Bachmann/EFE 1938 tubestock

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It's now showing as sold out.

But a 10% discount only on your first order doesn't strike me as a good way to generate repeat customers.

 

20% discount on the Moquette seating

 

https://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/furniture/london-underground-moquette-furniture/moquette-seating

 

[GoingUnderground]

 I ordered mine from Rails when it was announced, and it arrived today.

 

First impressions - The body colour is too dark, even for Train Red, and is closer to maroon than to train red at least to my eyes. The colour on the original EFE static models was about right, see attached photo of 3 of the original EFE models, with the cab end of the real LT Museum 4 car set superimposed on an original EFE model on the right. The photo of the actual train from which the cab end shot was was taken at High Barnet on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the introduction of the '38 stock in June 2008. I don't have them to hand at the moment to check, but the later '38 Stock static models of the ELL set and the "Metropilitan Amersham" set might also have had a darker bodyshell colour. 

 

 

Also the gaping hole below the driving cab door to accommodate a plug-in coupling is terrible, a compromise too far. I was under the impression that there would be a plug in moulding supplied to fill in the gap, similar to the way that the buffing plate and the LT coupler could be removed on the static model, but there were none with mine. It leaves the front view looking very infinished IMHO.

 

 

The bodyshell is the old EFE moulding, but modified so that it clips on to the chassis instead of using self tapping screws into plastic pillars. Strangely, the fixing pillars are retained even though they no longer have any purpose. The interior repeats the colours used on the original static model for the seats and floor despite the seating unit being new with a raised floor to hide the mechanism. The Plux22 blanking plug is clearly visible throug the windows as will be a DCC decoder if one is fitted. The route maps and adverts are the same as used on the static models and are not terribly representative of the real thing, but in operation they cannot be seen. Because the fixing pillars have been retained there are no adverts on the inside of the car ends. Also they have used the same lime green colour instead of something closer to LT cerulean blue. This is particularly noticeable in the cab, as it was in the static models, where the back wall of the cab should be LT Cerulean Blue not cream. This is demonstrated clearly in the photo above showing the darker interior on the actual train as opposed to the light cab interior on the static model, the static model having the same cab interior treatment as the EFE Rail model. The bodyshell also has the same door open warning lights on the roof  which were never fitted to the '38 stock.  Does the fact that they are there hint that ther might be a '59/'62 Tube Stock model to follow as the '59/'62 stock did have the warning lights.

 

The line/route/destination board  is a stickers which have very visible rounded corners, a retrograde step.

 

The original diecast metal chassis has been replaced by an all new plastic chassis. This has resulted in the DM cars weighing in at 105 grams, a lot less than the unmotorised static original DM car, 129 grams.

 

Whilst I haven't tried it myself, judging by the "play" in bogies (more than on the static models) it looks like the cars will have no problems with 1st radius curves given their length.

 

Am I pleased with the model? Yes, I am, but slightly disappointed at the body shell colour and the lack of a plug-in buffing plate and dummy LT coupling for the DM cars. I also think it a pity that Bachmann didn't take the opportunity to include working tail lights and a working headcode light given that the ywent with Plux 22 (my preference would have been 21MTC and I intend at some point to investigate replacing the Plux mounting plates with 21MTC ones).

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by GoingUnderground
to add front view of EFE Rail model

[KeithMacdonald]

Also in stock at Kernow Models

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/68605/E99939-EFE-Rail-London-Underground-1938-Tube-Stock---Northern

 

[Dublodad]

I haven't run mine yet, but certainly the Trailer and NDM when coupled will negotiate1st radius. The Driving Motor comfortably stands on first radius with clearance about the flanges.

I also think at the Red is too dark!!!

[andyman7]

The Bakerloo 1938 stock that got Extra Heavy Overhauls for life extension in the 1970s did receive roof mounted door opening lights (although the EFE model depicts a pre-EHO unit)

[GoingUnderground]

A bodyshell swap with one of the old static models is possible, but the drivers cab partition will have to be cut down because of the raised floor in the new model, as will the body mounting pillars as whilst these stil exist on the new model they are shorter than on the static model bodies and the ones on the old body will have to be reduced in length. Also a way will have to be found to replicate the new model's body fixing lugs inside the old shell. The lighting unit would have to be moved across. it is held in the new shell with self tappers screwing into a new boss projecting down from a modified version of the old ceiling insert.

 

Going the other way - fitting one of the new bodies to a static chassis, will require the body fixing lugs to be cut off inside the new shell or the old style seating unit modified.

