Boosters for Roco Z21 & G Scale

[That Model Railway Guy]

Hi All,

 

I’m a newcomer to DCC and while I’ve had an old LGB MTS system for the garden railway for years, the rest of my layouts (00 & N) are still DC. Unfortunately the MTS system has recently stopped working and since it seems to be outdated technology now seems like a good time to upgrade and have a proper go at moving all my layouts over to DCC.

 

I really like the look of the Roco Z21 and it seems perfect for my 00 layouts but obviously a big reason for getting it is to also use it on the G Scale railway. Is this possible with the Z21 on it’s own or will I definitely need a booster? The garden railway isn’t huge (although there’s scope for a possible extension in the future) and I probably won’t have more than two, maybe three, locos running at a time. (All LGB 0-4-0’s and 0-6-0’s).

 

I looked into boosters it seemed like a lot of people were using the Uhlenbrock Power 7 or Power 8 with the Z21 for G Scale but these don’t appear to be available anymore. Perhaps I’m being thick but all I can find now is the Power 4 which only puts out 3.5 amps.

 

Another option I’ve looked at was the Digitrax DB210 which looks great but I have no idea if it’s compatible with the Z21. Does anyone know of any reason why it wouldn’t work or any extra hoops I’d have to jump through in order to get it to work? Ideally I want something that connects to the Z21 with minimal fuss as I’m not keen on having lots of adapters and extra bits and pieces to setup - especially if I’m moving this back and forth between the 00 layout and the garden railway.

 

There also seems to be the Roco XL Booster which has been announced but as far as I can see hasn’t been released yet. Presumably this would be the simplest option as it’s designed to be integrated with the Z21 but the price seems to be much higher than other options. These are just the boosters I've looked into so feel free to suggest others if there's anything else out there capable of providing enough amps for G Scale.

 

Finally, to circle all the way back round to “do I need a booster” -  what actually happens if the Z21 reaches it’s limit? Does it just stop working until you reset it or will it actually do damage and destroy the system/locos? I’ve heard you can monitor the current draw though the app so I’ve thought about getting a Z21 without a booster initially to see what the draw is and then making a decision on whether to get a booster or not based on how close I am to the limit. Or is this asking for trouble?

 

Apologies for the multitude of questions but hopefully everything above makes some sort of sense! Like I say, I’m definitely a newbie when it comes to DCC and I’ve tried to do as much research as I can on my own. Unfortunately I’ve been going round in circles for a while now, so I thought I’d ask for advice on here since you’re all much more knowledgeable than me!

 

Thanks in advance for any help and let me know if there’s any details I’ve forgotten.

[WIMorrison]

Have you considered the Roco boosters?

 

https://www.roco.cc/en/product/234818-10805-0-0-0-0-0-004003-0/products.html

 

https://www.roco.cc/en/product/234819-10806-0-0-0-0-0-004003-1/products.html

 

https://www.roco.cc/en/product/234820-10807-0-0-0-0-0-004003-0/products.html

 

The quality is excellent, they integrate seamlessly with the Z21 and they just - work

[That Model Railway Guy]

Hi WIMorrison,

 

Thanks for replying. Yes, as I mentioned I’ve looked at the announced Roco XL booster (I think that’s part of the Z21 range) which does seem to be a good solution and, as you say, just works. Unfortunately it doesn’t have a release date yet, or if it does I couldn’t find it. The price also seems to be much higher than other boosters out there as well as needing to buy a power supply on top of that. But I admit it is a good option and it may well be worth paying the extra just to have a simple solution once it’s released.

 

The ones you suggested seem to output 3A which is the same as the Z21 on it’s own isn’t it? So I wouldn’t actually be gaining anything there unless I split the layout into multiple sections, something which isn’t really possible - sorry should have made that clear in my initial post! 

 

Just looking at the dual booster, can you combine the two 3A outputs on that to have one 6A section? I’ve been led to believe (perhaps falsely?) that for G Scale you need a minimum of 5A to be safe. Certainly that’s what my MTS system had. But if it’s possible to combine the outputs to have just one 6A section that might also work.

 

I appreciate the suggestions though.  

[WIMorrison]

A booster - any booster - is used as you suggest to boost the power to a part of the layout, they aren’t designed (or meant to) provide you with extra amps to be used over the whole layout.

 

using the 10807 as an example this would give you 3A to power the accessories, 3A to one part of the track and another 3A to another part of the track - 6A in total. Trains pass across the boosted section without you seeing anything happening and you can add almost as many as your pocket can afford.

