RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 I do wonder especially with some of these peculiar van decorations if we are lloking more art the work of a the catalogue illustration department rather than any serious attempt at proper research and decoration? No doubt the toy trade won't mind in the least because most of their customers will know no different and I can't help also wondering to what extent some 'railway modellers' are unlikely to know any better either - to them these will just be 'wagons'. Folk here might not like it, and I too think it is also rather crass, but I suspect that overall that will have very little impact on the way these wagons are likely to sell. But that raises the spectre of Hornby finding that they needn't bother either if they can still sell stuff like this and that is a bit worrying. 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said: I do wonder especially with some of these peculiar van decorations if we are lloking more art the work of a the catalogue illustration department rather than any serious attempt at proper research and decoration? No doubt the toy trade won't mind in the least because most of their customers will know no different and I can't help also wondering to what extent some 'railway modellers' are unlikely to know any better either - to them these will just be 'wagons'. Folk here might not like it, and I too think it is also rather crass, but I suspect that overall that will have very little impact on the way these wagons are likely to sell. But that raises the spectre of Hornby finding that they needn't bother either if they can still sell stuff like this and that is a bit worrying. You have pinpointed my 'gut' feeling on the button. If you start down the road with the attitude of "that'll do for you" then we will be back in the 1970s before you know it. That said, you can't really blame the manufacturers for trying to get away with it. After all, how many 'toy train buyers' know what a solebar is, or, do they even care? "That's nice! Little Johnny has a nice new grey wagon for his train set. I wonder what those 3 white lines are for?" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
64F Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 22 minutes ago, tomparryharry said: You have pinpointed my 'gut' feeling on the button. If you start down the road with the attitude of "that'll do for you" then we will be back in the 1970s before you know it. That said, you can't really blame the manufacturers for trying to get away with it. After all, how many 'toy train buyers' know what a solebar is, or, do they even care? "That's nice! Little Johnny has a nice new grey wagon for his train set. I wonder what those 3 white lines are for?" Even so, it is a bizarre move to try to sell a vanfit as a shocvan because (a) anyone with knowledge of wagons would know that it was wrong, and as Hornby do employ such people this suggest that they had little or no involvement in this particular livery choice, and (b) commercially it adds nothing to the salability of the model amongst people who do not know any better, whilst killing stone dead its appeal to anyone who does. If it was a nice distinctive livery that was markedly different from plain bauxite then I could understand it, but I don't see anyone rushing to the shops to buy one just because it has three small white lines on the doors. If they wanted to up the appeal of their venerable vent van then some traders' labels would have made a lot more sense, as they might then pick up a few sales from more serious modelers who would normally look elsewhere for vans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 In a slightly different vein, it 'could' be a litmus test, just to see the modellers reaction to this. " can we get away with this?". That said, although Hornby have advertised it, it's not necessarily the case that Hornby are going to make it. Is it the start of Hornby's new Junior range? One would hope so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covkid Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said: I do wonder especially with some of these peculiar van decorations if we are lloking more art the work of a the catalogue illustration department rather than any serious attempt at proper research and decoration? No doubt the toy trade won't mind in the least because most of their customers will know no different and I can't help also wondering to what extent some 'railway modellers' are unlikely to know any better either - to them these will just be 'wagons'. Folk here might not like it, and I too think it is also rather crass, but I suspect that overall that will have very little impact on the way these wagons are likely to sell. But that raises the spectre of Hornby finding that they needn't bother either if they can still sell stuff like this and that is a bit worrying. 1 hour ago, tomparryharry said: You have pinpointed my 'gut' feeling on the button. If you start down the road with the attitude of "that'll do for you" then we will be back in the 1970s before you know it. That said, you can't really blame the manufacturers for trying to get away with it. After all, how many 'toy train buyers' know what a solebar is, or, do they even care? "That's nice! Little Johnny has a nice new grey wagon for his train set. I wonder what those 3 white lines are for?" 23 minutes ago, 64F said: Even so, it is a bizarre move to try to sell a vanfit as a shocvan because (a) anyone with knowledge of wagons would know that it was wrong, and as Hornby do employ such people this suggest that they had little or no involvement in this particular livery choice, and (b) commercially it adds nothing to the salability of the model amongst people who do not know any better, whilst killing stone dead its appeal to anyone who does. If it was a nice distinctive livery that was markedly different from plain bauxite then I could understand it, but I don't see anyone rushing to the shops to buy one just because it has three small