Applicability Dates for Models

[Roy Langridge]

I couldn't decide where this belongs. If it is in the wrong place, apologies...

 

The discussion in a Heljan thread regarding when the real 33008 looked like the model (e.g. livery / headlight) had me thinking again about a need that I once considered long ago.

 

How often do we get asked (or in my case have asked) "what period is that model good for?". Surely we need one of two things:

• Manufacturers to actually declare the range that the prototype wore the livery for, or
• A website set up where those with the knowledge can share their wisdom - I am thinking a searchable database type of thing.

 

For those in the know, would the latter be hard to achieve?

 

Cheers,

Roy

Edited September 10, 2020 by Roy Langridge

[fezza]

Years ago Mainline included a leaflet that contained a short potted history of the locomotive, indicating when the loco operated and in what livery. Surely this ought to be a standard feature? 

 

The Era and Epoch numbers are often far too broad and sometimes inaccurate. 

[Roy Langridge]

25 minutes ago, fezza said:

 

The Era and Epoch numbers are often far too broad and sometimes inaccurate. 

 

Yep - useless for many. So often I see people here (sometime even me) can help narrow down the period, but I wish it was just more easily found.

Roy

[The Johnster]

The manufacturers do the best research they can to produce models that are accurate for that specific timeframe, and you are right; it wouldn’t hurt to state somewhere (box, catalogue) what that is!  Era numbers are intended as an overall general guide rather than accurate ‘hard’ information; era 6, to pick one at random because I just saw a number 6 bus, will enable a modeller without specific knowledge to build a layout of items more or less contemporaneous, but it’s a broad brush at best. 
 

A searchable database would be next to impossible to set up for more than a very small selection of locos, even for a single class.  For 33s, you'd need to know the slim jims, easy enough but it gets harder very quickly; then the dates small or full yellow ends were applied, dates all the different liveries were applied to all the locos, then those fitted with push-pull gear for the Weymouths, then it’s removal, then the date of change to tops numbers, the headlights and anything else you can think of.  That’s 8 variables and I’m by no means knowledgeable about 33s, 8 to the power of 8 combinations, most of which never existed times the number of locos in the class; I’m nor going to bother to work it out; it’ll be a brain fryingly big number. 
 

My best advice is to work from dated and verified photos if you can, but failing that to acquire any books about 33s, and failing that your best guess, and a willingness to correct the model should information come to light.

 

My own layout is set in the 1948-58 timeframe in South Wales; all locos are examples allox Tondu shed in that period.  I have used online information from RailUK database.  In the case of some of my locos I have been able to reference photographs, for others supplied brand new or transfers of fairly new ones to the shed I can be fairly certain that the current livery for the allocation date would ne applied at Swindon, but beyond that it’s best guess and lump it.  

As for coaches and other stock, forget it unless I know it was built post about 1942.  Not complaining, I chose the period because of the biodiversity of liveries it offers, but a comprehensive database would be a wonderful thing.  Winning the lottery is more likely! 

[JohnR]

I presume that they do some research, eg use a photo of the loco in the condition they are producing it, so would it hurt to say "The loco ran in this livery between May 1958 and September 1964" or whatever?

[Nearholmer]

Yes, now that much r-t-r has progressed from being “a class xyz loco” to being “loco xxxxx on Thursday 27th July 1967 at 1453hrs” it would certainly help if they gave the detail - some liveries, diesels especially, were one minute wonders.

 

And that might be a clue: if they made applicability dates clear, some would be of such short duration as to limit sales!

[spamcan61]

21 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I presume that they do some research, eg use a photo of the loco in the condition they are producing it, so would it hurt to say "The loco ran in this livery between May 1958 and September 1964" or whatever?

Depends how much trust you put in the dates on the photos ...

[Steamport Southport]

I find this website works well

 

https://www.google.co.uk/

[Steamport Southport]

" BR 33008" into Google

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br+33008&ei=k3JaX-32DuGNlwTSiq7ACw&start=0&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwitjJ32nd_rAhXhxoUKHVKFC7g4ChDy0wN6BAgMEC8&biw=1366&bih=657

 

Pages and pages of information on 33008 and hundreds of photographs.

 

Whilst I understand where the OP is coming from you are getting into territory which is already pretty well served by websites such as BR Database and Rail UK. As well as many dedicated websites to individual railways and types of locomotive.

 

http://brdatabase.info/

 

https://railuk.info/

 

Now think how long it's taken for them to get where they are now. Years. Anyone got a few decades of their life to set up a database? I certainly haven't. Good luck if you do.

