels because at the moment I would be quite happy to sell up and go back to DC. This might sound a bit silly but I like to enjoy my hobby and playing with CVs for an evening is not my idea of fun and when you have a decoder fail on a unit that was running well and now have to spend more money on buying another decoder it really does make me wonder why I bother.

 

Anyway rant over.

 

Cheers Peter.

[bescotbeast]

Thanks Simon,

I guess there would be local instructions and pushing through a tunnel would certainly have some rules applied.

 

Cheers Peter.

I've got a fair few LMR Sectional Apendixes in my collection, I'm sure I've got one for 1984, I'll see if I can dig it out and see if there is anything comparable.

[aussiebrfan]

So not a good night in the garage. While trying to get two class 25s to run together I seem to have blown a chip in one of my 108 DMUs. I thought it was isolated but well it wasn't because it moved, and now it doesn't work at all it's now in bits. To top this off I still can't get the 25s to run together, I have them really close but one seems to revert back to 000 on CV3 when I break the consist. I have to say I am a little over it. 

 

DCC wasn't meant to be this hard so I will really have to look at how much I want sound fitted diesels because at the moment I would be quite happy to sell up and go back to DC. This might sound a bit silly but I like to enjoy my hobby and playing with CVs for an evening is not my idea of fun and when you have a decoder fail on a unit that was running well and now have to spend more money on buying another decoder it really does make me wonder why I bother.

 

Anyway rant over.

 

Cheers Peter.

 

Hey Peter,

 

Sorry to hear you not having fun out there. Probably silly question but if the 108 wasnt isolated and you were changing settings on the 25s then would you also be changing settings on the 108?. You probably have already but did you try a factory reset or checking the address to see if its changed inadvertently.

Hope you can work it out, speak to you soon.

 

Glenn

 

PS. Photos of the 20s  look awesome.

[MarshLane]

Thanks Rich,

I could work wrong line into the loop and run round. I normally use an 08 to pick up the tanks and run back to the station where the 20s would then go on the train, my class 08 was playing up so I was using the class 20s and thought I would do things differently which got me thinking would it be a move I could put into my timetable.

 

I was doing the same with ECS moves the other day too. Using the train loco to push out of the carriage sidings. 

 

Cheers Peter.

Hi Peter,

As Simon says the tunnel would no doubt impose restrictions. ECS stock is different because the guard can ride in the leading vehicle and be the drivers eyes, either through hand signals or gestures with a bardic lamp. Today of course there would be a set of radios in the station or signal box which the guard would collect and hand one to the driver, allowing verbal communication. It would still need to be a fully signalled move however. Any variations from signalled moves would be out of course of emergency only, and invariably need to be signed off and agreed by the local ops manager.

 

Depending on which end of the train your 08 ends up on from the fuel sidings, there could be a wrong line signalled move with ground signals specifically into the loop.

 

Sorry to hear your 25s still aren't playing well. If it was me I would keep them separate and add a third dummy to run as a pair (you could still fit it with a sound decoder ata later date), but either way, allocated them defective to Crewe Works for a fortnight, have some evenings running trains, forget about them and enjoy the wonderfully superb layout you have!

 

Rich

[P.C.M]

I've got a fair few LMR Sectional Apendixes in my collection, I'm sure I've got one for 1984, I'll see if I can dig it out and see if there is anything comparable.

Thanks mate.

[P.C.M]

Hey Peter,

 

Sorry to hear you not having fun out there. Probably silly question but if the 108 wasnt isolated and you were changing settings on the 25s then would you also be changing settings on the 108?. You probably have already but did you try a factory reset or checking the address to see if its changed inadvertently.

Hope you can work it out, speak to you soon.

 

Glenn

 

PS. Photos of the 20s  look awesome.

Hi Glenn,

That's what happen'd while I was playing with settings on the class 25s I was doing it to the DMU. I tried to reset the DMU and change the address but its dead. I took the body off and checked the decoder and some plastic has melted off the back so I would say it fried itself while I was wasting my time on the class 25s. All in all a good night.

 

Cheers Peter.