Rails of Sheffield Improved Precedent Class

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

They are now starting to appear on Ebay. The speculative "collectors" have presumably become bored with admiring their latest purchase and want their money back. The highest prices are being asked for the LNWR livery versions.

Yet its still available from Locomotion at £220+ postage (which i recall isnt cheap), so after fees there only getting their money back, so not really into speculation…  yet…

 

But if buyers prefer to buy off ebay without warranty, for a higher price when its a ailable direct for less and with warranty, then they get what they ask for.

 

However once sold out I dont doubt the price will only go up.

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by adb968008

[60800]

Did Hardwicke ever wear LMS crimson lake? I'm struggling to find photos of the class in anything other than black when wearing LMS numbers.

 

Cheers,

  60800

Edited March 9, 2023 by 60800

[Buhar]

Very few were crimson, but 5036 (as done by Rails) was one of them.  I believe a few to have had the crimson style of roundel and number on tender but still in black.  I don't know what lining (if any) was applied as it pre-dated the red lining decision.  Hardwick remained black.

 

Alan

[60800]

4 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Hardwick remained black.

 

Alan

 

Thanks Alan, I was looking at getting 5036 and renaming/renumbering to Hardwicke as Rails currently have it on offer, but since she stayed black I'll pick up the NRM one at some point. 

 

Cheers,

  60800

[Poor Old Bruce]

It's probably been written somewhere on here already but there were four Precedents painted LMS red:

 

5012 John Ramsbottom

5036 Novelty

5050 Merrie Carlisle

5069 Penrith Beacon

 

5069 apparently didn't get the tender numbers and 5012 kept the red livery with post 1928 markings.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

5069 apparently didn't get the tender numbers 

 

Do you mean by that that 5069 was not painted red until after the 1928 livery change? (By which point, lined black would have been the official style though plain black the norm, I believe.)

[tractionman]

Looks like the Black version has now sold out at Rails, the latest offer of £179 perhaps helped:

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/collections/lnwr-precedent-class

 

 

[Legend]

The fact that these didnt sell out at £220 is interesting . 

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Legend said:

The fact that these didnt sell out at £220 is interesting . 

 

I wonder to what extent price is the issue, or whether this reflects a general lack of interest in modelling the inter-war period? (GWR excepted!) The versions in BR lined black sold out quickly enough! 

[Hibelroad]

The LNWR versions sold out too but I think there is a lack of interest in LMS at the moment. This is evident in the scarcity of LMS layouts in the magazines., which is a shame.

[Andy Hayter]

It should be noted  that in the latest modellers survey run by @AY Modthere was a significant drop off in interest in the grouping period.  This information came out after the model was released, so Rails may have overestimated  the potential interest.

 

In contrast interest in Pre-grouping has risen and perhaps helps to explain the early stock out of the LNWR version.  There will of course be other reasons for this as well.

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The versions in BR lined black sold out quickly enough! 

 

7 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

The LNWR versions sold out too

 

I fear you may have missed my little joke.

[tractionman]

11 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

It should be noted  that in the latest modellers survey run by @AY Modthere was a significant drop off in interest in the grouping period.

 

as an aside I see this month's Railway Modeller mag has a special supplement dedicated to "Express Steam Locomotives of the London, Midland & Scottish Railway", basically the LMS-built locos in this instance but still nice to see for those of us (in the minority it seems!**) who like our 1930s/40s LMS...

 

** but see below 👇

Edited March 10, 2023 by tractionman

[Andy Hayter]

Not minority.  That is still pregrouping, 90s and current scene - but grouping is down from where it was.  It was 20% in 2014 and is now 14%.  Given the number of different periods modelled, 14% is still significant.

[ndeluck]

deleted. wrong thread

Edited March 10, 2023 by ndeluck

[Poor Old Bruce]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do you mean by that that 5069 was not painted red until after the 1928 livery change? (By which point, lined black would have been the official style though plain black the norm, I believe.)

 

The information given is taken from Essery and Jenkinson's LMS Locomotives Volume Two.