 

Swapping the Plux board for a 21MTC looks to be relatively easy, 

 

For anyone thinking about fitting sound, the recess for the sugar cube speakers has no access/port to the outside, and the Bachmann instructions say to put the speaker in the recess and refit the lid. So the sound may be somewhat muted as the speaker would effectively be in a closed box.

 

Regauging for EM or P4 may be tricky as the pickup strips sit vertically inside the bogie frame with the axle ends riding on these strips and the axles between the wheels appearing to be plastic. Depending on how the axle end contacts with the wheel, regauging for EM or P4 may be very tricky, and could mean replacing the axles and wheels, and may mean changing the pickup method as well.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by GoingUnderground
Added more info

[Lord of Narnia]

I think I’ll stick to the old models then. I have enough cars to make a up a four or six car train with options for 1949 UNDM and also a 58 trailer. 
 

I have 3D printed bogies and will remove all the incorrect detail (grab rails/door fault lights etc) before respraying the cars in my preferred colours. 

[GoingUnderground]

As Bachmann made no changes at all to the original Gilbow EFE '38 Stock bodyshell, only to the window glazing, a '59/62 Stock version would be a simple matter of assembling the model using the Gilbow EFE '59/'62 Stock bodyshell instead, meaning that Bachmann could introduce such a model at absolutely no extra development cost at very short notice - subject to production capacity constraints. 

 

Thus, if this first batch of the EFE Rail '38 Stock sells well, then I'd expect to see reruns with appropriate running number changes for Bakerloo, Piccadilly and ELL destinations and '59/'62 Stock models introduced with Bakerloo (there wasn't a Gilbow '59/'62 Stock model), Central, Northern and Piccadilly Line destinations, replicating Gilbow's expansion of the static model range.

 

This expansion would fit with Bachmann's past production of the S Stock, the Art Deco "Harrow-on-The-Hill" station units, the two versions of the Sudbury Town station building (stand alone and low relief), and the low relief Tube surface buildings from the 1930s of the rebuilt City & South London part of the Northern line.

 

Conversion "kits" for the Gilbow static models could follow, but the only reuseable part from the static models would be the Gilbow bodyshell meaning that they would cost almost as much to produce as a new model and the retail price would be very similar to that of the complete model.

[Lee-H]

I am amazed it has taken until 2022 for a ready-to-run model of the 1938 tube stock to be offered for general sale (ignoring the ancient Everyready toy). I would have bought one of these 50 years ago, had any been manufactured back then.

[cctransuk]

35 minutes ago, Lee-H said:

I am amazed it has taken until 2022 for a ready-to-run model of the 1938 tube stock to be offered for general sale (ignoring the ancient Everyready toy). I would have bought one of these 50 years ago, had any been manufactured back then.

 

Fifty years ago, the technology to build affordable tiny motor bogies didn't exist.

 

If you think about it, there is usually a very good reason why manufacturers don't produce something that seems to be an obvious choice.

 

CJI.

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, Lee-H said:

I am amazed it has taken until 2022 for a ready-to-run model of the 1938 tube stock to be offered for general sale (ignoring the ancient Everyready toy). I would have bought one of these 50 years ago, had any been manufactured back then.

 

I think that Harrow Model Shop offered a "build and paint" service for their '38 stock and their other LT/LU kits back in the day. Phil Radley, who was connected to Harrow Model Shop still does offer such a service on his kits. Both Phil and John Polley/Metromodels offered a motorising conversion service for the original Gilbow EFE static models of the '38 and '59/'62 Stock.

 

London Transport/Underground is rather a niche market, and the production of the S stock and now the '38 Stock in R-T-R form, along with the 57xx ex-GWR pannier tanks and the Art Deco station buildings it is probably indicative of a saturated model railway market and the manufacturers trying to find new models and markets to keep generating sales.

 

I'm just disappointed that it has fallen to Bachmann to do it when the first Meccano Hornby O gauge electric loco produced 97 years ago was the Metropolitan Railway's MetroVic Bo-Bo, running off 120V AC! At least Hornby has now produced the 0-6-0DH Sentinel which LT bought to replace the pannier tanks. 

 

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Fifty years ago, the technology to build affordable tiny motor bogies didn't exist.

 

If you think about it, there is usually a very good reason why manufacturers don't produce something that seems to be an obvious choice.

 

CJI.

 

50 years ago the technology did exist. Just look at the small motors that Triang were producing for their Minic Motorways range, or the motor produced for the Triang "Rocket".

 

The reason why manufacturers don't make something is that they don't think that the sales of the product will be large enough to return a decent profit, or that spending the development cash in other areas will produce a bigger profit. They too want the biggest bangs for their bucks. It's only now that the market for the most common locos and rolling stock is saturated that they're turning to less popular or less common items to produce.

