York station in the 1950's.

[Harry Lund]

Thank you so much John.   Those will keep me going!   And Ian, thanks for the idea about how to play in the odd Rowntrees 'special'.   As ever, Giles

[Michael Hodgson]

Those crossing gates are in a quite distinctive style, NER pattern to the diagonal bracing and tall hinge posts with stay wire because of the length, but with additional horizontal timber about half-way up to support chicken wire.  I think the red reflective strips on the top member of the gate would be more recent than the period Giles is modelling.  I don't know whether that brick relay room next to the box is in period or not, my suspicion is that it's later.

 

Also of note is the gate lamp - because the crossing is on a skew, the lamp isn't mounted square on to the gate as is usual, it is angled so that it faces traffic when the gate is across the road.

 

I like the suggestion that the Foss Islands branch be deemed to come off the Market Weighton line to enable running the odd Rowntrees train that way.

 

 

[iands]

Re Bootham Crossing gates, as well as the bits that @Michael Hodgson has mentioned, at the time the photos were taken they show that the gates weren't 'mechanically' operated from a gate wheel in the signal box but 'motor' operated (the large grey box at the toe-end of the gates). I'm not sure when these were fitted (e.g. in the model period) but they were certainly there in 1974 during my 'secondment' to the York-Malton lineman as a Trainee with the S&T. I'll see if I can narrow down the time frame a bit. 

[john new]

37 minutes ago, iands said:

Re Bootham Crossing gates, as well as the bits that @Michael Hodgson has mentioned, at the time the photos were taken they show that the gates weren't 'mechanically' operated from a gate wheel in the signal box but 'motor' operated (the large grey box at the toe-end of the gates). I'm not sure when these were fitted (e.g. in the model period) but they were certainly there in 1974 during my 'secondment' to the York-Malton lineman as a Trainee with the S&T. I'll see if I can narrow down the time frame a bit. 

Sorry I can’t narrow the date down closer without a big turnover in the stored negs boxes; the one’s out were in an album I had compiled to put out on a show stand at a photographic society event of members interests.

[coronach]

1 hour ago, iands said:

Re Bootham Crossing gates, as well as the bits that @Michael Hodgson has mentioned, at the time the photos were taken they show that the gates weren't 'mechanically' operated from a gate wheel in the signal box but 'motor' operated (the large grey box at the toe-end of the gates). I'm not sure when these were fitted (e.g. in the model period) but they were certainly there in 1974 during my 'secondment' to the York-Malton lineman as a Trainee with the S&T. I'll see if I can narrow down the time frame a bit. 

I enjoyed a three week secondment to the York-Malton lineman in 1980 - by then they had been given a yellow van but had not had it for long.  I was told that before the van they would catch the bus and walk to the signal boxes - which was a long walk for Kirkham Abbey!  Presumably this arrangement superseded catching the 'Milk train'. Technicians Peter Neil and John Cornforth had a small office in the corner by the main road entrance to the station.  I remember visiting Bootham and Burton Lane signal boxes with then to maintain the gates and signalling equipment - a four weekly maintenance rotation.  Burton Lane retained a NER lower quadrant home signal protecting the exit from the Foss Islands Branch.  As an aside, I think it was Haxby Up Distant that now has pride of place in York station foyer.

 

[iands]

5 hours ago, coronach said:

I enjoyed a three week secondment to the York-Malton lineman in 1980 - by then they had been given a yellow van but had not had it for long.  I was told that before the van they would catch the bus and walk to the signal boxes - which was a long walk for Kirkham Abbey!  Presumably this arrangement superseded catching the 'Milk train'. Technicians Peter Neil and John Cornforth had a small office in the corner by the main road entrance to the station.  I remember visiting Bootham and Burton Lane signal boxes with then to maintain the gates and signalling equipment - a four weekly maintenance rotation.  Burton Lane retained a NER lower quadrant home signal protecting the exit from the Foss Islands Branch.  As an aside, I think it was Haxby Up Distant that now has pride of place in York station foyer.

