Why is their no budget range for the younger modeller to get into this hobby?

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Non railway interests!

 

An examination of the visitor profile at many Heritage railways at weekends and school holidays will show that Teenage children are vastly outnumbered by primary and pre school children. If kids were maintaining the same level of interest once they hit their teenage years then you would see a grater proportion of older age groups visiting.

 

As for the steam versus diesel debate, 'Steamport Southport' is factually correct in his assertions about the visitor types seen at most Heritage railways. Linking in with the above, if teenagers had simply 'moved on' from steam then you would see evidence of that with respect to that age groups attendance on diesel running days or significant interest when travelling / observing the current network. That you don't see either of these happening actually says that once kids reach teenage years the majority lose all interest in trains - and by extension model railways

 

Finally how many ordinary folk go and rush for their camera phones when an unusual / heritage diesel comes past a station compared to when steam motive power does. Evidence says steam traction has a powerful pull on non enthusiasts which heritage diesels do not even when adulthood is reached.

 

So what does all this mean - basically viability of a 'budget model railway range' has NOTHING to do with what types of traction / era potentially offered and everything to do with the fact that railways, particularly model railways are shunned by the vast majority of teenagers / young people as 'not cool' / not interesting. Until social attitudes towards the interest change back to the halcyon days of the 1950s (when train spotting, etc was seen as a cool hobby to have) its simply not profitable for anyone to pay specific attention to the 'serious but cheap' segment of the market unless (like Hornby) you happen to have some old paid off tooling you can use to make a few extra bucks on the side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fact is the 'halcyon days of the 1950s', is now 65 years ago and so anyone hanging around platforms then, taking numbers has to be into their 70s.

I was born in 1956, so I'm outside that group, but also my local line was electrified when I was 5 (LT&SR), so I have no recollection of steam at all in normal service.

But in some respects I buck the trend, as I have never left model railways like so many others have and come back many years later.

 

Despite my background, the LMS trains I prefer are those of more northern types. Why, I don't really know where that came from, as I've never lived in northern England, but did Scotland for 4 years. Yeah, I know makes no sense, but it's me!

 

I think an important difference from the 1950s to today, is the huge variety of trains back then, when virtually anything could be seen in much of the country. I don't mean that GWR Kings could be seen throughout the country, but the fact that it you waited long enough to see a dozen trains, you'd get several different types - except on the LT&SR!

 

Fact is most modern railways are much less interesting than railways used to be. Many lines are suburban only and while there are plenty of trains, there might be 1 or 2 varieties. Is it surprising that many youngsters don't get interested in trains any more? Many have possibly never taken a regular train, so why should they even think about model railways as a hobby - they don't.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Fact is most modern railways are much less interesting than railways used to be.

 

Although I’m much younger than some of the people posting here, I think the local railway where I grew up (GN suburban) has become less interesting even in the past decade or so, purely in terms of the number of EMU classes (more specifically in this case, the age and appearance of the different units was previously very diverse, whereas classes 700 and 717 are extremely similar to each other and built at the same time, but anyway...). But I don’t and haven’t modelled it, I model industrial NG. Most of this is inspired by books, old photos and heritage lines but I do actually have a watercress bed layout based on first-hand research of a local, still working line, where I was inspired by ‘what I saw around me.’ One day I might like to do a model set in some odd corner of either the North London third rail network or the GN lines, complete with class 313s, but this is as much due to my secondary interest in old electric railways as my own memories.  Another feature of EMUs is that they occupy a lot of space relative to locos.

 

 I can think of a few modern main line locations that are still very interesting. London termini, Watford Junction, Crewe, Peterborough and York all spring to mind as examples, all of which are virtually impossible to model for most people due to space constraints. But if you look beyond the main line to heritage/industrial/NG/miniature railways there are other areas of potential interest.

 

 I still think, though, that the idea that kids will be overwhelmingly drawn to modern image is not necessarily particularly correct.

Edited August 16, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

The ex-Hornby Dublo /Wrenn SD wagons are still available as a current range by Dapol. They have a modern chassis and metal wheels, the chasssis is  crisply moulded in plastic therefore better in appearance over the metal Dublo chassis which Dublo never got around to retooling (perhaps Dublo did not have the money),  and the price under £10 each or  or 50% to 60% of a Bachmann wagon,  the  wagons fit my criteria of a budget product  for the beginner, the next time you are in a model shop take a look at the Dapol wagons, see for yourself.

Yes, Dapol have improved the awful HD/Wrenn chassis, the bodies of which are not half bad, and are sold at very reasonable prices; you can also buy separate chassis and unpainted bodies, very useful for those on a budget.  I have a few, but would note that 1) on some wagons, the older Dapol chassis is retained with moulded brake handles, which are difficult to remove.  Separate brake handles are a specification on my layout.  My go to replacement chassis are Parksides.  2) I have been perhaps unlucky but in every case my Dapol wagons have given trouble with wheels and couplings, especially wheels.  I gave up on my Fruit D, incapable of remaining on the track (even with replacement Bachmann wheels) through any turnout while coupled in a train, the only wagon that has defeated me.  I replaced it with a Parkside kit. 

