Seeking help with a defective locomotive and shoddy seller behaviour

[Cokebreeze]

Hi

I am in need of some technical and perhaps a little moral support after being confronted with a thorny ebay problem. I model in American HO scale, North Eastern roads, and have made several purchases recently from a well known seller who predominantly sells British OO. I'm guessing the seller has purchased an estate which included several model diesel locomotives, perfect additions to my roster. Now given the prevailing dearth of suitable models I will over indulge when the occasion arises and blow a big hole in the budget. I bought some Atlas, Bowser, and Proto 2000 diesels, and anyone with a long standing interest in American HO will know that Proto 2000 diesels are prone to split axle muffs. In my experience it was the early GP7s that were blighted but these recent purchases have taught me that EMD GP30s and Alco FAs and FBs are vulnerable.   Now to be fair to the seller he did list the GP30s as non runners. I guessed what part of the problem was and I was right, split axle muffs compounded by grease going solid over years of stagnation. These models have sat on someone's shelf for decades.  the FAs were described as having been tested and running. I have absolutely no quibble with the GP30s, but I am disappointed with the FAs and FBs not fully disclosed as defective.

 

 To cut a long story short, they all had split axle muffs but the seller has assured me they passed his test running.  He has also stated that he will not remove the keeper plate and inspect the axle muffs, which I struggle to comprehend, given it takes seconds to do.  

 

I don't want to return the models, because they are so very scarce and neither do I trust the seller. It has been a long drawn out correspondence but he refuses to supply replacement parts or offer to compensate for the defective parts. You would scarcely believe the excuses, the personal jibes, his attempts to portray himself as the victim, and all  manner of ruses designed to avoid responsibility for his actions. 

 

He suggested he would knock off a bit of the postage by small amounts from future purchases equivalent to the roughly £20 value of 12 replacement axle muffs. Ahearn Part 60024. Now I think that is strictly against ebay policy anyway, linking due compensation to future sales, apart from being fraught with all manner of "what ifs"

 

So in the first instance does anyone know if return of the faulty models is the only realistic recourse, or can I get ebay to arbitrate?   I have looked at asking ebay to intervene but nothing quite seems to match my situation on their drop down menus in the resolution centre.

 

Secondly, the seller still lists Proto 2000 models today. I am deeply suspicious that they will have the same fault. You buy it, you find the fault, you send it back, he lists it again, and again until he finds a buyer who doesn't reject it. In effect, you and I, the buyers are his quality control. It is just too easy to peddle defective models. 

 

I suspect I am somewhat shafted here, but I would like to put right what is clearly wrong (in my mind anyway).

 

I am not revealing the seller's identity now in case it is contrary to RM web guidelines but I'm happy to do so in the broader interest if that is admissible ?   

 

If you have bought Proto 2000 diesels from a UK seller on ebay within the last few months, you would be well advised to check those axle muffs.

Phil

[Hal Nail]

You can actually speak to people at ebay.

 

I'd keep it fairly brief:

 

Ie seller has acknowledged a problem but I'm not getting satisfactory resolution. Is a partial refund allowable given these are repairable and if so would Ebay arbitrate or is a return for full refund the only recourse?

[J. S. Bach]

1 hour ago, Cokebreeze said:

Hi

 ...snip...American HO will know that Proto 2000 diesels are prone to split axle muffs.  ...snip...

Phil

Athearn gears are a direct drop-in, well slide-on replacement if you just get the gear. I have a Proto 2000 EMD GP20 that had that problem on one axle, a friend just took all eight (I have two GP20s) axles and swapped them out for the Athearn ones.

Edit: After reading your whole post, I see that you are aware of the Athearn part. BTW my 20 ran with the split gear, just somewhat jerky.

Edited September 28, 2020 by J. S. Bach

[kevinlms]

On 29/09/2020 at 09:09, J. S. Bach said:

Athearn gears are a direct drop-in, well slide-on replacement if you just get the gear. I have a Proto 2000 EMD GP20 that had that problem on one axle, a friend just took all eight (I have two GP20s) axles and swapped them out for the Athearn ones.

Edit: After reading your whole post, I see that you are aware of the Athearn part. BTW my 20 ran with the split gear, just somewhat jerky.

Given that the OP wants to keep the models, due to scarcity and that the replacement parts are available, I would be tempted to just buy the replacements and move on. Leave bad feedback, stating the reason and continue with life. It's annoying and shouldn't happen, but...

[Gilbert]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Given that the OP wants to keep the models, due to scarcity and that the replacement parts are available, I would be tempted to just buy the replacements and move on. Leave bad feedback, stating the reason and continue with life. It's annoying and shouldn't happen, but...

Sad but I agree....