 

Les Gowland (Lineman) and John Cornforth (Assistant) were the guys during my time with them (about 16 weeks). Absolutely loved it. Yes, we used the buses every day - except the very rare occasion when the Supervisor had use of the van to drop off some equipment/stores. The buses could on occasion be an absolute bu**er though. I recall one day we had just got to Strensall SB to carry out a bit of regular maintenance to be greeted with a message to attend an urgent fault at Haxby. No direct bus service between the two places, so it was all the way back into York and then catch another bus to Haxby. Yes, it was a long walk to Kirkham Abbey from the bus stop on the A64, down hill in the morning, but up hill in the afternoon! Unless of course it was the maintenance job for that week to walk from Kirkham Abbey to Malton testing track circuits. As I say, I absolutely loved my time there. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by iands
spillchucker

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, iands said:

Re Bootham Crossing gates, as well as the bits that @Michael Hodgson has mentioned, at the time the photos were taken they show that the gates weren't 'mechanically' operated from a gate wheel in the signal box but 'motor' operated (the large grey box at the toe-end of the gates). I'm not sure when these were fitted (e.g. in the model period) but they were certainly there in 1974 during my 'secondment' to the York-Malton lineman as a Trainee with the S&T. I'll see if I can narrow down the time frame a bit. 

That's interesting as BR(NER) seem to have been leaders in automating level crossings.  The first "continental" style or barrier crossing was at Warthill on the York-Beverley line in 1954, and this required legislation since the previous requirement was that gates should swing across the railway.  Before that though, there was no reason why you could not motorise gates as at Bootham. 

 

The number of gates at a crossing can often be deduced from signal box diagrams, as the arc swept by the tip of the gate is usually drawn.  Where the arcs intersect, the gates foul one another so one must be opened before the other.  This is not a problem for manually worked gates as the crossing keeper/signalman inevitably pushes one over then the other.  Such crossing gates were therefore usually long, the full width of the road. 

 

However wheel operated crossings usually had four gates where road and railway were of similar width, because two full width gates would foul each other if you tried to operated them simultaneously, which is the easiest way to do it mechanically.  This isn't necessarily true of skew crossings, also the gates may be of unequal length in such cases so that their arcs do not intersect.  But gatewheel mechanisms could include an escapement in order to swing gates consecutively.  If the gates are worked by separate electric motors as here though, it is much easier to arrange for one to be opened then the other, so this approach is OK with long gates.  Other regions of BR don't seem to have gone in for this; whether any of it goes back to LNER I don't know.

 

I thought gates worked by such motors were generally of the "boom" style however, as shown here

https://signalbox.org/photo-gallery/north-eastern-railway/billingham/

https://signalbox.org/photo-gallery/north-eastern-railway/brampton-fell/

https://signalbox.org/photo-gallery/north-eastern-railway/tile-shed/

 

[iands]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The first "continental" style or barrier crossing was at Warthill on the York-Beverley line in 1954, ..........

 

 

With apologies to Giles for hijacking his thread, and at risk of going seriously OT, the installation of barriers at Warthill being the "first" is an interesting one. I too was told this, and indeed have quoted the same detail myself on RMweb in the past. I guess it depends on how you define 'first' and perhaps in what 'configuration'. I think it's certain that the installation at Warthill was the first wheel worked lifting barriers, but whilst assisting a friend with a bit of research for his book (Selby's Railways Explored) it came to light that 'lifting barriers' were installed at Barlby Crossing in 1937, with a specific date of 27th July. A suggestion being that each barrier was worked from it's own lever. Yes, the crossing allowed access from one part of the then BOCM factory to another part of the same factory across the railway, but it was (and still is) a public road. Needless to say I've been trying to find documentary proof of the date and how the barriers were operated to confirm the statement, but as yet I've not been successful - but I will keep trying!