 

I'll have the last laugh on it though; intention is to cut'n'shut it to a Fruit C and modify an old Mainline toad chassis for it.  Most recent Dapol acquisition is a 21ton GW mineral, which is fine with Bachmann wheels but has yet to have the moulded handbrake lever cut out and replaced and gives occasional coupling issues as the bar height does not match my Bachmann derived standard (not all Bachmanns do, either).  Will replace with Parkside NEM mounts trimmed or packed to set the bar at the correct height, and Bachmann NEM couplings, my layout standard, classic Johnster bodgery with the help of my classic Johnster bodgerygar.

[black and decker boy]

Most teenage kids want to do team / social hobbies. Gaming, football or playing in a band are all things you do with your mates.

 

Toy trains are not a team hobby if you are a teenager. Toy trains, even the finest scale wonders are unlikely to impress your love target whereas many of the team hobbies will.

 

i followed railway modelling throughout my teens & twenties, it was a family hobby. I built & exhibited a layout through my mid & late teens. Most of my mates played 5 a side football, formed bands & played pub gigs or got tied into serious relationships. For some, the hobby was an obsession just like it is for some modellers.

 

Life also gets in the way, my Free time for modelling was minimal as I entered the job market at 22 but as I established myself and pay rose and mortgage got less as a % of pay, I was able to build & exhibit once again. My passion remained for toy trains. My other friends passions grew as they could afford more too, some spending vast sums following Man U around the U.K. and EU.

 

Toy trains is a niche hobby. UK outline is niche within that. A one off budget range for the U.K. has no hope of reaching the volume sales needed. High spec models appeal to those who return to the hobby and collectors alike and are not limited to the over 65s. Whether there are enough modellers under 65 to sustain so many clubs & Put on public exhibitions remains to be seen but I can see a contraction happening over the next 10-15 years.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The thing I don't get, though is why 3-car units (particularly from Bachmann) so often cost significantly more than a loco and two coaches?

 

Think of it as 3 coaches plus the works of a loco, plus an extra interior in cf, to a loco and two coaches.  If it's a main line cross country 3 car 190 or similar, the cf.is an express tender loco and up to 10 coaches; the 3-car unit is looking a bit less unreasonable now, isn't it.  

 

You've hit on a fundamental problem though; people like me who can't really afford a model railway and don't have the skills or tools to make one, thus relying on RTR, can usually manage a reasonable BLT, even a busy South Wales mining one, but if we are not into steam or early diesel, modern trains are long, have long locomotives or double headed short one, long wagons, and long coaches, running over high speed turnouts with signals half a mile back from them.  Hence the plethora of shed layouts, which would never do for me as I'm too interested in stock and correct running, or insanely busy goods terminals of the sort that see a train once every 10 days or so with 3 or 4 locos busily shunting single wagons on them, usually modelled I have to admit to a very high standard.  

 

The only way many of us can convince ourselves that our length-compromised curve radius compromised layouts are acceptable is to seek out small prototypes.  There were still a few of these around 50 years ago, plenty 100 years ago, and nothing else 200 years ago.  These small prototypes will attract a hard core, but if one accepts that to be attractive to customers, especially beginners, and especially young beginners (I don't accept this unquestioningly, btw), the model must be relevant to their experience of real train, that means product liveried for the last 10 years; I like to call this 'current practice's since so many of my peers regard sectorised BR as modern image.  

 

Houston (or rather Margate, Barwell, et al), we have a problem.  Current practice modelling with scale length trains, particularly freight trains but a twin set of 801s takes up a good bit of room as well, means that we can't do it in a typical UK home environment.  We can model, of course, at a work desk, but we don't need to; RTR can do it better and cheaper.  What people want is fast long trains running at scale speeds; well, I don't want this, but the bulk of the trainset market does, and they can't have it unless they own really big houses.  This realisation dawns not long after the train set purchase, and many give up, irrespective of age.  

 

I believe the answer to this is retro; a medium fi RTR range of conservatively priced locos and stock suitable for modelling, say, 1840.  Locos and rolling stock are smaller, go slower, and space savers such as wagon turntables and sector plates were more common.  Signalling is less complex, and in many cases non existent, and everything is more colourful.  Chassis and underframe details are simpler; most stock didn't have any brakes!  Some 3D printing stuff is already moving in this direction.  Add on details to work the locos and stock up a bit, a standard single axle drive interchangeable between loco bodies, guards and policemen in top hats and a few Victorian looking accessories, and you could have a fairly complex layout running with scale length trains at scale speeds in most domestic spare rooms.

 

The attraction of this is that it is capable of being used in a train set table top put it away before bedtime way, but easily extended and upgraded with a lot of opportunity for the sort of kitbashing that modellers of my generation cut their teeth on, creativity and ingenuity maintaining interest into adulthood.  It can be compatible with existing 00 track standards.  Some of it can be a bit rough and ready, as were real 1840s railways.  The past is the future. the way forward is backwards!  