 

you could have 2 x 10807 which will give you 12A for the track and if you need more for accessories you spilt the accessory bus into multiples.

 

the DCC commands are sent simultaneously to ALL boosters at t same time hence all trains are controlled from one Z21

[That Model Railway Guy]

Ah apologies, I think I’ve got completely the wrong end of the stick then. I thought I’d seen others that were using just the output from the booster to power the whole layout and not bothering with the output from the Z21 itself other than to send the commands to the booster, but I’m guessing that’s not actually the case then?

 

It’s not really possible to split this layout into different electrical sections so perhaps the Z21 isn’t right for me and I’d be better off getting a DCC system that’s intended for larger scales that provides more amps from the outset.

 

Sorry if all this seems completely obvious to you, I’m just used to the simplistic MTS where everything is contained within one box and I didn’t have to think about it 

[Michael Hodgson]

Does the booster have to be one of those in the Z21 range or have I missed an important point? I was under the impression that pretty much any DCC booster should work, subject to  it supplying the same voltage?  Roco naturally want you to buy their product and won't be interested in supporting you if you have trouble while using something else.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Google gives me this ....

 

www.z21.eu/en/z21-system/general-information

For being perfectly adjusted to big scales (0, 1, 2/G), the Z21 components are also available with 6 A main track power. 

 

... which seems to suggest that there is a version better suited to your scale, which seems to be the Z21XL mentioned above.  As you are only talking about a couple of locos on the move and it's being marketed as fit for G scale, I would be extremely surprised if you need a booster with that assuming you are not talking about heavy trains up steep gradients.

 

https://www.z21.eu/en/products/z21-xl-series

Edited August 27, 2020 by Michael Hodgson
correction

[That Model Railway Guy]

33 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Does the booster have to be one of those in the Z21 range or have I missed an important point? I was under the impression that pretty much any DCC booster should work, subject to  it supplying the same voltage?  Roco naturally want you to buy their product and won't be interested in supporting you if you have trouble while using something else.

 

 

Hi Michael,

 

No, not at all. I think the conversation just turned to the Z21 boosters because they’re intended to be used with with the Z21 and so should be easy to setup.

 

In my first post I mentioned a couple of other boosters I’d looked at, the Ulhenbrock Power 8, which sadly doesn’t seem to be available anymore, and also the Digitrax DB210 but I don’t know if there’s compatibility issues between that and the Z21? But I’m happy to hear suggestions for other boosters as well.

 

Essentially I’m just having trouble finding a booster that will provide enough amps to accommodate the G Scale locos without having to go through adapters or split the layout into sections.

[That Model Railway Guy]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Google gives me this ....

 

www.z21.eu/en/z21-system/general-information

For being perfectly adjusted to big scales (0, 1, 2/G), the Z21 components are also available with 6 A main track power. 

 

... which seems to suggest that there is a version better suited to your scale, although I can't see what product that is.

 

I think that must be referring to the XL series which, like the XL booster, is yet to be released as far as I know: https://www.roco.cc/en/product/247002-xl-0-0-0-0-0-004-1/products.html

 

But it sounds like the track voltage isn’t adjustable on that version so presumably I wouldn’t be able to use it for my 00 layouts  Maybe what I want to do just isn't possible but I could have sworn I'd seen others doing something similar.

 

Thanks for looking though, I really appreciate the assistance.

[Michael Hodgson]

I've only just got a Z21 which I'm still exploring myself but very happy with it and interested in any issues may see with it.  I'm OO so don't need heavy duty power, but when I've finished that layout in a few years I might conceivably want to expand into the garden so it would be nice know if G scale is an option!  The biggest loco I have happens to be Roco HO and is a twin motored Swedish Dm3 (2-8-0 + 0-8-0 + 0-8-2 in steam notation!) which I was attracted to when my parents lived in Lapland ... I'm going to need a high current decoder for that lot but the Z21 will certainly cope with it.

[That Model Railway Guy]

Ah fantastic! Well I wish you the best of luck with the Z21. It looks like a fantastic system and I’m sure it’ll provide you with plenty of fun. Hopefully I’ll be able to join Z21 owners club someday but I need to make sure it can do what I want before I spend that kind of money 

[WIMorrison]

59 minutes ago, That Model Railway Guy said:

 

...

 

In my first post I mentioned a couple of other boosters I’d looked at, the Ulhenbrock Power 8, which sadly doesn’t seem to be available anymore, and also the Digitrax DB210 but I don’t know if there’s compatibility issues between that and the Z21? But I’m happy to hear suggestions for other boosters as well.

 

...