 

 

Jason

[fezza]

I think the point here is that if you and I can use Google and after less than an hour have figured out the dates of a particular livery, surely a junior researcher working for the manufacturer could do this too? Models take 100s of hours to research and design - surely spending a few minutes doing this basic work would help with the marketing of the product? 

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, fezza said:

I think the point here is that if you and I can use Google and after less than an hour have figured out the dates of a particular livery, surely a junior researcher working for the manufacturer could do this too? Models take 100s of hours to research and design - surely spending a few minutes doing this basic work would help with the marketing of the product? 

 

They already do. It's normally on the box or in the leaflet that you get with it.

 

The Hornby Terrier I got the other week had two paragraphs on general history and two on the individual locomotive on the box.

 

The basic details are on the website.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/locomotives/locomotives-by-class/a1x-terrier/br-terrier-0-6-0t-32635-brighton-works-era-5.html

 

The first of the Terriers to have ‘2000’ added to its number under the Southern Railway’s 1931 Scheme, 2635 Morden replaced Terrier No. 380S as the Brighton Works shunter in August 1946, gaining the new service stock number 377S and Stroudley’s ‘Improved Engine Green’. The locomotive served as Brighton Works’ showpiece from June 1947 and was absorbed into British Railways’ stock from January 1948, however fears that the livery would be reduced to BR Black were unfounded, as DS377 was repainted in a slightly greener shade of yellow in September 1953. On 12 January 1959 the Terrier was transferred from Service Stock to the Motive Power Department at Brighton Works and was given the new number of 32635, which it carried until withdrawal on 30 March 1963.

 

 

 

Jason

[Roy Langridge]

I think the point is being missed, yes you can use google, and so can I and so can many other people. What I was suggesting was a way in which that information could be shared such that not everybody had to do the same research.

 

Yes, I would love the manufacturers to state the timeframe for their model - but that doesn't seem likely.

 

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A searchable database would be next to impossible to set up for more than a very small selection of locos, even for a single class.  For 33s, you'd need to know the slim jims, easy enough but it gets harder very quickly; then the dates small or full yellow ends were applied, dates all the different liveries were applied to all the locos, then those fitted with push-pull gear for the Weymouths, then it’s removal, then the date of change to tops numbers, the headlights and anything else you can think of.  That’s 8 variables and I’m by no means knowledgeable about 33s, 8 to the power of 8 combinations, most of which never existed times the number of locos in the class; I’m nor going to bother to work it out; it’ll be a brain fryingly big number. 

 

I think you are coming at it from the opposite direction from me. I don't care about most of the Slim Jim / livery combination as Heljan have probably only produced about 10 models*. It is those ten that need to be reflected, not the umpteen hundred other combinations that have not been made rtr.

 

As models are announced / released the database could be completed - over time historical data could be added for models that have already been produced. A big task? Certainly, Impossible? Certainly not.

 

Roy

 

* yes, I know lima did a 33 as well.

[Roy Langridge]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

They already do. It's normally on the box or in the leaflet that you get with it.

 

The Hornby Terrier I got the other week had two paragraphs on general history and two on the individual locomotive on the box.

 

The basic details are on the website.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/locomotives/locomotives-by-class/a1x-terrier/br-terrier-0-6-0t-32635-brighton-works-era-5.html

 

The first of the Terriers to have ‘2000’ added to its number under the Southern Railway’s 1931 Scheme, 2635 Morden replaced Terrier No. 380S as the Brighton Works shunter in August 1946, gaining the new service stock number 377S and Stroudley’s ‘Improved Engine Green’. The locomotive served as Brighton Works’ showpiece from June 1947 and was absorbed into British Railways’ stock from January 1948, however fears that the livery would be reduced to BR Black were unfounded, as DS377 was repainted in a slightly greener shade of yellow in September 1953. On 12 January 1959 the Terrier was transferred from Service Stock to the Motive Power Department at Brighton Works and was given the new number of 32635, which it carried until withdrawal on 30 March 1963.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Some do, most don't. I would not say it is "normal" by any means.

Roy

[Dungrange]

I suspect that part of the reason this information isn't provided by the manufacturers is simply because if they don't provide the information, then they can't be criticised for providing inaccurate information.  As has already been noted, sometimes the stated Era isn't even correct.  If a manufacturer can't get an Era accurate, then what hope is there of them providing accurate start and end dates for the modelled condition?