[hayfield]

25 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Given that the OP wants to keep the models, due to scarcity and that the replacement parts are available, I would be tempted to just buy the replacements and move on. Leave bad feedback, stating the reason and continue with life. It's annoying and shouldn't happen, but...

 

Sound advice, if its a rare item and the cost of repair is minimal its worth keeping it.

 

Just leave accurate feedback, as a buyer I never check a sellers feedback and every now and then I buy something not quite as described or a fault not included in the description. It is quite possible that the seller tested the loco and failed to spot the issue.

[Allegheny1600]

Sounds like a typical ebay charlatan to me! I do find that ebay.co.uk has more than it's fair share of such.

Report them to ebay, they may not do much but the more strikes against them, the better the chance ebay may respond.

I wouldn't return the items though - what's the betting they get "lost" in the post?

Just draw a line under it after leaving negative feedback and put them on your blocked list.

Cheers,

John.

[rockershovel]

This sounds like a fairly typical eBay issue. Most of the problems on eBay are “old wine in new bottles” - low-level scams, misleading by omission etc which were common in auction halls, and probably still are (I haven’t been to a physical auction in years, eBay draws off such a high proportion of the better items these days). 

 

I used to buy things at auction for two reasons - (1) that they were things I couldn’t otherwise obtain (2) they were significantly cheaper than I could buy allowing time for a proper inspection, and the saving reflected the risk of buying without proper inspection. 

 

 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Sounds like a typical ebay charlatan to me! I do find that ebay.co.uk has more than it's fair share of such.

Report them to ebay, they may not do much but the more strikes against them, the better the chance ebay may respond.

I wouldn't return the items though - what's the betting they get "lost" in the post?

Just draw a line under it after leaving negative feedback and put them on your blocked list.

Cheers,

John.

 

46 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

This sounds like a fairly typical eBay issue. Most of the problems on eBay are “old wine in new bottles” - low-level scams, misleading by omission etc which were common in auction halls, and probably still are (I haven’t been to a physical auction in years, eBay draws off such a high proportion of the better items these days). 

 

I used to buy things at auction for two reasons - (1) that they were things I couldn’t otherwise obtain (2) they were significantly cheaper than I could buy allowing time for a proper inspection, and the saving reflected the risk of buying without proper inspection. 

 

 

 

 

Most sellers on eBay are very decent and honest folk, including many traders. eBay mirrors the society we live in. Don't forget there also a few of dodgy buyers on eBay.

 

Unlike a traditional auction (who charge massive fees in comparison)  and its sold as seen and in most cases no ability to test, its tough luck if you buy a dud. With eBay you have its buyer protection, which sellers moan that its weighted towards the buyer. If its not as described a full refund is available including all postage costs

 

In this case its a rare model which requires a cheap repair, if the buyer returns it he may not get another for some time and or cost more, the seller has offered some form of recompense which has not been acceptable to the buyer. If the seller is unaware of these issues to US models he is not used to selling then he is hardly going to look for them.

 

I think most decent sellers would do something a bit different, perhaps this seller has been bitten by dishonest buyers in the past which has coloured the way he responds.

 

As said before the benefit of keeping the loco outweighs the cost of the replacement parts. Otherwise return the item and get a full refund

Edited October 3, 2020 by hayfield

[rockershovel]

Well, quite so. I tend to lose interest when phrases like “.. I cannot comprehend..” start to appear. 

 

It sounds as though the OP should have known, and allowed for the possibility that the axle muffs might well require attention. He has obtained items he admits are difficult to find, might have over-paid a bit in the process (a common problem in an auction, where there might well be at least one other bidder not so well informed, or less concerned about the possible problems... auctions are rarely a place to look for bargains, in my experience. 

[Wheatley]

On 28/09/2020 at 22:45, Cokebreeze said:

 

 To cut a long story short, they all had split axle muffs but the seller has assured me they passed his test running.  He has also stated that he will not remove the keeper plate and inspect the axle muffs, which I struggle to comprehend, given it takes seconds to do.  

Seller puts the loco on the track, enough torque gets to enough wheels despite the split muffs to make it go, ergo it's not a non-runner. It might not be what you or I or possibly even the seller would think of as a satisfactory runner, but it's not a non- runner. Good luck trying to get Ebay to recognise that nuance. 

 

I think you might have to just write this down to experience and stock up on spares. Or break one down as a donor for the others, I have rather more Mainline Jubillee bodies than I do serviceable chassis at the moment for exactly the same reason. My advantage is that steam locos with split muffs lock up and don't go at all so they are far easier to spot - it works fine or not at all.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Seller puts the loco on the track, enough torque gets to enough wheels despite the split muffs to make it go, ergo it's not a non-runner. It might not be what you or I or possibly even the seller would think of as a satisfactory runner, but it's not a non- runner. Good luck trying to get Ebay to recognise that nuance. 