Edited August 16, 2020 by The Johnster

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Fact is most modern railways are much less interesting than railways used to be. Many lines are suburban only and while there are plenty of trains, there might be 1 or 2 varieties. Is it surprising that many youngsters don't get interested in trains any more?

 

We don't yet know the influence of the modern railway - it will take another 30 years before today's teenager reaches prime model railway age.

 

Quote

Many have possibly never taken a regular train, so why should they even think about model railways as a hobby - they don't.

 

Social media, YouTube, magazines in stores - the necessity of taking a train is seriously overblown.

 

The hobby is thriving in the US - a place where many of those interested have definitely never taken a train (because it simply wasn't an option) and in many cases would not have actually seen a real train without specifically going out of their way to find one (or at best seen it in the distance).

 

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I still think, though, that the idea that kids will be overwhelmingly drawn to modern image is not necessarily particularly correct.

 

And hasn't been for a while - yes there is a correlation between the teenage years and what many of them want to model, but there are also many other factors at play.  The already mentioned fascination with the visual attraction of the motion of a steam engine is one, but for those who get into operations and trying to recreate the real thing the steam / early diesel era with its greater goods options at a local station, and more fun with at the very least having to move the engine at a terminal to the other end of a train are a real attraction.

Edited August 16, 2020 by mdvle

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, Legend said:

but it could also be an IET , 66. Or 68 . But imagine a kid wanting an IET ........£355 . You can just hear parent going “how much?”  .

 

Yet those same imaginary parents will in many cases think nothing of spending that much or more on a game console for the kid who is into games.

 

But the real problem isn't the price of the Class 800, the problem is the real railway and it's move to emu/dmu trains - which have eliminated the possibility of buying a loco, and then gradually adding coaches as budget/present opportunity develops with time.

 

The emu/dmu forces the purchase to all happen at once, and there is nothing Hornby/Bachmann/etc can do about that.

 

5 hours ago, Legend said:

That’s why we need a good basic range . Frankly it would suit me too never mind a new comer 

The problem is there is no market for a good basic range - the collapse of the "every kid has a train set under the Christmas tree" market means there is insufficient volume to cover the costs of doing say a trainset Class 800 and still offer it as the cheap price you want - even a "basic range" product still has the tooling cost problem.

[mdvle]

20 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

I accept that the £9 drone will be a disposable short-term toy, but you can get a 1/24th scale Porsche for £13. Again it won't be that detailed and probably won't have a very long life span, but an initial 'train set' isn't very detailed and will get grown out of fairly rapidly.

 

As spamcan61 stated, it is all about volume.  That 1/24th scale Porsche will sell in the hundreds of thousands around the world, making the tooling costs negligible per unit.

 

Model trains don't sell in anywhere near those numbers - a typical production run is in the thousands - which means the tooling costs (in the $100,000 range based on most estimates) need to be paid for from very few units.

 

The only really comparable thing might be a Thomas or Harry Potter line - if the company making them has a worldwide and not local license - but even then the licensing costs become a significant part of the price(*).

 

Now, if you get a lot more people in the hobby or return to the past where the variety of models was limited you could perhaps up the volume numbers enough to allow a reasonable price drop - but most of the market quite like the ability over a couple of years to get almost anything they want rather than except what is available.

 

* - in the US Rapido has looked into it - there have been many requests for them to make the "Amroad" train from the movie Silver Streak - the licensing cost started in 6 figures I believe.  Even simpler things, like another run of existing tooling can be stopped by licensing - Athearn has Mack truck models that they can't re-run because the new licensing costs would make them too expensive.

Edited August 16, 2020 by mdvle

[Andy Reichert]

6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Yet those same imaginary parents will in many cases think nothing of spending that much or more on a game console for the kid who is into games.

 

But the real problem isn't the price of the Class 800, the problem is the real railway and it's move to emu/dmu trains - which have eliminated the possibility of buying a loco, and then gradually adding coaches as budget/present opportunity develops with time.

 

The emu/dmu forces the purchase to all happen at once, and there is nothing Hornby/Bachmann/etc can do about that.

 

The problem is there is no market for a good basic range - the collapse of the "every kid has a train set under the Christmas tree" market means there is insufficient volume to cover the costs of doing say a trainset Class 800 and still offer it as the cheap price you want - even a "basic range" product still has the tooling cost problem.

 

There is a heck of a market for 50 p /Lb beef steak, but no budget means of providing it. 

 

Laser cut cardboard kits for coaches and a supply of "universal" plastic bogie frames and moulded wheels on on the other hand could dramatically cut the cost of an entry level "model" train. 

 

The drawback is whether even simplistic kit construction would appeal to a modern youngsters used to having instant, perfectly moving screen images at touch of a finger and the (free) price of watching an ad.

 

Andy

[009 micro modeller]

10 minutes ago, mdvle said:

The problem is there is no market for a good basic range - the collapse of the "every kid has a train set under the Christmas tree" market means there is insufficient volume to cover the costs of doing say a trainset Class 800 and still offer it as the cheap price you want - even a "basic range" product still has the tooling cost problem.