[Harry Lund]

An education!   From the layout point of view, I will be modelling the signal box but am cogitating over the level crossing - I have to find a way of disguising the Hull lines where they disappear behind the backscene.   I had wondered if a bridge would work, but like the idea of the crossing, on principle, and I have a rather nice set of GNR gates from a dismantled layout that either I could adapt, or not and spin a yarn about the GNR spreading up towards Hull/Scarborough.   At which point, touch paper lit, I will retire...

 

More seriously, thanks as always for the interest.

 

Giles

[john new]

As you are already modifying the Scarborough & Hull line by not modelling Burton Lane junction you have the  Chrichton Ave bridge and associated embanked road ramps as a natural scenic break. I don’t know when that was built but from the road layout with truncated road spurs either side of the line I think it replaced a level crossing. It is brick and concrete. The roads are Field View (Burton Stone Lane side of the line) and the unnamed road that went down the side of the scrap yard in the V of the Foss Islands Branch as a downhill sloping spur off Wigginton Rd. (No 3rd G)

 

Alternatively if you go closer to the station the footbridge known locally as Glass Bridge crossing to the footpath between the two hospitals also gives a scenic break. Again not sure when the modern concrete bridge went in, I have seen a photo of the original NER bridge, IIRC on the York Evening Press web site.

 

That does give you a choice of either of the signal boxes to model.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by john new
Remembered an extra point so added it.

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, john new said:

As you are already modifying the Scarborough & Hull line by not modelling Burton Lane junction you have the  Chrichton Ave bridge and associated embanked road ramps as a natural scenic break. I don’t know when that was built but from the road layout with truncated road spurs either side of the line I think it replaced a level crossing. It is brick and concrete. The roads are Field View (Burton Stone Lane side of the line) and the unnamed road that went down the side of the scrap yard in the V of the Foss Islands Branch as a downhill sloping spur off Wigginton Rd. (No 3rd G)

 

Alternatively if you go closer to the station the footbridge known locally as Glass Bridge crossing to the footpath between the two hospitals also gives a scenic break. Again not sure when the modern concrete bridge went in, I have seen a photo of the original NER bridge, IIRC on the York Evening Press web site.

 

That does give you a choice of either of the signal boxes to model.

 

 

IIRC Crichton Avenue bridge replaced the level crossing sometime in the 1920s with the development of the council housing estate at the country end of Burton Stone Lane. The current concrete footbridge to the old York City Football Ground, at what we always called Asylum Lane (from the nearby Bootham Hospital), was installed again IIRC in the late early 1960s - there’s a photo feature on its installation in a contemporary Railway Modeller. EDIT - see later posts.

 

Never heard of the footbridge being called Glass Bridge - presumably that was the nickname for the original NER footbridge.

 

RichardT (also a former resident of Burton Stone Lane!)

Edited January 9, 2023 by RichardT
Amending guesstimate date in light of later posts

[john new]

19 minutes ago, RichardT said:

IIRC Crichton Avenue bridge replaced the level crossing sometime in the 1920s with the development of the council housing estate at the country end of Burton Stone Lane. The current concrete footbridge to the old York City Football Ground, at what we always called Asylum Lane (from the nearby Bootham Hospital) was installed again IIRC in the late 1960s - there’s a photo feature on its installation in a contemporary Railway Modeller.

 

Never heard of the footbridge being called Glass Bridge - presumably that was the nickname for the original NER footbridge.

 

RichardT (also a former resident of Burton Stone Lane!)

I would guess so, either that or broken bottles. The estate development was what I thought too for the Chrichton Ave bridge, I just didn't know the date other than pre-war when the two Kingsways (West in Acomb & North in Bootham/Clifton) were built within the new estates to be part of a northern by-pass. For anyone not local it is why if you look at Kingsway North it has the wide median strip and the pub on the eastern end roundabout was built so big. 

 

Update - the new footbridge went in in 1962, photo of it on the York Press website with the skeleton of the old "glass bridge" visible. (Linked rather than embedded for copyright reasons).

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by john new
Found one of the YP photos I recalled plus name confirmation.