 

I think you might have to just write this down to experience and stock up on spares. Or break one down as a donor for the others, I have rather more Mainline Jubillee bodies than I do serviceable chassis at the moment for exactly the same reason. My advantage is that steam locos with split muffs lock up and don't go at all so they are far easier to spot - it works fine or not at all.

 

 

How many times have quite a lot of us bought items stated as non runners, only to fine the loco either spurts into life or requires minimum attention to getting it running. Do we offer the seller extra !!

 

But I do agree if its not running well then say so. I have very little idea about modern RTR as my interests lie in kits, as for American locos and axle muffs.

What I do know is what kits have issues to look out for. Also know what problems are easy to fix

 

Here we have a knowledgeable buyer who knew what to look for and found an issue common to that maker, and your suggestion about spares is a very good one

 

 

[polybear]

Cokebreeze - you have a PM....

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Seller puts the loco on the track, enough torque gets to enough wheels despite the split muffs to make it go, ergo it's not a non-runner. It might not be what you or I or possibly even the seller would think of as a satisfactory runner, but it's not a non- runner. Good luck trying to get Ebay to recognise that nuance. 

 

I think you might have to just write this down to experience and stock up on spares. Or break one down as a donor for the others, I have rather more Mainline Jubillee bodies than I do serviceable chassis at the moment for exactly the same reason. My advantage is that steam locos with split muffs lock up and don't go at all so they are far easier to spot - it works fine or not at all.

 

A particular problem with AC current, 3-rail locos is that the seller puts the loco in a cradle, or simply lays it on its side, touches one lead to the wheel and one to the pick-up. If the wheels turn, it’s a runner - no attempt is made to check the operation of the reverser unit. 

[J. S. Bach]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

How many times have quite a lot of us bought items stated as non runners, only to fine the loco either spurts into life or requires minimum attention to getting it running. ...snip...

I bought this at a train show for $5.00 as having no motor, a non-runner:

 

 

Hmmm, looks like a motor to me:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cokebreeze]

Thank you all for your responses I have an update that I would like to share.    

There is a fairly reliable procedure for the return of ebay purchases for a full refund. This was the only option the seller would accept. Any other resolution, a partial refund, for example is discretionary and ebay will not get involved. I always wanted to keep these models, knowing I could replace the faulty axles with Athearn parts.  What irked me was the volume of purchases that I had previously made without cause for complaint, the seller would only accept return of the models as a solution and his assertion that he had test run them and they ran OK. Even when I asked him to check for split axles before shipping this consignment he later admitted that he just posted them without checking in the way I asked. So he shipped them out regardless.

The seller today lists just one Proto 2000 diesel in amongst a tranche of British outline so its only now limited to one potentially disappointed buyer (unless he has more to list).  I have a very clear understanding of what to expect from that seller. 

 

The split axle problem is progressive. It starts one side , maybe the other, and then completely across. The first symptom is loose wheels then it starts to clunk and bang when a split opens up between one of the 12 teeth on the gear. 

 

You can test run a model flat out, up and down on a test track and it will run.  Slow it down to crawl and you will see a judder and eventually the motor will stall because the gear jams. A simple test is to but you thumb on one wheel and your other thumb on it's counterpart and if you can provoke any movement, the axles have split.  How it runs depends on how far the split has progressed and how many axles are affected. 

 

What I learned from this, is that the defect is far more widespread than I first thought. I knew it affected the early Proto 2000 Geeps but I have now found it in much later Proto 2000 Alcos and Geeps and more recently in Athearn diesels. I checked some of my  Athearn diesels and found split axles in an SW7, an SW1500, and a fairly recent Alco RS3.  They are all probably well in excess of 10 years old. 

 

I even found split axles in a pack of replacement Athearn wheelsets - part number ATH 40029 and they are no more than about 2 years old. The pack of replacement gears (part number ATH 60024) is out of stock everywhere, and Athearn are quoting November on their web site.  Right now, the only source of replacements is to cannibalise another model for parts, which I have done.

 

I  turned brass collars from K&S 3/16 OD tube on my lathe to slip over the split axles but there is a high reject rate and it is time consuming and unpredictable.  It is only a partially effective solution. 

 

Over the weekend I have been working on a solution by simply melting the plastic around the split with a pencil thin soldering iron. To my surprise and delight, it is showing a lot of promise. The repaired axles work on the test track. It will be interesting to see if it holds up in the longer term. To be honest, I wasn't expecting it to work, but there you go....

 

I have plenty of duff muffs to practice on.

Phil

[hayfield]

It sounds more like a serious design fault from the manufacturer and perhaps one you should be discussing with them.