 

I suspect that many models are produced based on a lot of photographs taken around, say, May 1971 and therefore the model may be an accurate representation of the locomotive at that time.  However, if the manufacturer advertises the locomotive as being in 1971 condition, would that put those who model say 1969 or 1974 off purchasing the model?

 

It seems easy to say that the locomotive was, say, green between 1965 and 1974 but if the manufacturer was to provide these dates, then the moaning nitpickers on here would point out that the locomotive didn't gain warning panels until 1967 or an aerial was removed in 1973.  The manufacturers have probably realised that it's easier just to state that it is suitable for Era 6 and leave it up to potential purchasers to decide whether it meets their period criteria (given that some people model care much more about such details that others).  Those who really care can spend an hour on Google: those who don't can just decide whether they like it and exercise Rule 1.

[fezza]

I think most people just want to know when particular liveries were introduced on particular sub classes and when they became extinct. For example, I know Midland Mainline livery came in on 170s in 1998, but when did it become extinct? (I think the full livery was completely  debranded in 2005?) 

[Dungrange]

10 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

As models are announced / released the database could be completed - over time historical data could be added for models that have already been produced. A big task? Certainly, Impossible? Certainly not.

 

Who is going to compile this data?  Who is going to pay for their time and how are they going to be paid?  Who is going to pay for the costs of running the server that the data is stored on and who is going to pay for the website that runs the search criteria that access the database?

 

I agree that it's not an impossible task, but how much are you willing to pay to access the information?  Are you going to take out an annual subscription to this information site or would you prefer to pay a fee for each search on an ad hoc basis?  If you know that you can get the information for the locomotive that you are interested in for a fee of £5 would you pay that or just use Google?  If the majority of people would just use Google, then you have the answer as to why this database doesn't exist.  Ultimately, it's the sort of information that someone might compile as a labour of love, but it will be bounded by that person's interests.

[Steamport Southport]

14 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

I think the point is being missed, yes you can use google, and so can I and so can many other people. What I was suggesting was a way in which that information could be shared such that not everybody had to do the same research.

 

Yes, I would love the manufacturers to state the timeframe for their model - but that doesn't seem likely.

 

 

But there is already hundreds of websites already providing that information. Using Google just helps you find it.

 

For example Class 47s.

 

Everything you need to know about them is here. it's totally pointless anyone else doing research from scratch. It's done.

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/

 

Class 33s? Like wise.

 

http://www.class33crompton.co.uk/CromptonIntro.htm

 

http://www.class33crompton.co.uk/Crompton33008.htm

 

People learning to use the vast amounts of resources already available online would be a better idea IMHO. 

 

 

 

Jason

[Dungrange]

4 minutes ago, fezza said:

I think most people just want to know when particular liveries were introduced on particular sub classes and when they became extinct. For example, I know Midland Mainline livery came in on 170s in 1998, but when did it become extinct? (I think the full livery was completely  debranded in 2005?) 

 

But surely the point is that if you don't know that information, why do you think a manufacturer will know?  They will most likely produce a model based on photographs that were taken in perhaps 2002 or 2003 and the model is therefore representative of the prototype around that time.  It doesn't really matter to them whether the unit they have modelled still carried that livery in 2004 or 2005.  Those who care will either know or be willing to do the research, but I suspect many sales are made to less specific buyers who don't care.  I don't think it would be cost effective for a manufacturer to undertake additional research just to answer these sorts of questions.

[Roy Langridge]

15 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But there is already hundreds of websites already providing that information. Using Google just helps you find it.

 

For example Class 47s.

 

Everything you need to know about them is here. it's totally pointless anyone else doing research from scratch. It's done.

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/

 

Class 33s? Like wise.

 

http://www.class33crompton.co.uk/CromptonIntro.htm

 

http://www.class33crompton.co.uk/Crompton33008.htm

 

People learning to use the vast amounts of resources already available online would be a better idea IMHO. 

 

 

 

Jason

But the information is not on those sites, some but not all. Take a look at this post by ADB968006 on 33008:

 

He has identified many subtle changes that are not listed on the class33crompton site. Likewise the BR Loco database does not have the level of changes that let you determine timeframes specifically. Yes, you may find out a loco went BR blue, but not when it gained an extra set of numbers and the TOPS  panel moved etc. 

I know how to do research, I don’t need to learn, but I don’t always have the time to do it as fully as I would like for every loco, so why not share?
 