[RichardT]

Thanks John.  I’ve found the Railway Modeller photo too - Feb 1964 issue page 47, where it says that the bridge was erected “recently”:

 

RichardT

 

(the search function on the RM subscribers online archive is hopeless for pre-1980s issues! The scan quality for these is pretty poor so the OCR often doesn’t work. I had to resort to reading the scans of the annual indexes…)

[Harry Lund]

Thanks for the tip about the Crichton Avenue bridge.   I've had a look on Google Earth (3D is amazing).   It looks just the ticket for the scenic break, not least because it has two spans, one occupied by the Scarborough lines, and the other ......?   Any ideas?   Has anyone got photos handy of the bridge in the 1950s?  Giles

[Harry Lund]

From Google Earth - for modelling purposes the Scarborough lines will use the right span, the hull lines the left (so reversed).   But I'm not clear on what went under the LH span ..

 

Ah.  Just twigged.  Is that a stream/brook, plus weir......?

 

Giles

 

[john new]

33 minutes ago, Harry Lund said:

From Google Earth - for modelling purposes the Scarborough lines will use the right span, the hull lines the left (so reversed).   But I'm not clear on what went under the LH span ..

 

Ah.  Just twigged.  Is that a stream/brook, plus weir......?

 

Giles

 

As I lived in the area and didn't know the answer I have been browsing the 25" maps on Nat Library Scotland site. That gap is odd. There seems to be nothing there before it was built or under it after building. Mapping dates suggest the estate was built in the late 20s or early 30s, along with the diversion of Burton Stone Lane from a right angle bend and then meeting Wigginton Rd over the level crossing  (That residual length is now renamed to Field View) instead extending straight ahead to join the new build Chrichton Ave. The bridge isn't shown on the 1931 edition but is by the 1937 revision.  Was quadrupling to give a passing loop, or even as a pure speculation a GC systyle island platform new station for the new estate and as a replacement for Rowntrees Halt perhaps ever on the cards pre-war. That idea does give a nice York what if to model though.

 

Also of interest to me is that sometime after the 1940 map the road I lived in changed names for some reason - when I bought the house in 1980  the name had morphed from Hillsborough Street to Hillsborough Terrace.

 

Amazing what you can learn from a railway modelling forum thread about the real world!

[john new]

1 hour ago, Harry Lund said:

From Google Earth - for modelling purposes the Scarborough lines will use the right span, the hull lines the left (so reversed).   But I'm not clear on what went under the LH span ..

 

Ah.  Just twigged.  Is that a stream/brook, plus weir......?

 

Giles

 

Whatever it is, and I am guessing at just a boundary fence, this shot of mine showing the north side with City of Wells, probably from the early 1980s, shows that the trees on the north side are recent growth and would not have been there in the 1950s.

 

[Harry Lund]

Thanks so much John.   My instinct is that you are right that the bridge was doubled in anticipation of a future development.   And here we have it - a revised location for Bootham Junction!!    Giles

[Harry Lund]

I've quite a few photos of rebuilt MNs around York in the rail tour era; this is the first I've seen of an unrebuilt Bullied pacific.   Handy, as I have one or more of each type (MN, WC/BoB, Unrebuilt, Rebuilt) from the days, 20 years ago, when I was thinking about modelling the Southern Region.   My neighbour, in his 80s and with no obvious interest in railways, came to inspect the party wall between our properties a couple of years ago, and there happened to be a rebuilt MN, sound fitted, running around my previous layout.   As he walked through the door, and before he knew what was inside, he said 'that is the unforgettable sound of a MN'! 

[iands]

28 minutes ago, Harry Lund said:

My instinct is that you are right that the bridge was doubled in anticipation of a future development..........

It is possible, at the time the bridge was being designed, that someone may have suggested that if they included a 'second' span, it could serve (at a later date perhaps) as a route to divert Wigginton Road and close Bootham Crossing - in today's terminology, 'passive provision'? Again, just another thought. But as Giles says, a revised location for Bootham Junction.  One of those convenient 'happy accidents' that come along once in a while.