 

Lots of modellers don't see the Underground as worth modellng - no steam and all in tunnels - not worth the bother.

[Jeff Smith]

There was of course plenty of steam running alongside 1938 stock, earlier the ex- Metropolitan and later the ex-GWR Panniers.  For a short time I think there were both.

[Lord of Narnia]

18 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

I think that Harrow Model Shop offered a "build and paint" service for their '38 stock and their other LT/LU kits back in the day. Phil Radley, who was connected to Harrow Model Shop still does offer such a service on his kits. Both Phil and John Polley/Metromodels offered a motorising conversion service for the original Gilbow EFE static models of the '38 and '59/'62 Stock.

 

London Transport/Underground is rather a niche market, and the production of the S stock and now the '38 Stock in R-T-R form, along with the 57xx ex-GWR pannier tanks and the Art Deco station buildings it is probably indicative of a saturated model railway market and the manufacturers trying to find new models and markets to keep generating sales.

 

I'm just disappointed that it has fallen to Bachmann to do it when the first Meccano Hornby O gauge electric loco produced 97 years ago was the Metropolitan Railway's MetroVic Bo-Bo, running off 120V AC! At least Hornby has now produced the 0-6-0DH Sentinel which LT bought to replace the pannier tanks. 

 

 

50 years ago the technology did exist. Just look at the small motors that Triang were producing for their Minic Motorways range, or the motor produced for the Triang "Rocket".

 

The reason why manufacturers don't make something is that they don't think that the sales of the product will be large enough to return a decent profit, or that spending the development cash in other areas will produce a bigger profit. They too want the biggest bangs for their bucks. It's only now that the market for the most common locos and rolling stock is saturated that they're turning to less popular or less common items to produce.

 

Lots of modellers don't see the Underground as worth modellng - no steam and all in tunnels - not worth the bother.

Talking of the 0-6-0 Sentinel, I’ve have just been asked to produce a model of the Diesel Tender which ran with the locos to activate track circuits and also assist with deicing duties.

 

They were built on withdrawn Q38 bogies. They will be available through Radley Models later this year. 

[GoingUnderground]

35 minutes ago, Lord of Narnia said:

Talking of the 0-6-0 Sentinel, I’ve have just been asked to produce a model of the Diesel Tender which ran with the locos to activate track circuits and also assist with deicing duties.

 

They were built on withdrawn Q38 bogies. They will be available through Radley Models later this year. 

May thanks for that info. I was going to order some bogies from Phil to make up my own version, but I'll look out for the Radley Models version.

 

Back to the new '38 Stock, there's a review of the model, by an ex-LT driver who drove the '38 stock on the Northern Line on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINVQK8jzeU 

 

Like him, I too think it's a bit undergeared, having got my own running.

[Erixtar1992]

To fit alternative (older) EFE bodyshells you will need to swap the glazing over.

its the glazing that has the retaining lugs.

 

[GoingUnderground]

3 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

There was of course plenty of steam running alongside 1938 stock, earlier the ex- Metropolitan and later the ex-GWR Panniers.  For a short time I think there were both.

That's true, but in my experience most folks only think of the below ground parts of the Tube network and forget about the above ground parts. 

 

[Lee-H]

4 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

I think that Harrow Model Shop offered a "build and paint" service for their '38 stock and their other LT/LU kits back in the day. Phil Radley, who was connected to Harrow Model Shop still does offer such a service on his kits. Both Phil and John Polley/Metromodels offered a motorising conversion service for the original Gilbow EFE static models of the '38 and '59/'62 Stock.

 

London Transport/Underground is rather a niche market, and the production of the S stock and now the '38 Stock in R-T-R form, along with the 57xx ex-GWR pannier tanks and the Art Deco station buildings it is probably indicative of a saturated model railway market and the manufacturers trying to find new models and markets to keep generating sales.

 

I'm just disappointed that it has fallen to Bachmann to do it when the first Meccano Hornby O gauge electric loco produced 97 years ago was the Metropolitan Railway's MetroVic Bo-Bo, running off 120V AC! At least Hornby has now produced the 0-6-0DH Sentinel which LT bought to replace the pannier tanks. 

 

 

50 years ago the technology did exist. Just look at the small motors that Triang were producing for their Minic Motorways range, or the motor produced for the Triang "Rocket".

 

The reason why manufacturers don't make something is that they don't think that the sales of the product will be large enough to return a decent profit, or that spending the development cash in other areas will produce a bigger profit. They too want the biggest bangs for their bucks. It's only now that the market for the most common locos and rolling stock is saturated that they're turning to less popular or less common items to produce.

 

Lots of modellers don't see the Underground as worth modellng - no steam and all in tunnels - not worth the bother.