Fair enough, you don’t see the point, but I think you not are looking at the level of detail that some of us do.

 

Roy

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Roy Langridge

[stovepipe]

As the person asking about 33008 liveries on the Heljan thread, I should declare I have collected a fair amount of details for a few favourite diesel classes, in the transition period mainly, and I can tell you the answers are certainly not all on Google, or on the dedicated sites.

 

I suppose I could share my info but just getting the information out there in a readable format is no small undertaking, and its just an always incomplete side project for me, to do a bit on now and again when I feel like it.

 

But those more dedicated seem to be now publishing this data - take the recent class 29 & 17 books by Anthony Sayer for example and possibly the upcoming one on 33s by S Lilley. I can see this trend continuing; there's definitely a market for it.

 

 

 

[fezza]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

 

But surely the point is that if you don't know that information, why do you think a manufacturer will know?  They will most likely produce a model based on photographs that were taken in perhaps 2002 or 2003 and the model is therefore representative of the prototype around that time.  

 

I take your point but manufacturers do a huge amount of research to get the details just right precisely because they fear us on rmweb and the specialist press jumping all over mistakes. Why not share a little of  this research? Saying a Midland Mainline 170 is c1998-2003 is better than just saying 'privatisation era'.

 

Many enthusiasts are not pedants but want to get things broadly right  - a bit more guidance wouldn't really hurt. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by fezza
clarity

[Dungrange]

I take your point, but just because a manufacturer is using photographs of a unit taken in 2003 doesn't mean that the prototype didn't carry that same livery in 2004 or indeed 2005.  The problem is that trying to determine the later date possibly isn't part of their research, which is focused on trying to get the details right for the period that they are representing.  If they just say c1998 to 2003, they may lose sales if in fact the unit or one of its classmates carried the livery for longer.

 

The follow on point is of course when making a model of unit 170 xxx, do you want the information for that specific unit (ie unit 170 xxx was repainted on 24 July 2004) or do you want it for the class as a whole (because unit 170 yyy might not have been repainted or de-branded until 30 November 2005).  This is heading into the territory where a book on Midland Mainline class 170 units may be more appropriate.

 

I agree that a bit more information would be useful, but I suspect whatever was provided would still not be enough.

[PatB]

Based on the number of exhibition layouts I've seen with a 66 towing a string of 1930s PO Wagons around*, presided over by exhibitors serious enough about modelling to be club members, I suspect that a majority of buye3rs don't actually care that much about a year or two here and there. Those that do probably already know how to find out. 

 

*Or Tornado pulling one of everything from the Farish catalogue. Or a Hornby Pacer running through a Maunsell era SR station. Or any of a hundred other anachronisms far more basic and obvious than eg an exhaust outlet in the wrong place or a blue diesel with a TOPS number in 1970.

[JZ]

About 15 months ago, I switched from a lifetime of UK modelling to American Narrow Gauge H0n3. The historical information that comes with the kits, is much more detailed than you get with any UK outline kit. When it comes to ready to run, particularly from Blackstone Models, you get a booklet with the history of a particular class of loco and even with other rolling stock, you get a double sided sheet with fairly comprehensive details on it.

 

[Chris M]

Isn't finding out as much as you can about a loco before you buy it part of the fun? I don't see that it is up to manufacturers or other organisations to provide such information on a plate. They will have built a model of the loco based on a photo (which is a snapshot of a moment in time) and won't necessarily have delved into the complete history for each loco number they produce. I can see that putting the start and finish dates for a loco in a certain condition might lead to slightly reduced sales and almost certainly criticism that the information isn't correct. Just think of the discussions around chromatic blue for instance. Also whilst it may be easy to say when a livery was introduced it is often hard to known how long it lingered before all examples were gone. Also some of the information on the sites mentioned above almost certainly is 100% correct for every loco. With such a lot of data there will inevitably be errors. I have found there is a lot of very useful information regarding some classes on this forum together with discussion as to it's accuracy.

 

I like all my models to be appropriate for the location and time I model so I do a bit of googling before buying anything. Sometimes I will buy something that isn't quite right but at least I know its not quite right. For instance for my 1968 stock I have a blue Warship with one central BR "undecided arrow" on the side. This is completely wrong as all the blue ones had the BR emblem at each end in 1968; the central emblem was introduced later. I could get a new body or do a repaint but I have decided to leave it as it is. I allow this but I won't allow my maroon warships out when I am running 1963 as they didn't appear until late 1965. Clearly what is acceptable or not is down to each individual.