[john new]

54 minutes ago, Harry Lund said:

I've quite a few photos of rebuilt MNs around York in the rail tour era; this is the first I've seen of an unrebuilt Bullied pacific.   Handy, as I have one or more of each type (MN, WC/BoB, Unrebuilt, Rebuilt) from the days, 20 years ago, when I was thinking about modelling the Southern Region.   My neighbour, in his 80s and with no obvious interest in railways, came to inspect the party wall between our properties a couple of years ago, and there happened to be a rebuilt MN, sound fitted, running around my previous layout.   As he walked through the door, and before he knew what was inside, he said 'that is the unforgettable sound of a MN'! 

Yes, City of Wells was a regular Scarborough Spa Express pool engine for quite a while.

[john new]

2 hours ago, iands said:

It is possible, at the time the bridge was being designed, that someone may have suggested that if they included a 'second' span, it could serve (at a later date perhaps) as a route to divert Wigginton Road and close Bootham Crossing - in today's terminology, 'passive provision'? Again, just another thought. But as Giles says, a revised location for Bootham Junction.  One of those convenient 'happy accidents' that come along once in a while.

I don't think it would be that for one vital reason - there would still need to be a level crossing for Wigginton Rd, a diversion of that to allow closure of the crossing would have been very easy if either (1) the Kingsways linking by-pass had ever been built or any one of the north facing roads in the new build estate had extended in a north east facing arc out to the (then) City boundary although it might have had to extend a little bit into the N Riding to meet with Wigginton Rd again north of the crossing. No idea though where the sewers and other utilities feeding that estate run.

[Curlew]

Possibly the bridge was built and paid for by the local authority. Like anything paid for by someone else, the railway would likely have demanded something far more generous than if they had paid for it themselves, 'just in case' it was needed in the future. There are examples of this elsewhere - either where the local authority or another railway company footed the bill.

[coronach]

On 09/01/2023 at 09:56, iands said:

Les Gowland (Lineman) and John Cornforth (Assistant) were the guys during my time with them (about 16 weeks). Absolutely loved it. Yes, we used the buses every day - except the very rare occasion when the Supervisor had use of the van to drop off some equipment/stores. The buses could on occasion be an absolute bu**er though. I recall one day we had just got to Strensall SB to carry out a bit of regular maintenance to be greeted with a message to attend an urgent fault at Haxby. No direct bus service between the two places, so it was all the way back into York and then catch another bus to Haxby. Yes, it was a long walk to Kirkham Abbey from the bus stop on the A64, down hill in the morning, but up hill in the afternoon! Unless of course it was the maintenance job for that week to walk from Kirkham Abbey to Malton testing track circuits. As I say, I absolutely loved my time there. 

We visited Howsham gates one day to carry out some maintenance, renew a signal wire and have a cup of tea with the crossing keeper in his cottage.  A local farmer turned up at the cottage with a cardboard box containing a runt piglet, suggesting that the dog (a large Alsatian) might like to play with it !!!!  I remember we also spent a while playing golf in the field behind the cottage.  What a different life it was then - sunny days etc.  I remember Jim Gibb was the trainee technician in the team at the time but I forget the name of the supervisor - John Maw had just replaced Wes Dodds as the Area Signal Engineer I think.

[iands]

3 hours ago, coronach said:

We visited Howsham gates one day to carry out some maintenance, renew a signal wire and have a cup of tea with the crossing keeper in his cottage.  A local farmer turned up at the cottage with a cardboard box containing a runt piglet, suggesting that the dog (a large Alsatian) might like to play with it !!!!  I remember we also spent a while playing golf in the field behind the cottage.  What a different life it was then - sunny days etc.  I remember Jim Gibb was the trainee technician in the team at the time but I forget the name of the supervisor - John Maw had just replaced Wes Dodds as the Area Signal Engineer I think.

Howsham - another enjoyable spot in the middle of nowhere. I don't remember Jim Gibb, obviously he came after me. Wes Dodds of course and John Maw I remember very well. The supervisor at my time was George Duffield (George was also the supervisor for the York-Harrogate line). When he retired Bill Fox took over the supervisor role.