 

Not all boosters will work with all systems and you need to consider the interface. The Z21 has a Loconet (T) bus interface and that T is very important as that means Throttles. What you need for a booster interface is Loconet (B).  you can use Loconet (T) on a Loconet (B) interface but the (B) part will not work on a (T) interface and you need the (B) for a booster

 

Then you get into the different C-Bus, R-Bus Xpressnet, ... - boosters are quite as 'universal' as some people would have you believe.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Z21 XL version is going to be rather expensive.

It's advertised for pre-order at....

 

€600 for the Z21 XL system (Command Station and integral Booster) and.....

€235 for the Z21 XL Booster (add-on Booster)

 

Gaugemaster are advertising it at £560 & £220 respectively.

 

 

 

Just thinking "off-the-wall.

If you're not running many outdoor G-Scale  locos, an alternative might be a wireless solution, such as a Tam Valley DRS add-on transmitter for your chosen DCC system and receiver modules and batteries for the locos.

This way you can use your indoor layout's DCC system to control your DCC equipped garden trains and not have to worry about a DCC power supply to the outdoor tracks.

 

 

.

 

[That Model Railway Guy]

37 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Not all boosters will work with all systems and you need to consider the interface. The Z21 has a Loconet (T) bus interface and that T is very important as that means Throttles. What you need for a booster interface is Loconet (B).  you can use Loconet (T) on a Loconet (B) interface but the (B) part will not work on a (T) interface and you need the (B) for a booster

 

Then you get into the different C-Bus, R-Bus Xpressnet, ... - boosters are quite as 'universal' as some people would have you believe.

 

So I presume that means the Digitrax one is out then? 

[That Model Railway Guy]

34 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The Z21 XL version is going to be rather expensive.

It's advertised for pre-order at....

 

€600 for the Z21 XL system (Command Station and integral Booster) and.....

€235 for the Z21 XL Booster (add-on Booster)

 

Gaugemaster are advertising it at £560 & £220 respectively.

 

 

 

Just thinking "off-the-wall.

If you're not running many outdoor G-Scale  locos, an alternative might be a wireless solution, such as a Tam Valley DRS add-on transmitter for your chosen DCC system and receiver modules and batteries for the locos.

This way you can use your indoor layout's DCC system to control your DCC equipped garden trains and not have to worry about a DCC power supply to the outdoor tracks.

 

 

.

 

 

Hi Ron Ron Ron,

 

Yes that was my main thought regarding the price of the XL series, especially when there are other boosters out there that cost a lot less. It’s just finding one with enough amps that’s compatible with the Z21 that’s evading me at the moment.

 

It’s a fair point to bring up moving over to battery power but it’s not something I’m really looking to do at this time. If I was just starting out then it’d definitely be a consideration but as the railway is already well established and I don’t seem to suffer the problems of dirty track that most people do outdoors, I don’t really want to start dismantling my locos to fit batteries and receivers when I know everything works fine as it is.

 

Essentially I’m just looking to replace the broken MTS system and I was hoping the Z21 might be a good solution that would also push me to make a start on moving my 00 layouts over to DCC too. But it looks like that might have to wait for the moment and I just get a straight replacement of the G Scale DCC system instead.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though. Even if ultimately it’s not right for me it’s still worth considering every option and it might help someone in the future.

[Junctionmad]

Quote

A booster - any booster - is used as you suggest to boost the power to a part of the layout, they aren’t designed (or meant to) provide you with extra amps to be used over the whole layout.

Err not so 

 

we use a Z21 on our O gauge and we quickly exceeded the 3A limit ( it resets and stops by the way ). As we have a single DCC bus of considerable capacity , it’s not possible to split the DCC system. 

 

We used the 10Amp MERG DCC booster kit ( 30 odd quid) and simply fed it from the Z21 track output , essentially not using the 3A Z21 capacity anymore. Works perfect . The booster has its own mains driven DC 15A capable switching power supply 

 

dcc doesnt care whether you have one big booster or multiple smaller boosters , clearly your DCC bus wiring must be up to the job however  ( our DCC bus is good to 25A) , each baseboard has local short circuit / overload protection also 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Junctionmad

[PaulRhB]

I used the Uhlenbrock Power 7 Booster with my Z21 for G scale. I think it’s been replaced by the Power 8 now but it gave me 8 amps and is still trouble free. As the MERG option above I just fed it from the Z21 output for the signal as described in their instructions. 

 

The smaller UK layout 

 

and G scale HSB 22x10ft

Edited September 3, 2020 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

On 27/08/2020 at 18:20, WIMorrison said:

they aren’t designed (or meant to) provide you with extra amps to be used over the whole layout.