 

I think actually there may still be quite a few people who have a train set or have had at some point - but only as a one-off toy, perhaps among several other toys. But not all of those people go on to develop a more serious model railway interest. I mentioned this in a previous topic with a slightly different emphasis but I can’t help wondering if part of the problem is that Hornby train sets bought by those who aren’t that ‘into’ model railways are increasingly bought from major, not railway-specific retailers who exclusively sell sets and don’t sell smaller add-on items. If your perceived only option for expansion is to buy another set (which is more expensive than buying an individual item) then you might not bother. Although the internet should make things easier, if you are new to model railways you might not know of the main model railway mail-order/online suppliers and buying used stuff on eBay etc. comes with its own set of pitfalls.

[adb968008]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Non railway interests!

 

An examination of the visitor profile at many Heritage railways at weekends and school holidays will show that Teenage children are vastly outnumbered by primary and pre school children. If kids were maintaining the same level of interest once they hit their teenage years then you would see a grater proportion of older age groups visiting.

 

As for the steam versus diesel debate, 'Steamport Southport' is factually correct in his assertions about the visitor types seen at most Heritage railways. Linking in with the above, if teenagers had simply 'moved on' from steam then you would see evidence of that with respect to that age groups attendance on diesel running days or significant interest when travelling / observing the current network. That you don't see either of these happening actually says that once kids reach teenage years the majority lose all interest in trains - and by extension model railways

 

Finally how many ordinary folk go and rush for their camera phones when an unusual / heritage diesel comes past a station compared to when steam motive power does. Evidence says steam traction has a powerful pull on non enthusiasts which heritage diesels do not even when adulthood is reached.

 

So what does all this mean - basically viability of a 'budget model railway range' has NOTHING to do with what types of traction / era potentially offered and everything to do with the fact that railways, particularly model railways are shunned by the vast majority of teenagers / young people as 'not cool' / not interesting. Until social attitudes towards the interest change back to the halcyon days of the 1950s (when train spotting, etc was seen as a cool hobby to have) its simply not profitable for anyone to pay specific attention to the 'serious but cheap' segment of the market unless (like Hornby) you happen to have some old paid off tooling you can use to make a few extra bucks on the side.

 

So we are all doomed and the hobby will die or are you looking in the wrong place ?

 

Most teenagers wont go near a steam line because they question it, their elders and get fed up with the put downs, cliques and the “you know nothings” that are all to prevalent, sure some make it, most don't.. 

They want to do their own thing, not their fathers or grandfathers. Its not relevant to them, its not their memories, its the past.
 

The 1970’s was a dead era for railway enthusiasts of all types, yet in 2020 the number of “preserved diesels” outstrips steam, they may not be popular with the public, but they arent owned by minimum 60+ year old steam era memoried elites, many whom still hold a grudge against diesels, so who is it who is buying them ?

 

At the DRS20, GW HST, LNER HST finale’s  even Virgin Trains last ever service hundreds to thousands turned out, and 80-90% of those are still working age, born post steam, and many are not as interested in steam. Sure they arent teenagers, but when the above was new, they probably were.

 

So let me ask you, why are you here, Did you miss your teenage years ? The latest generation are doing nothing different to us. Sure theres less in 2020 than there was in 1990 or 1960, but they exist, indeed in the last 2 years theres numbers have grown as Ive seen with my own eyes.

 

I gave 10 years to a preserved line, and wandered off after I heard enough. I moved overseas, travelled for nearly a decade and a half, but when I settled down I returned to the hobby. But if there was no Lima jobbing out this weeks latest liveries in 1990 chances are I wouldn't be here today. I’m sorry but theres little chance I will volunteer to a preserved line again, the first experience was off putting for life once I grew up, but my interest in the hobby wont wane.

Many diesel volunteers are like minded, instead they work in the industry instead and give time to a diesel group, rather than any one line, when you look at diesels, very few groups (the oldest) have loyalty to any one preserved line.

 

This attitude created their own problem. I suspect in the future some lines will be rescued by, and become more “1980/90’s” generational if they are to survive under volunteers, others will cease being preserved and become “for profit” tourist lines and others could fade away or become re-integrated into the network.

 

So are we doomed ? Is this it or is it just another iteration of “it was better in my day” and being out of touch with today ?.. well 
 

Accurascale, Cavalax, Flangeway, Realtrack, Revolution, Hattons, Oxford, KR, SLW and Rapido... all new entrants to manufacturing, but only 7 steam locos have been announced collectively by all of them... None have discounted anything modern, and several have done repeat runs..indeed Realtracks sold out models are fetching £400+, Apt-E is £800+, Accurascales 2nd run PFAs sold out within an afternoon. No general rtr steam models are fetching these prices, not even the SECR 592.

A Hornby Drax Biomas wagon fetches more than a Hornby Rocket.

 

They are serving a market, it doesnt sound like your market, but they are serving a market, that does exist.