white lines on the doors. If they wanted to up the appeal of their venerable vent van then some traders' labels would have made a lot more sense, as they might then pick up a few sales from more serious modelers who would normally look elsewhere for vans. I think you are touching on something which is far wider than just the Hornby 2021 release, but only certain manufacturers (or their staff) and only certain products. I was a little alarmed to hear several years ago that a certain N gauge class 56 designed by a certain person in model railway design at that time was a "one size fits all" product and any customer needed to accept the single moulding for what it was, whether they wanted the Romanian, Doncaster or Crewe cabbed versions. Whether you describe that approach as "business led", financially acceptable or lacksadaisical is your choice. I wouldn't be buying it though If I modelled in that scale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2021 Example:- " I'd like to buy some steak." "We can sell you a pork pie..." "But I don't want a pork pie, I wanted steak." "Aaw! Too bad! No steak! But, if you close your eyes, you can pretend you're eating steak. Slap a bit of mustard on it, no one will notice....." "But! This mustard is coloured red!" " I told you! Close your eyes!" A bit OTT, but hopefully you get the drift..... 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Horrocks Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 Someone likes prog metal music at Hornby. The two lowmacs refer to Canadian musician Devin Townsend and to Dutch musician Arjen Anthony Lucassen who created Ayreon - both legends of prog metal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jon Horrocks said: Someone likes prog metal music at Hornby. The two lowmacs refer to Canadian musician Devin Townsend and to Dutch musician Arjen Anthony Lucassen who created Ayreon - both legends of prog metal. Never noticed those two. Couldn't quite get into Devin Townsend though. He's the one on the left I think... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 It's been noted by us members of the bluebell wagon group that the UniteD DairieS liveried tanker No 4430 also suffers the same as this year's "shock van" Chassis could pass as ok but everything up top, the tank and ladder are wrong. P.s. Does anyone know of a better model/kit of this type of tanker? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2021 Could be better but does resemble this one of the type being modelled. https://zenfolio.page.link/kyu3b 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 I think that's the old Lima one from about forty years ago with a bit of a revamp around the chassis for the coupling. The problem is, if they did make a proper detailed Milk Tank would people be willing to pay good money for one? I doubt it they would be cheap. Probably in the £35 plus range. I can hear the moans already "How much? It's just a wagon"...... Jason 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 6, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: I think that's the old Lima one from about forty years ago with a bit of a revamp around the chassis for the coupling. The problem is, if they did make a proper detailed Milk Tank would people be willing to pay good money for one? I doubt it they would be cheap. Probably in the £35 plus range. I can hear the moans already "How much? It's just a wagon"...... Jason I've got both a Hornby 6 wheeler from a few years back and a Lima from even more years back and they are quite similar. They have been released in several company (both tank and chassis) liveries over the years AFAIK the new release is just the same model as the 2008 Hornby version of the Lima wagon My Lima is "IMS" on a black tank (not my photos!) The Hornby one "Independent Milk Suppplies on a red-brown tank. Edited January 6, 2021 by melmerby 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 On the subject of mistakes in the livery application to the “wrong” wagon style... The Railroad cattle wagon illustration is almost certainly a retouch of a previous illustration of the Thomas Series Cattle wagon. The holes in the disk wheels are in the same place, relative to the chassis. Possibly, just possibly, these are in fact just “artist’s impressions”, and the actual models will be different? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2021 7 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said: Possibly, just possibly, these are in fact just “artist’s impressions”, and the actual models will be different? If so, they are ineffective advertising, as they invite such adverse comment. Anyway, it seems to me that's unlike Hornby, whose mode of operation appears to be only to announce models when they're nearly ready. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) Hornby's approach to wagons has been like this for years. They become sporadically interested and pop out a really top quality model, but surround it with miscellaneous old stuff, some of which should really be in the Railroad range by now, and reasonably detailed but generic items like the "plank" wagons. It seems weird and chaotic, but we have to assume they know their customers. 20 hours ago, tomparryharry said: After all, how many 'toy train buyers' know what a solebar is, or, do they even care? "That's nice! Little Johnny has a nice new grey wagon for his train set. I wonder what those 3 white lines are for?" Pretty much this, except that Little Johnny is for the most part over 50 and buying for himself. He is primarily interested in locos and isn't too bothered what goes behind them as long as it looks the part. Edited January 7, 2021 by Flying Pig 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2021 You might be right, but for a bit more thought, Hornby could be basking in "Oh! Yes! instead of Oh, no....." Situations like this clearly illustrate some sort of need of higher-end range by Hornby. There is clearly a market for this in RTR land, and yet they continue to pass off second rate product. It doesn't help Hornby at all. Discerning purchasers object to the product offered by either price or fidelity, and bolster a mis-held reputation for cheapness. Hornby can produce some superlative models; real first class work, and yet continue to turn out, well....... I have no grief with Hornby, and I wish the best for them. