York station in the 1950's.

[Michael Hodgson]

Probably, with a basic mechanical digger at York instead of the usual cheap labour approach of men with shovels and a wheelbarrow.  Unpleasant job - water would be useful in containing the dust otherwise the atmosphere would have been intolerable, also to reduce fire risk, but no doubt makes it even heavier to shift.  I wouldn't have thought the stuff was easy to flush away.  Are you sure the hoses weren't just to spray it and keep the dust down, or for hosing down loco ashpans?  There might well be some form of (well protected) lighting within the pit if it was done by hand.

 

I think this site probsly gives you the answer

http://6gshed.co.uk/steamlocomotivedepotlayout.htm

 

There's an old thread about ash disposal here

 

[iands]

Hi Giles,

 

A very nice model of the wet ash pits. I don't know if you are already aware, but there is a "Behind the Scenes" (Volume 4) DVD from TeleRail (Fastline Films FL0403) shot in 1946 at York shed, titled "The layout of locomotive facilities." It is a fascinating film and provides quite a bit of detail including a small steam crane with a grab bucket for emptying the ash pits, a hand-cranked "pit trolley" for access under the locos, and how he ash pit grills are moved (not lifted, but slid along using the small steam crane!). Also the ash pits were about 15 feet deep, filled to a depth of about 10 feet with water.

[Harry Lund]

Ian, Michael.  Thank you so much, and for the information about the video.  I have somewhere a photo of the steam crane/grab 'standing by', and I have a D&S kit for the LNER 15T steam crane in the box of kits.   Useful to know about the sliding grates.   What I havn't worked out was what the surface looked like in the pit itself - water or ash?   I had thought it would be ash sludge, hence the sculptamould 'bed' you see in the photos.  But I now wonder if it would be better to model a 'water' surface, i.e. flat.    Any thoughts?   Have you got a copy of the DVD I could borrow?    Giles

[Harry Lund]

I've been cogitating on how the townscape behind Earlsborough Terrace on the Eastern bank of the River might look.

 

The main challenge is how to deal with the ground level changes between Earlsborough T, and the terrace behind which sits over the Down Main storage roads.   Some architectural license may be needed ...... !

 

The foamboard framework will be removeable.

 

A few photos of the emerging mockup, using a terrace recovered from a previous layout.

 

Giles

[Rowsley17D]

I hate to say it at this stage but does Peter's terraced houses need their backs now? Or have I missed something?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Rowsley17D

[Neil]

You could I suppose model only the front and roof of the first terrace back, the roof sitting on top of the storage yard baseboard. The trees which line the railway will all help it fade into the background and disguise the change in height.

 

Also if you're in the mood for constructive suggestions can I suggest that the treatment of the river is revisited, it looks more like a chalk trout stream than the mighty Ouse. It's the one thing which really grates to the eyes of this York ex-pat.

[Harry Lund]

Jonathan.   You havn't missed anything, yes the backs will need to go on, but not fixed.   The low relief of the terrace was to butt up to the original backscene.....   yes I know, measure twice, cut once.

 

Neil.   Jury still out on options to manage that change in height, none of which will reflect reality, so my defence will have to be modellers license.   As to river colour, in the depths of this thread, there was a spirited discussion between participants about how the river might of looked given what was happening upstream in the 1950s.     Peter did his best!   There is still a few years work to complete the overall 'York canvas' at which point I'll work out which bits need detailing and/or redoing,   Not to mention building out the motive power and rolling stock.    I hope you will forgive me, but I'll probably leave the the river surface as it is. 

 

Giles

 

  

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Harry Lund said:

As to river colour, in the depths of this thread, there was a spirited discussion between participants about how the river might of looked given what was happening upstream in the 1950s.     Peter did his best!   There is still a few years work to complete the overall 'York canvas' at which point I'll work out which bits need detailing and/or redoing,   Not to mention building out the motive power and rolling stock.    I hope you will forgive me, but I'll probably leave the the river surface as it is. 

 

Giles 

Interesting thought.  My impressions as an infrequent visitor to the city have been that the river generally looked pretty tranquil to me, if a bid muddy, though media coverage has always been when the water level is far too high and the town flooded !  So what would be "right" in the period is a question with several valid answers.

 

Much of this country in the 1950s still bore many scars from the previous decade (and northern France was worse).  They would obviously have picked up this debris immediately and mended infrastructure in order to resume urgent wartime traffic, but proper repairs would be a low priority and neither steel nor labour would have been available at the time, a problem which lasted into the 1950s; even food was still on ration until 1954.

 

So how long after hostilities had ceased would they leave the place looking like this ?

