The Night Mail

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Philou said:

Before the Coryton Interchange was built, one of my duties as the Lab Technician at the Bishop of Llandaff HS, was to go Melingriffith (one 'l' not two as I have been writing) alongside the Taff and then onto the former Glamorgan Canal and fish some Elodea Canadensis (pond weed) from it for biology studies (oxygen from plants). The samples were enormously long! If it was a nice day, I didn't need to be told twice!!!

 

 

As a tyro secondary science teacher, I've tried the pond weed experiment, despite much wagging of heads and assurances it wouldn't work from the technicians.

 

It didn't work. Probably becasue it was a physicist trying to do it.

[The Johnster]

On 13/08/2020 at 15:43, Happy Hippo said:

 

My favourite name was Upper Boat on the old ex Cardiff railway.

The Glamorganshire Canal was of different lock dimensions below this point and goods travelling north transferred from the larger 'Lower Boat' to the 'Upper Boat, though it was of course possible for an Upper Boat to travel the full length of the canal and the Aberdare branch.

Edited August 14, 2020 by The Johnster

[Philou]

14 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The Glamorganshire Canal was of different lock dimensions below this point and goods travelling north transferred from the larger 'Lower Boat' to the 'Upper Boat, though it was of course possible for an Upper Boat to travel the full length of the canal and the Aberdare branch.

 

Your having us on again, Mr Johnster, and I quote from that organ of veritude, Wikipedia:

 

'The location which is now referred to as Upper Boat was once a ferry point over the River Taff. There were three major ferrying points over the river, one at Taff's Well, a second at Willowford, and the 'upper boat' was moored where today the Upper Boat Inn is located.'

 

You really are being naughty - good try though .

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[The Johnster]

On 13/08/2020 at 11:25, Happy Hippo said:

 

Passenger trains on the freight only line over the viaduct were restricted to summer weekend excursions, very often hauled by ex LNWR locos.

It was used by freight and AFAIK never had a regular passenger service over it; of the lines that converged at Penrhos only the P,C,& N had regular booked timetable passenger trains, but as you rightly say the viaduct was used by excursion traffic from Tredegar, routed via Bird in Hand and Maesycwmmer, then the Rhymney from Hengoed to Aber to run on the Barry thence.  G2a 0-8-0 tender locos were used, tender first on the outward journeys.

 

On 13/08/2020 at 13:36, Philou said:

 

The link line was put in to serve a new mine - but it didn't last very long.

Long enough to put paid to the stub of the Cardiff beyond Coryton.  The 'new' mine actually dated from 1910 but had been abandoned just before the Second War.  It had been taken over by the Ministry of Supply and Works in 1946 and work begun to develop the workings as a deep mine and attached coking ovens, handed to the newly formed NCB in 1947.  It closed in 1986, and the worsening condition of the virtually derelict Cardiff between it and Coryton led to the building of the new link opened in 1952.  This meant that the workings were taken over by Radyr men from East Dock men, but a frequent performer from both sheds was Cardiff Railway 155, a large 0-6-2T reboilered by the GW with sloping tanks J50 style, reckoned to be the most powerful 0-6-2T in the country. 

 

The mine bottomed out at more than 2,000 feet below sea level, and was the deepest in the South Wales coalfield.  It linked underground with the Lady Windsor mine in Abertridwr in the next valley over.  It had, in the 60s, 3 'Austerity' type saddle tank locos, and a gent that I later worked with in the Post Office was one of the fitters.  Known as 'Tommy Horizontal' for his habit of 'resting his eyes' on nights, he one night got down to a bit of a zooze in the mess cabin having left a loco with a fire in it in reverse gear.  He was awakened about an hour later by the noise of it demolishing the rear wall of the loco shed and moving slowly past the mess cabin with a bunker full of bricks, ending his NCB career.

 

Alongside the coke ovens was a piece of rough ground where the underground locomotives were tested and drivers trained on a few hundred yards of narrow gauge track, and as the main A470 trunk road passed this spot it was sometimes possible to watch the fun while you drove past.  Lots of switchbacks and tight bends to put the locos and the drivers through their paces; I believe it was the training centre for the whole coalfield.

On 13/08/2020 at 15:38, Stubby47 said:

What was the reason for using those (0-6-2), instead of a 2-6-2 in South Wales?