Well you do if you are potentially using locos capable of drawing 4-6 amps like my USA trains and Aristocraft locos could under heavy load

It’s common in G scale to use big boosters because the dedicated 10-12 amp systems by Massoth are so expensive. It also means you can use the Z21 output on your smaller scale layouts and just plug in the booster to run the G scale  

I had several locos that drew 2-3 amps under load with sound so you needed more than the Z21’s standard output just to have them on the layout together if you ran two at once. 
I got my Uhlenbrock boosters from DccAutomation so might be worth giving James a call to see if the Power 8 is still around. 
 

[That Model Railway Guy]

13 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

Err not so 

 

we use a Z21 on our O gauge and we quickly exceeded the 3A limit ( it resets and stops by the way ). As we have a single DCC bus of considerable capacity , it’s not possible to split the DCC system. 

 

We used the 10Amp MERG DCC booster kit ( 30 odd quid) and simply fed it from the Z21 track output , essentially not using the 3A Z21 capacity anymore. Works perfect . The booster has its own mains driven DC 15A capable switching power supply 

 

dcc doesnt care whether you have one big booster or multiple smaller boosters , clearly your DCC bus wiring must be up to the job however  ( our DCC bus is good to 25A) , each baseboard has local short circuit / overload protection also 

 

Ah fantastic! I was hoping that it was possible to use just the power from the booster as you described but being very new to DCC I didn’t want to assume anything. Thanks for that information, that’s really helpful.

 

The 10amp MERG DCC booster kit sounds great. Even taking the membership fee into consideration that’s a very good price. How tricky is it to put together? I’d certainly put myself more towards the beginner end of the spectrum with this sort of thing! 

 

[That Model Railway Guy]

12 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Well you do if you are potentially using locos capable of drawing 4-6 amps like my USA trains and Aristocraft locos could under heavy load

It’s common in G scale to use big boosters because the dedicated 10-12 amp systems by Massoth are so expensive. It also means you can use the Z21 output on your smaller scale layouts and just plug in the booster to run the G scale  

I had several locos that drew 2-3 amps under load with sound so you needed more than the Z21’s standard output just to have them on the layout together if you ran two at once. 
I got my Uhlenbrock boosters from DccAutomation so might be worth giving James a call to see if the Power 8 is still around. 
 

 

Yes I started out looking at the Massoth systems too and also came to that conclusion. As you say part of what attracted me to the Z21 was the ability to bring my 00 gauge layouts over to DCC and then plug in a booster for the garden railway, so great to know that is possible after all.

 

My searches for the Ulhenbrock Power 7 and Power 8 have drawn blanks so far and all I can seem to find is the Power 4. Fingers crossed the Power 8 hasn’t been completely discontinued and they’re just currently unavailable because of the “current situation”. I’ll definitely get in touch with DCCAutomation to see if they know what the situation is.

 

Both those layouts you showed look great by the way! Always nice to see G Scale stuff indoors 

[Ron Ron Ron]

In case you don't know, or haven't realised (apologies if you already know and understand), an external Booster can obtain its DCC signal input in one of three ways.

Boosters normally only work with one off these options.

 

1. A connection to the dedicated Booster output, from a Command Station (or daisy chained through another Booster where that facility exists and is being employed)

The input signal is the low power DCC signal from the Command Station, prior to being "amplified" by a Booster and is not sufficient for use as track power before being "amplified".

The outputs for connecting an external Booster on a Command Station are sometimes marked C,D,E, which indicates the NMRA Standard "Power Station interface".

This was the original DCC architecture adopted by the NMRA, from the original Lenz DCC design.

 

2. Some Boosters can be connected to an existing DCC Power/Track bus, or Power/Track bus output of any DCC system.

This type of Booster discards the DCC track power and just reads (eavesdrops or sniffs) the DCC signal component, which it then uses to create its own DCC Power/Track bus output.

This type of Booster should be able to work off any DCC system's track output.

 

3. Some manufacturers use a different system architecture and feed the Command Station DCC signal output to their Booster, via a combined data bus, shared with their throttle/cab bus.

For example Digitrax, use Loconet, which carries both throttle/cab data traffic as well as using it to carry the low level DCC output to their Boosters.

ESU use their own Cab Bus, ECoSLink, in a similar fashion.

 

Make sure you choose a Booster than can work with your chosen DCC system.

 

 

.

 

 

[Junctionmad]

6 hours ago, That Model Railway Guy said:

 

Ah fantastic! I was hoping that it was possible to use just the power from the booster as you described but being very new to DCC I didn’t want to assume anything. Thanks for that information, that’s really helpful.