 

[coronach]

3 hours ago, Harry Lund said:

Jonathan.   You havn't missed anything, yes the backs will need to go on, but not fixed.   The low relief of the terrace was to butt up to the original backscene.....   yes I know, measure twice, cut once.

 

Neil.   Jury still out on options to manage that change in height, none of which will reflect reality, so my defence will have to be modellers license.   As to river colour, in the depths of this thread, there was a spirited discussion between participants about how the river might of looked given what was happening upstream in the 1950s.     Peter did his best!   There is still a few years work to complete the overall 'York canvas' at which point I'll work out which bits need detailing and/or redoing,   Not to mention building out the motive power and rolling stock.    I hope you will forgive me, but I'll probably leave the the river surface as it is. 

 

Giles

 

  

My late Father was a bridge engineer with BR at York and had a significant role in projects affecting the swing bridges over the Ouse at Selby and Goole.  I remember him commenting that the river at Goole was 30% silt - always brown.

 

[TrevorP1]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Interesting thought.  My impressions as an infrequent visitor to the city have been that the river generally looked pretty tranquil to me, if a bid muddy, though media coverage has always been when the water level is far too high and the town flooded !  So what would be "right" in the period is a question with several valid answers.

 

Much of this country in the 1950s still bore many scars from the previous decade (and northern France was worse).  They would obviously have picked up this debris immediately and mended infrastructure in order to resume urgent wartime traffic, but proper repairs would be a low priority and neither steel nor labour would have been available at the time, a problem which lasted into the 1950s; even food was still on ration until 1954.

 

So how long after hostilities had ceased would they leave the place looking like this ?

 

When I was a little lad in the early 1960s I remember my Dad pointing out to me the marks and minor damage caused by shrapnel to the footbridge at Southampton Central - this some 20 years after the last bombs fell. 

[mullie]

I seem to remember parts of central London still showed scars in the early 80s when I lived there.

 

Martyn

[Michael Hodgson]

Sorry, off topic but you can still see numerous shards of glass embedded in the timbers of Soham signalbox which like the station building was "completely destroyed" by an explosion a couple of days before D Day, killing the signalman and earning the George Cross for both the driver (posthumously) and fireman of the burning ammunition train.  The box was in fact repaired and is now much travelled, currently at the Mid Norfolk Railway.

https://signalbox.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/soham.jpg

Edited June 16, 2023 by Michael Hodgson

[Neil]

On 16/06/2023 at 12:09, Michael Hodgson said:

Interesting thought.  My impressions as an infrequent visitor to the city have been that the river generally looked pretty tranquil to me, if a bid muddy, though media coverage has always been when the water level is far too high and the town flooded !  So what would be "right" in the period is a question with several valid answers. ...

 

I lived in York for the first forty seven years of my life and the Ouse never looks as depicted. It's a deep river, deep enough for navigation and while the colour will vary from brown through green to blue depending on the sky and reflections it's not a river where you can see the bottom. Here's a collection of images showing the river at a normal level; even in times of drought it's kept pretty much like this by the weir and locks a few miles downstream at Naburn. 

[Harry Lund]

Its back to the Ash Pits this week.

 

Perfectionism alert.  I was sent some details of how the ashpits looked and worked - after I had made the main section!   Turns out the pits extend under the tracks and there is a hand operated trolley running along the pits under the locos.   Too good to ignore.   But a case of research 3 times, measure twice, cut once would have helped here!

So I've spent the afternoon reworking the pits under the rails, and then fitting the remaining gratings which also slid on rollers creating the spaces for the steam grab to do its work.

1st Photo is of the main section with the sloping sides between rails removed.

 

Then a couple of the reworked pits with grates fitted.

 

 

 

Just the trolleys themselves to scratch build, a few pipes between rails (which will double as gauge ties) then painting and oily water surface to complete.

 

Giles

 

 

[TerryBewdley]

Stunning 

[Rowsley17D]

A lot of reworking but best to get it done now. Looks impressive.

[iands]

Glad the info was of use - but sorry for all the re-work it has caused you!

 

Edit

Forgot to add: 'Brilliant work by the way!'

Edited June 23, 2023 by iands
Added comment

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Harry Lund said:

Its back to the Ash Pits this week.

 

Perfectionism alert.  I was sent some details of how the ashpits looked and worked - after I had made the main section!   Turns out the pits extend under the tracks and there is a hand operated trolley running along the pits under the locos.   Too good to ignore.   But a case of research 3 times, measure twice, cut once would have helped here!

So I've spent the afternoon reworking the pits under the rails, and then fitting the remaining gratings which also slid on rollers creating the spaces for the steam grab to do its work.