In pregrouping days, the GW did use prairies both small and large on their South Wales valleys routes, but the independent companies had largely adopted 0-6-2T types by the grouping.  They were simple and robust 6-coupled inside cylinder tanks with the trailing wheel enabling a large enough bunker for a day's work, and were normally worked chimney first up the valleys and bunker first down.  Typical on each railway was a common boiler, engine and frame with 3 different sizes of driving wheels, a 5'2" or ball park for passenger work, a 4'6" ball park for general freight, and 4' ball park for heavy mineral work.  

 

This was done in South Wales by the dark art of 'incline working', a system where the same number of wagons that can be hauled up the valley as empties can be hauled down loaded without the train running away, most of the time at least... the principle was to stop at the top of a gradient, then pull the train on to it slowly while the guard, assisted in some places by a brakesman, who pinned down the wagons' handbrake levers with brake sticks until the driver thought he had enough to control the train on the gradient, which he did by pulling the train down against the brakes.  What could possibly ever go wrong?  This method of working was still being used in the early 1980s...

 

The 56xx was a development by Collett of the Rhymney R class 0-6-2T, vacuum braked for passenger working and with 4'7" driving wheels, an inch larger than the R.  The majority of the class were allox to South Wales sheds, with some in the West Midlands and IIRC one or two at Gloucester and Bristol, but they seem not to have followed the 42/52xx tanks to Cornwall for the china clay trains.  I have no idea why this should be.

 

Large Praires were used by the GW postwar to replace time-served Taff Vale A class passenger 0-6-2Ts, and this process was continued in the early 50s with BR standard 3MT prairies.  By and large up to this point the pre-grouping independent locos stayed on what had been independent routes, but not necessarily their original ones, while the GW prairies large and small, along with the 2-8-0 tanks, remained on original GW routes, while 56xx were distributed throughout the area, as were the various panniers.

 

In 1953, a new timetable featuring an increased number of auto workings was introduced in South Wales, and in view of the gradients some 4575 small prairies were fitted with auto gear and set to work; these were the next available locos passing through Swindon and were not in any numerical order; this did result in an increased proportion of small prairies in South Wales.

[The Johnster]

47 minutes ago, Philou said:

 

Your having us on again, Mr Johnster, and I quote from that organ of veritude, Wikipedia:

 

'The location which is now referred to as Upper Boat was once a ferry point over the River Taff. There were three major ferrying points over the river, one at Taff's Well, a second at Willowford, and the 'upper boat' was moored where today the Upper Boat Inn is located.'

 

You really are being naughty - good try though .

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Curses, foiled again, go get 'em, Muttley...

 

The Tommy Horizontal story is true, though.

[bbishop]

Gentlemen,  I'm at Waterloo tomorrow - plenty of gossip please.

 

Bill

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, Philou said:

As a yoof, I remember a rather large watertower on the edge of Cardiff city centre adjoining the 'Dowlais' steelworks site that was spread east of the docks. (The Dowlais name coming from when the steelworks moved from Dowlais in Merthyr to Cardiff East Moors). The name emblazoned upon the tower was GKIS (no N) that I assume was Guest Keen Iron and Steel - when it became GKN, I don't know. I think it may have changed names a few times before finally closing down.

The 'Dowlais' closed in 1978, and the 'dozers moved in immediately.  I lived in a flat in Hinton Street, Splott, edge of the world at the time, and each Sunday was enlivened by another blast furnace being pulled down by something big with big chains, after the base had been cut about a bit.  During the following winter, Splott was biblically plagued by starlings, who had previously overwintered in the works for the warmth, but in a year or two they'd dispersed, or died.

 

The water tower you mention is prominent in photos of the time, and not just photos of the works either; it was on the northern perimeter of the site just behind GKN's office block in Tyndall Street.  There was a strike protesting the closure (British Steel were in charge by then and doing what that nice Mr Callaghan told them, or was it the other way about, shouldn't be rude about big Jim, he bought me a beer once at a do in Bindles, or rather ordered one of his running dogs to), and one of the strikers climbed the tower and installed himself up there for a week or so.  All to no avail of  course.  It was a landmark that could be seen from all over the city and further afield, and had neon lights on it depending on period, GKN, GKIS, BSC.

[Philou]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I've tried the pond weed experiment, despite much wagging of heads and assurances it wouldn't work from the technicians.

 

Well, when I was the teccy, there were two ways of ensuring that it did work a) plenty of lighting all around the sample in its tube, and left on overnight, or b) introduce some oxygen from a bottle before anyone noticed. My experiments always worked!! . Did I tell you the story of some finely ground silver nitrate, finely divided magnesium powder, a drop of water and a very black faced chemistry teacher - all during morning assembly? No?  .........................................

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Stubby47]

@The Johnster Thanks for your reply, most informative.