I know Phil Radley has always offered a build and paint service, I am just surprised the major players have never previously offered a r-t-r model. Tri-ang did an SR EMU and a Woodhead EM2 which were quite niche back then. I’m sure an Underground set would have had similar appeal, even to non-southerners such as myself.

[PhilJ W]

There is/was three Underground layouts based on actual locations, Aldwych, Blake Hall and the Brill branch. At one time the LT museum at the spring opening of the depot at Acton made it a model railway exhibition which attracted a dozen or more Underground layouts. Sadly they decided to cater for the under tens and dropped the model exhibition. 

[Lord of Narnia]

Yes made for a very poor event. I used to enjoy the modelling event. Not been for years now….

[Erixtar1992]

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

There is/was three Underground layouts based on actual locations, Aldwych, Blake Hall and the Brill branch. At one time the LT museum at the spring opening of the depot at Acton made it a model railway exhibition which attracted a dozen or more Underground layouts. Sadly they decided to cater for the under tens and dropped the model exhibition. 

Any idea what happened to them? I recently was sent pics of blake hall, now back in its rightful home of blake hall itself im told! but not seen the other two.

[PhilJ W]

3 minutes ago, Erixtar1992 said:

Any idea what happened to them? I recently was sent pics of blake hall, now back in its rightful home of blake hall itself im told! but not seen the other two.

Aldwych featured in Model Rail magazine about five years ago. It was frequently at shows around Essex up until lockdown. It is owned and displayed by the Basildon model railway club. It is currently being rebuilt, back dated to the 1940's. The Brill branch layout I'm not sure but I think its based in Buckinghamshire. I have seen it at a couple of exhibitions. There is a group on Facebook for modellers of the London Underground.

[roythebus1]

there's been numerous discussions about the various shades of Underground red and bus red. Williamsons paints in Yorkshire who can match any paint sample and provide paint for the majority of heritage railways list at least a dozen shades of London Bus Rd, 5 Chiswick Creams, at least 4 Bus Browns plus a host of other LT colours. don't ask for the RAL equivalent, LT had their own paint codes.

 

Paint mixing in those days was very hit and miss, dependant on who mixed it, the quality of the base colours, and the day of the week. The finish was also affected by the undercoat. So don't worry too much about slight variations.

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

Here's a suggestion, take your newly purchased set from the LT Museum shop into the museum and compare to the 1938 car.......hopefully it is in Train red not Bus red!

[SRman]

15 hours ago, Lord of Narnia said:

Talking of the 0-6-0 Sentinel, I’ve have just been asked to produce a model of the Diesel Tender which ran with the locos to activate track circuits and also assist with deicing duties.

 

They were built on withdrawn Q38 bogies. They will be available through Radley Models later this year. 

 

That's good news, because I sent off an email to Hornby Marketing Dept./Simon Kohler almost immediately after their announcements, to suggest they could look at doing an LT version of the Sentinel. I got a response signed by Simon that said, "There are several liveries we can add to this locomotive one of which could be that of London Transport. Certainly one to consider.", and thanking me for the suggestion.

[GoingUnderground]

1 hour ago, SRman said:

 

That's good news, because I sent off an email to Hornby Marketing Dept./Simon Kohler almost immediately after their announcements, to suggest they could look at doing an LT version of the Sentinel. I got a response signed by Simon that said, "There are several liveries we can add to this locomotive one of which could be that of London Transport. Certainly one to consider.", and thanking me for the suggestion.

In 2021 I finally managed to acquire one of the Knightwing Sentinel 0-6-0DH kits,. Since then have been doing some investigations, mainly using online sources, to see how the Sentinels were in LT days.

 

Hornby's recently-announced NCB green liveried version, R.30085, is wrong in two major aspects.

 

In LT days, the Sentinel had dumb buffers not hydraulic ones at the long bonnet/engine end, as shown in the photos on page 776 of the LURS November 2021 supplement to Underground News, and judging by the picture on page 56 of London UndergroundRolling Stock in Colour by John Glover, no buffers of any kind on the short bonnet/tender end - it wouldn't have needed any if the tender was rigidly coupled to the loco. It also had a variable height wedgelock coupler at the engine end, with a large hole in the buffer beam skirt to accommodate it. The tooling would need to be modified accordingly if the model was an accurate representation of the Sentinels in LT days

 

The photos that I've found of them running on preserved lines invariably show them with the hole for the wedgelock coupler plated over and spring/hydraulic buffers all round.

 

Modelled in its preserved form, R.30085 fits the bill with the addition of LT logo and running numbers, but would need some physical alterations to reflect the Sentinels' physical configuration under LT ownership.

 

And apologies for taking us off topic.