 

i’ll sign off with this... I think the modern market is healthier in demand/price/supply ratio myself given the general sell out / non-discount... steam might be popular, but people aren't putting as much money down as is required to take them off the table...

just look at the left overs here.. theres only 3 diesels in it, and the steam prices, from £59 are very attractive.

https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/store/search.asp?keyword=SpecialOffersOO

To me if the hobby has a future, it needs to embrace in some form, modern image, which doesnt preclude preserved steam, obscure rebuilds (NER and GW railmotors) and new builds (60163! 47xx, Saint, County etc)... but to me theres little mileage in tooling extinct LNER Black J 0-6-0’s and theres only so many times you can retool a pacific before the second hand market swamps it.

 

Why no budget range.. I stand by what I said earlier.. its business, even in China, why would they cut margins to make a cheap train when they can make much more by up-selling, and stand good chance of repossessing that tooling when/if the commissioner goes pop, so why do they care ?

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

7 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

Laser cut cardboard kits for coaches and a supply of "universal" plastic bogie frames and moulded wheels on on the other hand could dramatically cut the cost of an entry level "model" train. 

 

The drawback is whether even simplistic kit construction would appeal to a modern youngsters used to having instant, perfectly moving screen images at touch of a finger and the (free) price of watching an ad.

 

I think this is a good idea, and wood (pressed rather than more expensive laser cut) could also be used in some cases to make the finished product more robust. As I’ve said above there are children and young adults who like crafts and often find them relaxing.

 

http://www.quayimports.co.uk/woodcraft-consruction-kits.html

 

This is a Woodcraft kit. The flat sheets are not always very appropriate but probably could be for coach sides. This is also where large scale NG might make things easier though.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I have just read this thread and am puzzled by the fact that some of you think that current prices are too high for junior modellers. In the long run I do not think that the prices are any more expensive now than they were in the mid 60's when I started. All my model railway trains etc came from birthdays and christmas . It was considered an expensive hobby even then. I can remember begging my father to get me a Triang M7 0-4-4 tank when I was about 12 with no luck. I did inherit quite a large Hornby Dublo layout that I got for my 10th birthday. It started me off with so I was quite lucky. The thing is that people will not bat an eyelid about spending 3-5 thousand pounds to take their kids to Disney world but shudder at spending a couple of hundred pounds on a model railway for their kids. So in my humble opinion the money is there it is the priorities that people want to spend it on that has changed

Even though a holiday lasts only a week or two and a model railway can last you a lifetime.

As to some people saying that there is nothing  cheap for them to buy. take a look at the Mehano range that you can buy on Amazon and cheaper on Ebay. Alright they are either European or American trains. But you can get some of the sets for £50-70. And yes they have starter sets for younger modellers. The prices look equivelent to the UK, But:

A/ They are in Euros and not pounds.

B/ You can get some of the sets new for about half the listed price on Amazon and Ebay.

http://www.mehano.si/en/products

Edited August 16, 2020 by cypherman

[Binky]

54 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

The drawback is whether even simplistic kit construction would appeal to a modern youngsters used to having instant, perfectly moving screen images at touch of a finger and the (free) price of watching an ad.

 

Andy

 

This doesn't seem to be a problem for tabletop gaming such as wargames and scifi/fantasy games. Games Workshop are doing very well and many other systems seem to have a healthy following, with youngsters prepared to assemble and paint figures which come as plastic kits and make scenery from scratch.

 

If there is a gap in the market for modern trains that people want to model but can't afford then perhaps a good compromise may be the body kit on a standard chassis system that has been mentioned, possibly using a powered bogie like a Tenshodo Spud or Black Beetle. These sort of systems are not uncommon for narrow and minimum gauge modellers but tend to be produced by smaller manufacturers and one person operations. It shows that it can be done though, the only hurdle may be producing modern liveries to apply to locos/multiple units whereas narrow gauge/industrial kits can mostly be satisfactoraly hand painted and lettered.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Binky

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Think of it as 3 coaches plus the works of a loco, plus an extra interior in cf, to a loco and two coaches.  If it's a main line cross country 3 car 190 or similar, the cf.is an express tender loco and up to 10 coaches; the 3-car unit is looking a bit less unreasonable now, isn't it.  

 

But the cost of the body of the third car can be ignored as it is cancelled out by not having to make a loco body. Also, using your comparison of 3 coaches plus the works of a loco, the coaches would all have interiors so why allow for the cost of another?

 

A truer comparison might be 3x 3-car units against the loco-hauled express.

 

RRP example (rounded to the nearest whole pound) for "complete trains":

 

3x Bachmann Class 159 DMu (they run that way out of Waterloo) at £340 each. Total £1,020.

 

Bachmann's forthcoming V2 at £219 + 10x Thompsons at £57 each. Total : £789

 

Or a diesel set, Class 47 at £150 + 10 Mk2 D/E at £60 each, Total: a nice round £750

 

Oh, and both of those examples add up to eleven vehicles so maybe I ought only to count eight coaches? On that basis the L/H sets would come out at £685 and £630 respectively.

 

Still think it compares?  I remain convinced that equating the cost of the powered car of a DMu to that of a diesel loco is a fair comparison, and therefore rest my case.