I guess Rule 1 could be applied when using my 56xx on my supposedly St Austell area ish T-CATS layout, when in the early BR steam guise.

[Philou]

The real edge of the world was Menelaus Street in Splott. You couldn't get any closer to the Dowlais works. I think that part of Splott was gone in the 70s.

 

Not leaving Cardiff, but returning to a railway theme, here's an interesting picture that I'm sure would make a nice model. It's a Cardiff Railway twin-car SMU:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[The Johnster]

On 13/08/2020 at 21:17, Philou said:

and a photo of 'Emerald Isle' belonging to the Mellingriffith works that I think is a Peckett. The quality is poor:

 

15 hours ago, Philou said:

 

Here is 'Princess May', an 0-4-0ST loco (of unknown provenance to me), 'one of the locos' used at the Gwaelod-y-Garth foundry, so the name Gwaelod-y-Garth was also in use in the early days. I've just noticed that in the background of the photo it says 'Keen & Nettlefolds'. Were these small ironworks part of the GKN group?

The photo of 'Emerald Isle', a Peckett, is I think the one on the information display board on the 'Taff Trail' at Radyr Weir close to where the Melingriffith tramroad left the route of the modern cycle trail and follows the feeder, which Radyr Weir provides the head for, towards the canal and the Melingriffith Works.  

 

'Princess May' looks very much to me like an Andrew Barclay.  Pecketts and Avonsides were popular in South Wales as you''d expect, but Andrew Barclay made something of a name for themselves in the area as well, which is perhaps surprising.  Kilmarnock is a lot further away than Bristol.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

The real edge of the world was Menelaus Street in Splott. You couldn't get any closer to the Dowlais works. I think that part of Splott was gone in the 70s.

 

Not leaving Cardiff, but returning to a railway theme, here's an interesting picture that I'm sure would make a nice model. It's a Cardiff Railway twin-car SMU:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

It was all still there when I lived down there (77-81), but the houses weren't, by which I mean that the grid of streets that Menelaus and that part around Swansea Street goods depot had all been demolished but the actual streets, the road surfaces, were still there, looking like some of the photos you see of Hiroshima after the bomb.  Hinton Street was the last street with houses then, the end of where people lived and the start of the 'outlands', where mutants roamed thirsting for human blood.  There was an amazing amount of absolutely all past my flat (and not much to write home about inside if I'm honest); there was a library, primary school,  and playground opposite me (they're still there, apart from the library, a block of derelict houses opposite that, and then it was just Hiroshima time all the way down to Stonefields Jc.  On the east, the area was bounded by the Tidal/Marshalling Sidings complex, to the south Stonefields, and to the west by the steelworks boundary wall, and Lewis Road.

[Happy Hippo]

I found a picture taken from a steel viaduct ganger's catwalk.

 

Sadly not Walnut tree but Crumlin.

 

I'll scan it and post later today.

 

At least it will give Philip some idea of what he is trying to achieve in 4 mm as I'm pretty sure they would have been very similar in design.

[tomparryharry]

49 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

The photo of 'Emerald Isle', a Peckett, is I think the one on the information display board on the 'Taff Trail' at Radyr Weir close to where the Melingriffith tramroad left the route of the modern cycle trail and follows the feeder, which Radyr Weir provides the head for, towards the canal and the Melingriffith Works.  

 

'Princess May' looks very much to me like an Andrew Barclay.  Pecketts and Avonsides were popular in South Wales as you''d expect, but Andrew Barclay made something of a name for themselves in the area as well, which is perhaps surprising.  Kilmarnock is a lot further away than Bristol.

10/10, young Johnster. it is, indeed, an Andrew Barclay. Going by the photo, I'd suggest it's a type 52A 12" 0-4-0 variety. 

 

Quick! Where's my anorak?

[chrisf]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 G2a 0-8-0 tender locos were used, tender first on the outward journeys.

 

No.  They were turned at Barry via the low level dock lines and showed their '056' reporting number proudly in both directions.

 

Chris 

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, chrisf said:

 

No.  They were turned at Barry via the low level dock lines and showed their '056' reporting number proudly in both directions.

 

Chris 

Good moaning Chris, good to see you in this part of the world.

 

Jamie

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Good moaning Chris, good to see you in this part of the world.

 

Jamie

I knew we'd lure Chris here:  He has a very good nose for sniffing out anything remotely concerning Welsh railways.

[Happy Hippo]

As promised:  The Crumlin viaduct Ganger's walkway picture.  (Taken from HC Casserley's 'Wales and the Welsh Border Counties.')