 

Not that I am taking sides with the seller, as you have said if tried at near full speed the loco works. It may well be the seller is totally unaware of the issue with this manufacturer and after finding the loco working wrongly thinking you are trying it on. Plus you now have double checked your own stock and found the same faults and found the same fault with a new unused spares pack.

 

To me its the manufacturer who seems to have a quality control issue, and should at least have a better quality replacement part available, if not free certainly at discounted prices.

 

There is also a lesson to us selling equipment we are not fully up to speed on, listen fully to the customer before jumping to conclusions. And perhaps a better description of the test used

 

I wish you luck in finding a solution to this commonly known issue  

[Darius43]

It strikes me on reading this thread (apart from learning a new meaning for a word) that the seller here has been fairly reasonable.

 

- They tested the loco and it ran.  Granted the test may not have been as sophisticated as you would like.

- You were aware of the axle “muff” issues with these models before you made the purchase.

- The seller refused to check the “muffs” for you prior to your making the purchase.  That is their prerogative.

- You made the purchase anyway so were aware that there was a risk of split “muffs”.  You effectively took a risk yourself in making the purchase.

- Unfortunately the “muffs” were split.  Your purchase risk didn’t pay off alas.

- You contacted the seller and, in accordance with eBay procedure, they offered a return for a full refund.

- You don’t want to do this as you want to keep the model as it is rare.

 

If you are keeping the model in spite of the offer of a return for a refund then it strikes me that you can’t really complain about its condition.

 

Darius

[Cokebreeze]

Yes split axle muffs are a design flaw, or perhaps material selection, or quality control and fundamentally the responsibility of the manufacturer. For a while LifeLike were offering free replacements but that ceased after a period and now Walthers own the brand. Right now, the parts are out of stock. It may be related to Covid 19 or just part of the natural ebb and flow of deliveries within this hobby.  It is a credit to Athearn that they sell spare parts intended for their own models which happen to be a direct fit for LifeLike and now Walthers models. I'm thankful that LifeLike essentially copied Athearn's design that goes back several decades when they launched their Proto 2000 range. That is a welcome example of parts standardisation.  

 

I perhaps should clarify I am not complaining about the condition of the model, and I am not complaining about the seller's behaviour. He is well aware of the defect, has been for some time, but gets around the issue by employing  a flawed test method.   I just think his actions are irresponsible and his approach to customer care is appalling.  But, and I agree, that is his prerogative. 

 

I have experience working in a manufacturing environment employing a series of rigorous test methods to ensure quality control. The tests are designed to expose defects and deficiencies (obviously to guarantee consistent quality and happy customers). Some of those tests are easily circumvented by a determined operator. You can keep testing the same specimen in different places until you find the value that equates to a pass.  I know it happens. It is a sure fire way to allow sub standard product to reach the market but it make's the Production figures look great. 

 

You can employ a test that you know (with luck) won't expose a known defect every time. If you get a complaint, well you can always truthfully tell the buyer it was tested.  That might be enough to convince some customers. 

 

The behaviour of this seller does irritate me. My own problems are my own, and I can sort them. But he will continue to sell defective models on the premise that they have been "tested" knowing that if a customer finds the defect he can just refund them, get his fees back, and do it all again.  Hey ho, its probably happening all around me and I don't see it. 

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 03/10/2020 at 14:25, hayfield said:

Don't forget there also a few of dodgy buyers on eBay.

 

Indeed!

 

I bought invested in a game from Kickstarter.

It came with spare things I didn't need / want / not part of the game.

I sold them (three empty boxes, a plushie, some stickers and a badge) for about the same cost as the whole game cost me - winner!

I was very careful and made sure the description and title had they were empty boxes, not the game.

Buyer bought and paid.

When buyer received, they messaged and opened a case straight away.

I refused the return as I sold as honestly as I could.

They said three bits were missing.  Then said just the badge was missing.

Eventually, their case was decided in my favour as they did not provide any details to ebay.

 

Similarly, the buyer before didn't think me writing "EMPTY BOXES" in the title and very large letters in the description was clear enough and that I was obviously scamming.  They decided to bid really high, then message me and say they wouldn't be paying.  What a waste of everyone's time.

I challenged them and said that that'd identified they were empty boxes, so why wouldn't everyone else?  No response.

 

--------

 

The problem in this case is that the seller probably knows you really want the item so will do what they can do make you keep it.

By instigating a return through ebay, they will be forced to refund you but will get a final value fee back - everything will be reversed.  They will then sell it to the next person who may accept it.

It's hard as I've been in the same place and negative feedback doesn't really hold much weight these days.  There's so many protections in place as a buyer that I don't really worry about feedback.  I know I'll get my money back if there's something wrong.  Sent back a pair of trousers recently as they were the wrong size (advertised as the wrong size).  Other things (like books) that are described as "excellent" but turn up with scribbles are simply refunded straight away.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Sir TophamHatt