 

John

Edited August 17, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Trains4U]

There IS a cheape, entry level range.

its called “Second hand”

 

when I was young, in the 80’s, I’d look longingly at the Lima 87s, 60s and 47s in the display cabinets in Beatties, but I always returned to the second hand racks of Fratton Bargain Shop.

 

I saved and bought what I could afford, and if I was lucky, I’d get something new for a birthday or Christmas.

 

3/4 of my collection was used.

and I too dropped out of the hobby from about 13 years old.  It wasn’t until I had disposable income that I touched upon it again (at about 25 years of age)

 

But then I went a bit mental the next year and started a shop...

[Binky]

11 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

There IS a cheape, entry level range.

its called “Second hand”

 

Agreed, for someone wanting an 0-4-0 and a circle of track for their kids, or wanting to create a small shunting layout such as the one on Budget Model Railways' youtube channel there's plenty of suitable stuff on facebook marketplace etc.

 

The only issue I can see is if there is someone on a budget wanting modern diesels or multiple units. The only modern outline trains that could be found RTR on a similar budget would be Class 08s and maybe some smaller wagons.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Binky

[Trains4U]

3 minutes ago, Binky said:

The only issue I can see is if there is someone on a budget wanting modern diesels or multiple units.

 

And there’s the rub...

that someone has to save, or keep dreaming.

 

I washed god knows how many cars to save up for a second hand Hornby 91 in 1989.

new ones were about £39, second hand, £25...

 

[RJS1977]

54 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I think actually there may still be quite a few people who have a train set or have had at some point - but only as a one-off toy, perhaps among several other toys. But not all of those people go on to develop a more serious model railway interest. I mentioned this in a previous topic with a slightly different emphasis but I can’t help wondering if part of the problem is that Hornby train sets bought by those who aren’t that ‘into’ model railways are increasingly bought from major, not railway-specific retailers who exclusively sell sets and don’t sell smaller add-on items. If your perceived only option for expansion is to buy another set (which is more expensive than buying an individual item) then you might not bother. Although the internet should make things easier, if you are new to model railways you might not know of the main model railway mail-order/online suppliers and buying used stuff on eBay etc. comes with its own set of pitfalls.

 

But is part of that because there aren't enough affordable, robust models to maintain the interest?

 

After my parents gave me a Holden 0-4-0, three four wheel coaches and associated wagons for my 5th birthday (along with the 'loan' of a Triang controller and track and 'visits' from some of my father's locos), I think every birthday or Christmas for the next ten years brought forth some new addition to help maintain the interest (along with 12 doses of Railway Modeller a year!), and my father and I spent countless evenings assembling Airfix and Superquick kits together. Long-term there's a lot more satisfaction in being able to show someone something you made, even if it was a while back than saying "Oh, I kicked a piece of leather between two metal posts", which will have been completely forgotten by next Saturday.

 

Too often I hear of children who have been given a train set for Christmas, they've played with it for a few times and then it's gone in a cupboard followed by the bin/charity shop.

 

And no, parental encouragement on its own is no guarantee of keeping children in the hobby - but it can't happen otherwise. But in order for the parental encouragement to be there, there have to be the budget models that parents can buy without breaking the bank, or worrying that it'll break as soon as it comes out of the box, or that it will be a lot of money down the drain if their child changes their mind.

 

Mention was made of the price of an IET, and that it's no different to the price of a games console. There are however significant differences. Firstly, a PS2 is more robust and less likely to get broken, secondly if the child loses interest in a particular game, another game for the same PS2 is about £50. Another multiple unit on the other hand would be another £400. Buying a PS2 itself is more analagous to buying the layout infrastructure, rather than the rolling stock.

 

If children aren't interested because there are so many other interests, why are there  many young people saying "We're bored - we've nothing to do"?

[DK123GWR]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Fact is most modern railways are much less interesting than railways used to be. Many lines are suburban only and while there are plenty of trains, there might be 1 or 2 varieties. Is it surprising that many youngsters don't get interested in trains any more?

  To quote me on the 'why do you model BR Blue?' thread:

On 10/05/2020 at 21:53, DK123GWR said:

3) There is a larger variety of rolling stock. The brief period when GWR were changing over from HSTs to class 800s, and still had a few items of rolling stock in FGW purple is the most interesting period in my lifetime. I still remember an HST going past with a mixture of green and purple, as well as a first class coach in swallow livery. Every other point in my life has been watching the same shaped trains go past, wearing either purple or green. My love for EWS 66s must have something to do with the breaks from the relative monotony that they provided.

4) Related to 3, there were loco-hauled trains in rail blue. I live in the former WR, and have had a few trips on former SR routes as well as one journey from Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly. I have never been hauled by a locomotive on the mainline (excluding class 43s). In fact, I'm not sure that I've seen a diesel locomotive moving at high speed* before (although I did get a very good view of the Flying Scotsman a couple of years ago).

*No longer true - I saw a pair of Colas 67s top and tailing three coaches earlier in the week.