1st Photo is of the main section with the sloping sides between rails removed.

 

Then a couple of the reworked pits with grates fitted.

 

 

 

Just the trolleys themselves to scratch build, a few pipes between rails (which will double as gauge ties) then painting and oily water surface to complete.

 

Giles

 

 

"Just" he says !

Excellent work.  Good to see how they really worked - but I wonder whether we fully understand it yet. 

So the grab crane would have emptied it, but where would it put it?   Would the extracted waste be conveyed out to wherever by rail? 

How - as dripping wet sludge in unsheeted wooden- or steel-bodied open wagons? 

Presumably they had to try and drain off most of the water.  Was dirty water taken away in tank wagons or simply returned to the pit?

[iands]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

"Just" he says !

Excellent work.  Good to see how they really worked - but I wonder whether we fully understand it yet. 

So the grab crane would have emptied it, but where would it put it?   Would the extracted waste be conveyed out to wherever by rail? 

How - as dripping wet sludge in unsheeted wooden- or steel-bodied open wagons? 

Presumably they had to try and drain off most of the water.  Was dirty water taken away in tank wagons or simply returned to the pit?

The grab crane dumped the 'ash sludge' straight into wooden bodied wagons. The water just drained out (they weren't water tight). Not sure where the ash was 'disposed' of though. 

[sir douglas]

Would have been handed over to P-way to use as ballast?

[Harry Lund]

Oh dear.  Further close examination of the research material reveals that the pits were made up of cells, rather than one long pit.  Of course they were, both for structural stability and for corralling the ash so it could be picked up in batches by the grab.

 

Cells installed.

 

 

 

 

The cells should extend into the pit below the tracks - but I think I'll draw a line there.  

 

Giles

 

 

[hmrspaul]

On 23/06/2023 at 19:47, iands said:

Not sure where the ash was 'disposed' of though. 

There was a tip at Barlow, south east of Selby. Possibly where it went? This is labelled for the tip https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br5pldropside/ef46a5ea7  would have been useful for ash. 

 

Paul

 

[iands]

5 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

There was a tip at Barlow, south east of Selby. Possibly where it went? This is labelled for the tip https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/br5pldropside/ef46a5ea7  would have been useful for ash. 

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

It was useful for all sorts of rubbish. I've thrown a few buckets of trash into that very wagon in my time with the Selby S&T Linemen.  

I had thought about the ash being 'tripped' to Barlow, and it may well have been. Equally, the ash could have gone to numerous other 'landfill sites' (old quarries etc.). I did wonder if the ash could have been used during and immediately after WW2 to help 'in-fill' bomb craters?

 

Not wishing to side-track Giles' great thread, I do wonder where all the ash from all the steam depots ended up, there must have been millions of tons of the stuff produced over the years.

Edited June 29, 2023 by iands
spill chucker

[73c]

Woking Pre Assembly Depot was mostly built on loco ash. Once a month or so the local fire brigade would turn up and spend a few hours hosing the ground down, as deep underneath it was still smouldering and that was back in the late 70's early 80's.

[Harry Lund]

Back from hols.   Its been a 'bitty' few weeks, working on too many things at the same time, seemingly making little progress with any.   So getting the first batch of signals installed at the northern end has been good for morale.   The signals, hand made using photos of the real ones, are from Absolute Aspects and are works of art.   I've made a bit of a mess of the platforms, so some touching up needed.      Roger Cooper is working on the electronic and software gubbins that will drive them from the DCC system.   

 

Who would have thought getting a good photo of a signal from an iphone could be so difficult ....

 

All will need weathering in due course.   

 

Signals 228 and 230 on platforms 8N and 7 respectively.   The gantry signal was in reality two single masts, but the narrow platform required some modellers license.    The design is taken from a gantry for the starter signals for platforms 2 & 3 at the southern end.  

 

 

Signal 232 on platform 6.   (Platforms 5 & 4 don't exist on the model as the short 44' roof span has been omitted.

 

 

Signal 162 for platform 12, and 168 for Platform 9N and the Down Main  (Just realised this is an early photo.   162 is set down into the platform rather than standing proud as shown)

 

 

Signal 160, controlling movement from Platform 14 across the Waterworks crossing.

 

 

The sharp eyed may notice that the River Ouse, the Scarborough bridge and Earslborough Terrace have gone walkabout.   I have had a major rethink on the scenic arrangements in this section of the layout, the upshot of which is that we will be able to extend the river along the back of the layout.   This meant I have had to re-align the hidden main lines and move the Up fiddle yard further round, and remove swathes of baseboard, all easier with the Ouse board removed.     I'll post photos when done.

 

Giles