 

The 10amp MERG DCC booster kit sounds great. Even taking the membership fee into consideration that’s a very good price. How tricky is it to put together? I’d certainly put myself more towards the beginner end of the spectrum with this sort of thing! 

 

Not difficult to build at all , all big chunky components. Lots of help on the merg forum 

 

you need to add a suitable power supply 16-18v dc. Many low cost switched mode units available on eBay 

[That Model Railway Guy]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

In case you don't know, or haven't realised (apologies if you already know and understand), an external Booster can obtain its DCC signal input in one of three ways.

Boosters normally only work with one off these options.

 

1. A connection to the dedicated Booster output, from a Command Station (or daisy chained through another Booster where that facility exists and is being employed)

The input signal is the low power DCC signal from the Command Station, prior to being "amplified" by a Booster and is not sufficient for use as track power before being "amplified".

The outputs for connecting an external Booster on a Command Station are sometimes marked C,D,E, which indicates the NMRA Standard "Power Station interface".

This was the original DCC architecture adopted by the NMRA, from the original Lenz DCC design.

 

2. Some Boosters can be connected to an existing DCC Power/Track bus, or Power/Track bus output of any DCC system.

This type of Booster discards the DCC track power and just reads (eavesdrops or sniffs) the DCC signal component, which it then uses to create its own DCC Power/Track bus output.

This type of Booster should be able to work off any DCC system's track output.

 

3. Some manufacturers use a different system architecture and feed the Command Station DCC signal output to their Booster, via a combined data bus, shared with their throttle/cab bus.

For example Digitrax, use Loconet, which carries both throttle/cab data traffic as well as using it to carry the low level DCC output to their Boosters.

ESU use their own Cab Bus, ECoSLink, in a similar fashion.

 

Make sure you choose a Booster than can work with your chosen DCC system.

 

 

.

 

 

 

I was aware of that some boosters weren’t compatible with some types of command stations but previously I wasn’t sure what the differences and variations were or what I should be looking out for in different boosters. That was part of my original question with regards to the Digitrax booster but I don’t think I explained myself properly there - sorry!

 

That said, thanks to this thread I have a bit more understanding and your post above seems to confirm I’m on the right lines now. Luckily both the MERG and Ulhenbrock boosters, which seem to be my best bet at the moment, connect directly to the command station’s main output and take the signal from there instead of a dedicated booster output which is simple enough even for me to understand. 

[That Model Railway Guy]

51 minutes ago, Junctionmad said:

Not difficult to build at all , all big chunky components. Lots of help on the merg forum 

 

you need to add a suitable power supply 16-18v dc. Many low cost switched mode units available on eBay 

 

52 minutes ago, Junctionmad said:

Not difficult to build at all , all big chunky components. Lots of help on the merg forum 

 

you need to add a suitable power supply 16-18v dc. Many low cost switched mode units available on eBay 

 

Fantastic! Well if I can’t find a Ulhenbrock booster anytime soon it looks like the MERG kit is a great option!

 

Luckily the 18v transformer from my LGB system is still working perfectly so it might try giving that a go first 

[Junctionmad]

unfortunately too many boosters are created on the basis of being “ added” to the existing dcc output ( be it a booster or command station/booster ) , ie by running another dcc feed bus. 
 

this is problematic where you already have multiple baseboards and an installed dcc buss 

 

Most  boosters simply typically duplicate the rating of the existing command station , this isn’t any use of you can’t easily add additional dcc buses 

 

additional busses are no use equally if you can’t easily identify seperate track zones  so that the current can be split , you may find you simply need more current in all track sections. 
 

hence there is a dearth of big boosters , the merg One is the only one I know of that capability 

 

 

there are three types of booster interface 

 

(a) proprietary , ie loconet , Zimo can , Z21 can etc 

 

(b) CDE ( command data , error ) this is a logic level interface to the booster devised by Lenz , it’s a simple dcc interface with short circuit feedback 

 

(c) direct dcc connection , a few boosters support simply connecting to the output of the command station directly , ie the dcc track output 

 

while you can use those boosters (C) in parallel with the command station ,but feeding shortage dcc busses ,  it’s also useful to completely supplant the command station with the new booster.  This is the easiest upgrade ASSUMING your bus wiring is rated fir the new booster 

 

note that in (C) short circuits are handled in the new booster and status is not fed back to the original command station , which it is in (A) and (B) 

 

If you are using Railcom ( C) may not be a wise choice as typically the cutout is not propagated by the booster 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Junctionmad