 

That said, I do think I would be more likely to model my childhood if the models were cheaper. A model of my railway memories (living in Chippenham, occaisionally travelling to Bristol - which I consider close enough to home for this purpose) would feature EWS 66s (easy - I have a RailRoad one already), and FGW/GWR 153s, 158s, 166s, HSTs, and IETs. Lets say I opt for my teenage years with GWR stock (but still using EWS locos because I like the livery more than the ones that are now prevalent). The HST is also reasonably priced as a Hornby train set, and while more expensive than the BR blue HSTs on ebay I assume it has been updated with a new motor and a full length Mk3 - can anyone confirm this? Then we hit trouble. Hornby make the 153 for a price that isn't off the scale (maybe it could be pushed down a little, but not much). However, it is only available in Regional Railways (not something a child is likely to recognise) or East Midlands Trains (only any good if you live in the area served - and looking up the livery I think it may be one inherited from Central Trains in 2007 when a current 17 year old would have been 4, so they may not remember that livery either). What about the 158s? Bachmann do produce two car units in GWR livery, but they cost over £200! It looks like no sprinters at all then. I am not aware of a GWR 166 - models exist for FGW but these seem to be hens teeth on ebay so I've no idea how much they cost. The IET is, of course, prohibitively expensive.

To begin to recify this, Hornby could release 153s in more liveries - doing GWR for example would cover most of southwest England and parts of Wales. Could Hornby produce a new 158 body on the chassis of a 156 and release it for a similar price to the 156? I suspect it would be feasable if they produced a number of liveries to make the model attractive to customers in other areas too and thus spread the tooling costs around more. I don't know what to suggest about Turbos and IETs, but I would suggest that a if a RailRoad IET existed it would be the staple of trainsets for the next few decades.

There's my five minute attempt to demonstrate a what a young person from near Bristol would face if they wanted to recreate their local railway. I'm sure that the situation is the same elsewhere.

 

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Many have possibly never taken a regular train, so why should they even think about model railways as a hobby - they don't.

From Chippenham, most young people will organise days out together in either Bath, Bristol, or London. Travel is usually by train. The interior of a train is a surprisingly common backdrop to people's instagram posts too - though of course these photos are probably more to do with showing off that you are 'going somewhere' than about showing a passion for railways. Nevertheless, in my experience rail travel remains popular among young people as driving yourself is expensive, being driven by your parents limits your independence, and increasingly because cars are polluting. When I did work experience in London, I was surprised by the number of children going to school on the tube (it's the urban equivalent of coaches from the villages I suppose). That said in the area I was staying, I would be unsupprised to hear that most people could barely afford a Holden 101, and tube stock is far less common (and more expensive) than those.

I therefore disagree that a lack of rail travel adversely affects the prevalence of young modellers.

[The Johnster]

41 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

There IS a cheape, entry level range.

its called “Second hand”

 

when I was young, in the 80’s, I’d look longingly at the Lima 87s, 60s and 47s in the display cabinets in Beatties, but I always returned to the second hand racks of Fratton Bargain Shop.

 

I saved and bought what I could afford, and if I was lucky, I’d get something new for a birthday or Christmas.

 

3/4 of my collection was used.

and I too dropped out of the hobby from about 13 years old.  It wasn’t until I had disposable income that I touched upon it again (at about 25 years of age)

 

But then I went a bit mental the next year and started a shop...

Which has recently sent me some station and yard lamps, with which I am delighted, thank you very much!

 

27 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

"We're bored - we've nothing to do"?

They say this because they're bored, and there's nothing to do.  You don't understand, I hate you, I didn't ask to be born you know, and everything else every teenager for the last 60 years has said to every parent for the last 60 years.  

 

They are bored because although there is plenty to do, they don't want to do any of it.  Been there, had the matt black painted bedroom with the purple 25 watt bare bulb and wondered why it made me depressed.  It was all my parents' fault, and their entire generation, of course, how could it possibly be anything to do with meeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

Back in the good old days we sent them down the pits, or the cotton mills, or as drummer boys in the front line of the next battle.  Kids terday, don't know their born...

[adb968008]

44 minutes ago, Trains4U said:

 

And there’s the rub...

that someone has to save, or keep dreaming.

 

I washed god knows how many cars to save up for a second hand Hornby 91 in 1989.

new ones were about £39, second hand, £25...

 

I did newspapers, mornings, evenings, sundays, 2 different free papers, i’d also get in early, incase someone else woke up late so i could nab there round too... £45 a week... and I added a xmas card at Christmas, ended up £400 in tips...not bad c1989, everyone was giving me fivers / tenners, though one person gave me 20p... I never forgot and he got his paper last thereafter.

There was one guy who I delivered ran a model shop, I found out as he had Rail Enthusiast delivered.. he became Numero uno, though I tried to not get the mag dirty whilst reading it before delivery, he had a bridge plate for a house number.

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by adb968008

[Pandora]

For N gauge, there are the Peco KNR wagons,  the same mouldings but un-panted as the ready to run wagons,   technically  a kit, but they simply clip together without gluing in about 2 minutes or less,  they sell for about £4.50 each though few shops stock them and  need to be ordered in for you.