[tomparryharry]

11 hours ago, Philou said:

 

Your having us on again, Mr Johnster, and I quote from that organ of veritude, Wikipedia:

 

'The location which is now referred to as Upper Boat was once a ferry point over the River Taff. There were three major ferrying points over the river, one at Taff's Well, a second at Willowford, and the 'upper boat' was moored where today the Upper Boat Inn is located.'

 

You really are being naughty - good try though .

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

Hello Phil. a slight addendum, if I may. 

 

Willowford and Upper Boat are both one & same:- As far as as area is -are concerned. The term 'Upper Boat' was a Glamorganshire  Canal  reference to the area. For those talking about the railway, it's wise to remember that the canal arrived first, and the railway a definite second. More research is required, but I'm pretty sure that Willowford is the area where the incline from Thomas Powells tramroad reached the bottom, and became level. The A 473 junction on the Treforest Estate bridge is a straight line from there, over to the bridge where the Taff Vale Railway abuts, hence the bridge we spoke about earlier.  Today, the Upper Boat Inn sits alongside the original Cardiff-Merthyr Turnpike, which until the 1960's was indeed the original A470.  I understand that the entrance to the Cardiff Railway yard  is the point where the original A470 (now A4054? ) deviates. The new road goes behind the pub, whilst the 'Cardiff Road' passes in front of the pub. I can remember the set-up quite well. From here, the Cardiff Turnpike headed northwards through White Hawthorns, past & underneath the Cardiff Railway Viaduct  (site of) at Rhydyfelin, and alongside the River Taff, until we reach Machine Bridge at Treforest. The A4054 betwixt Treforest & Upper Boat runs through the back gardens & houses of the  original A470 (Cardiff Road), which I can remember being demolished to make way for the new road. 

 

Broadway in Pontypridd/Treforest is the original tram road from Pontypridd (near Pontypridd Junction) down to Machine Bridge, Local people did say that the weigh scales gave the area its name. Until the very late 60's, the canal was still walk able from Ynysagahred Memorial Park, alongside Brown Lennox, and all the way down towards Upper Boat. There's not much left nowadays, but enough to get a mental picture. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

Having posted up the Ganger's walkway picture, what we now need to know is how they were accessed?

 

I am presuming some form of internal ladder in the approach arch structure.

 

Were there access points at every pillar?

 

Someone somewhere will no doubt know.

 

Those that remember the original '39 Steps' film will recall the sequence on the Forth Bridge where the underside of the bridge was accessed through a door in the bridge deck.

 

I am assuming that the purpose of the walkway was not to get from one end of the viaduct to the other, but more probably to check on the underside of the wooden deck, and the steelwork.

 

Did Walnut tree viaduct have a painting regime, because I recall that the metalwork always looked a silvery grey, but I've never seen any pictures of the painters at work.

[tomparryharry]

Regarding the Barry Railway bridge piers:- Yes, they were hollow. I've read the same where the Llanbradach & Pen-yr Heol viaducts were demolished. 

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[chrisf]

On 13/08/2020 at 11:25, Happy Hippo said:

 

Passenger trains on the freight only line over the viaduct were restricted to summer weekend excursions, very often hauled by ex LNWR locos.

 

 

Often, but not always.  The last time the Super Ds were used was at the end of the summer 1959 service.  The Brynmawr/Nantybwch - Barry Island excursion finished at the end of the 1960 summer timetable and had to make do with 56xxs.

 

In the summer 1961 timetable there were publicly advertised passenger trains across the viaduct.  The 12 noon Sundays only Rhymney - Barry Island is shown as all stations to Llanbradach, except Gilfach Fargoed, continuing via Wenvoe nominally non-stop to Barry and on to Barry Island, arriving at 1.35 pm.  The return working left the Island at 8.10 pm and was due at Rhymney at 9.51 pm.  Neither ran after 27th August.  This pair of workings did not appear in the 1960 timetable but I have not checked other years.

 

Chris

[Stubby47]

I fixed our wireless doorbell this morning.

 

As far as I can tell, this did not involve any South Wales railways or viaducts.

[jamie92208]

2 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

I fixed our wireless doorbell this morning.

 

As far as I can tell, this did not involve any South Wales railways or viaducts.

And I've done the ironing whilst listening  to a lot of good music and definitely nothing about Welsh Railwsys or Hippos.

 

Jamie

[Happy Hippo]

The gentleman who we asked to look at the garden with a view to redesigning it has called by.

 

Neither Wales or Railways were mentioned.

 

Normal service will be resumed later.