 

Yeadon states that Crewe only applied LMS red to these locos from Oct 1923 to Feb 1924 and that 5069 had the LMS number applied in Feb 1924 when the red was presumably applied. The implication being that 5069's tender escaped having the number applied at that point.

[Buhar]

I've got one scan of a picture of 5069 with front numberplate but no sign of other livery details such as cabside roundel and tender number.  The picture is the standard three-quarter view tending towards front-on (undated).  I think it's conceivable that it ran without tender numerals given the state of flux both in the company as a whole and at Crewe.  There was at that time the hymn-board idea on tenders to facilitate tender swaps.

 

Alan

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

Yeadon states that Crewe only applied LMS red to these locos from Oct 1923 to Feb 1924 and that 5069 had the LMS number applied in Feb 1924 when the red was presumably applied. The implication being that 5069's tender escaped having the number applied at that point.

 

Which would mean, 5069 only displayed the number on the smokebox plate (if fitted) and ran with a black tender, (We know all about LNWR tenders.)

[Poor Old Bruce]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Which would mean, 5069 only displayed the number on the smokebox plate (if fitted) and ran with a black tender, (We know all about LNWR tenders.)

 

I would change "would" to "could". While a red engine with a black tender may have been a possibility I have not found any reference to such an occurrence, unless you know different of course.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

I would change "would" to "could". While a red engine with a black tender may have been a possibility I have not found any reference to such an occurrence, unless you know different of course.

 

I am struggling to get my head around the information offered, which seems to be that four Jumbos were painted red in Oct 23 - Feb 24 but that 5069 was not paired with a tender carrying its number; that to me implies that it did not receive a red-painted tender, since it seems improbable that having painted the tender red, the number transfers would not be applied. 

 

By Oct 23 the official LMS painting schemes were well-established, even if not generally applied at Crewe, on account, as I understand it, of the limited capacity of the paint shop, which was in the throes of a major reorganisation. It's not like the situation with the Beames 0-8-4Ts earlier in 1923, which came out in an interesting variety of liveries, including LNWR lined black with LMS in block letters on the tank side.

[tractionman]

On 10/03/2023 at 10:12, Hibelroad said:

The LNWR versions sold out too but I think there is a lack of interest in LMS at the moment. This is evident in the scarcity of LMS layouts in the magazines., which is a shame.

 

if anyone is still after the NRM 'special', LNWR Precedent Class 2-4-0 No.790 'Hardwicke', it's on sale at £180 at the mo -- via https://locomotionmodels.com/exclusives/steam-locomotives/lnwr-improved-precedent-class-2-4-0-no-790-hardwicke

[KymN]

I just bought one - too good to miss.  My railway is supposed to be in the South West, but who cares?

[Helmdon]

19 hours ago, tractionman said:

 

if anyone is still after the NRM 'special', LNWR Precedent Class 2-4-0 No.790 'Hardwicke', it's on sale at £180 at the mo -- via https://locomotionmodels.com/exclusives/steam-locomotives/lnwr-improved-precedent-class-2-4-0-no-790-hardwicke

 

I've been thinking about this - how Lucknow sold out so quickly and the others didn't. I wonder if it was a combination of serious modellers not wanting the white roof, people really wanting Hardwicke but not twigging it was available elsewhere (ie seeing that a Precedent was being made and ordering the first LNWR black one they saw in the Rails advert...) or what?

 

It just seems very odd that Lucknow could apparently have sold a few more, and all the others are/were hanging around a bit more.

 

Obviously, as a Lucknow owner, it doesn't really affect me!

Edited March 20, 2023 by Helmdon

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, Helmdon said:

I wonder if it was a combination of serious modellers not wanting the white roof, 

‘Serious’ modellers could easily paint it 😆

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

‘Serious’ modellers could easily paint it 😆

 

Perhaps there is a shortage of serious modellers or many buyers are afraid to alter a model which might devalue it. That could apply to those who don't actually model pre-group/LNWR and just bought it because it is "pretty" and may sell it after a while to fund the next on trend model  purchase.