My favourite is the KNR-67 bulk grain wagon,  giving a block train of 10 wagons for about £45

Edited August 16, 2020 by Pandora

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Accurascale, Cavalax, Flangeway, Realtrack, Revolution, Hattons, Oxford, KR, SLW and Rapido... all new entrants to manufacturing, but only 7 steam locos have been announced collectively by all of them... None have discounted anything modern, and several have done repeat runs..indeed Realtracks sold out models are fetching £400+, Apt-E is £800+, Accurascales 2nd run PFAs sold out within an afternoon.

 

With the proviso that I am not familiar with freight wagons and so are ignoring them, other than Accurascale none of those are really doing "modern" as in stuff that has been introduced in the last 10 years.  Now if you are talking anything non-steam, yes, but that is a bit irrelevant to this thread.

 

Oxford (newest is the Mk3, likely now discontinued), Rapido (newest APT-E), Hattons (newest Class 66, now going in the opposite direction with their Genesis coaches), KR (1960s), SLW (40+ years ago), Realtrack (30+ years ago), Revolution (18 years except the MkVs, but would they be doing them if Accurascale wasn't?),

 

Even Accurascale the only "modern" thing they have announced is the MkV, everything else for the most part seems to date back into the BR era.

 

So there is quite a pattern that for most of those companies for a product to be viable it needs to have existed in the BR era, so that it captures the prime 45+ year old market.

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i’ll sign off with this... I think the modern market is healthier in demand/price/supply ratio myself given the general sell out / non-discount... steam might be popular, but people aren't putting as much money down as is required to take them off the table...

just look at the left overs here.. theres only 3 diesels in it, and the steam prices, from £59 are very attractive.

https://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/store/search.asp?keyword=SpecialOffersOO

 

But can be misleading, given we don't know production quantities.

 

What we do know is that your list of newer entrants (except perhaps Hattons who have a different business model) either build to order or build based on pre-orders and a small number of extras - and this inherently leads to almost no discounting and higher second hand prices.

 

On the other hand it has been well documented on here that Hornby are frequently producing far too many of an item, leading to discounting to empty the warehouse and depressing the second hand market - and while Bachmann may not be ad bad there it certainly appears that they also produce to have an inventory for while, which again impacts the second hand market pricing.

 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

To me if the hobby has a future, it needs to embrace in some form, modern image, which doesnt preclude preserved steam, obscure rebuilds (NER and GW railmotors) and new builds (60163! 47xx, Saint, County etc)... but to me theres little mileage in tooling extinct LNER Black J 0-6-0’s and theres only so many times you can retool a pacific before the second hand market swamps it.

 

I do agree with this, there does need to be more modern stuff - but it is a bit of a chicken/egg problem at the moment.  The manufacturers aren't going to be in any hurry to make the multiple units that make up the modern railway was long as the customer base refuses to accept that tooling up multiple units costs money and they therefore can't be sold "cheap", particularly when almost everything is so regional these days.

 

So until the customer base accepts that reality the manufacturers will continue to chase the market that pays the bills - the 45+ year olds who grew up in the BR sectorization era and older.

[Legend]

3 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

But is part of that because there aren't enough affordable, robust models to maintain the interest?

 

After my parents gave me a Holden 0-4-0, three four wheel coaches and associated wagons for my 5th birthday (along with the 'loan' of a Triang controller and track and 'visits' from some of my father's locos), I think every birthday or Christmas for the next ten years brought forth some new addition to help maintain the interest (along with 12 doses of Railway Modeller a year!), and my father and I spent countless evenings assembling Airfix and Superquick kits together. Long-term there's a lot more satisfaction in being able to show someone something you made, even if it was a while back than saying "Oh, I kicked a piece of leather between two metal posts", which will have been completely forgotten by next Saturday.

 

Too often I hear of children who have been given a train set for Christmas, they've played with it for a few times and then it's gone in a cupboard followed by the bin/charity shop.

 

And no, parental encouragement on its own is no guarantee of keeping children in the hobby - but it can't happen otherwise. But in order for the parental encouragement to be there, there have to be the budget models that parents can buy without breaking the bank, or worrying that it'll break as soon as it comes out of the box, or that it will be a lot of money down the drain if their child changes their mind.

 

Mention was made of the price of an IET, and that it's no different to the price of a games console. There are however significant differences. Firstly, a PS2 is more robust and less likely to get broken, secondly if the child loses interest in a particular game, another game for the same PS2 is about £50. Another multiple unit on the other hand would be another £400. Buying a PS2 itself is more analagous to buying the layout infrastructure, rather than the rolling stock.

 

If children aren't interested because there are so many other interests, why are there  many young people saying "We're bored - we've nothing to do"?

Absolutely spot on sir! 

Just done a calculation based on my local car wash rates . I reckon an IET  is about 115 to 120 car washes ! 
 

But it’s not just the IET of course. When I was young, come to think of it even when I’m old, I want models of trains I’ve been on or seen . Look at the prices of these big hoppers £40-£50.   I still say Hornby could make a killing if they brought out a hopper in their Railroad range . Something for all these 66s they’ve been very successfully selling to pull . A representative hopper with play value , not  festooned wth hand fitted detail., if that is the reason for their high price .