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Flying Pig said: Pretty much this, except that Little Johnny is for the most part over 50 and buying for himself. He is primarily interested in locos and isn't too bothered what goes behind them as long as it looks the part. I aren't called Johnny, I aren't over 50 (but am buying for myself). I too am primarily interested in locos but I very much care about what they pull. I think the only Hornby wagons I have are coalfishes and given I probably have more money in wagons than I do in locos is that good for Hornby or not? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 17 hours ago, Jon Horrocks said: Someone likes prog metal music at Hornby. The two lowmacs refer to Canadian musician Devin Townsend and to Dutch musician Arjen Anthony Lucassen who created Ayreon - both legends of prog metal. There's also a Tanktainer branded Stolt, although I believe this is a genuine company, not just a nod to the magnificent Roine of The Flower Kings and Transatlantic ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, TomScrut said: is that good for Hornby or not? We aren't party to Hornby's actual strategy and can only speculate, but it is clear that updating their wagon range isn't a high priority. Presumably they think development elsewhere will bring a better return and the state of the wagon range isn't harming sales of high margin products enough to worry about unduly. Interestingly, carriages attract more attention and have been extensively renewed over the years, but even so I think one could argue that they are intended to drive loco sales. The ongoing absence of an LMS driving trailer is a case in point - several suitable locos exist to attract buyers for one, but they aren't in the Hornby range. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 13 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said: On the subject of mistakes in the livery application to the “wrong” wagon style... The Railroad cattle wagon illustration is almost certainly a retouch of a previous illustration of the Thomas Series Cattle wagon. The holes in the disk wheels are in the same place, relative to the chassis. Possibly, just possibly, these are in fact just “artist’s impressions”, and the actual models will be different? They look like renders done over a photograph of an actual model (as are a lot of the wagons in this years announcentl so are normally quite accurate when the do the same for locos/coaches. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, Flying Pig said: We aren't party to Hornby's actual strategy and can only speculate, but it is clear that updating their wagon range isn't a high priority. Yes, it's just strange I think. Although a £35 MK3 or MK4 carriage does have a better £/length ratio than pretty much any wagon on the market. But my longest trains are all freight. I am though not really spoiling for wagons to buy, ironically the only wagons I am lusting after a rerun of are the ones Hornby have the tooling for, the Drax biomass (although whether when why how and Drax themselves have been discussed to death so not wanting to reopen that). It's just a lot of my money is going to other places where they are interested in making modern wagons. Whilst most of my wagon pre orders are Accurascale and Revolution, most of my existing stuff is Dapol or Bachmann. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Flying Pig said: We aren't party to Hornby's actual strategy and can only speculate, but it is clear that updating their wagon range isn't a high priority. IMHO Oxford have the best range of new-tooled wagons (even with some glaring discrepancies!) at a reasonable price, being little over half the price of Bachmann's cruder ex-Mainline offerings in the 33-XXX series and similar in price to Hornby's ancient even cruder offerings. Do Hornby still have shares in Oxford? If so maybe the competively priced range of their wagons brings a return for Hornby through dividends Edited January 7, 2021 by melmerby 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2021 Bachmann's 37-xxx series of RCH 1923 mineral wagons remain among the very best steam-era RTR wagons around. It's a shame they can't bring themselves to be a little more self-disciplined in regard to choice of liveries! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 On 06/01/2021 at 06:55, Enterprisingwestern said: Just an observation, but, IMHO, Hornby have missed a trick, that is, consign the original MGR to the dustbin and knock out the newer re-tooled version in the Railroad range at a tenner a pop. Do they not realise a far superior model is on it's way at a not too dis-similar price to their below par representation? Mike. Hornby - It's the name you know. One of my friends works in a model shop & has seen first hand that there are lots of customers looking for a "Hornby set". From their point of view, will a Bachmann, Oxford, Cavalex or Accurascale wagon run on Hornby track? What's this Peco stuff all about? Modellers more familiar with the hobby (including all those on this forum) will know the answers. For some, the name Hornby is a reassurance of compatibility. 1 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 7, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Bachmann's 37-xxx series of RCH 1923 mineral wagons remain among the very best steam-era RTR wagons around. It's a shame they can't bring themselves to be a little more self-disciplined in regard to choice of liveries! They even get the colour wrong sometimes. In one case a wagon was on the official manfacturer's B/W photo as being painted in "lead" colour. Bachmann painted it red lead colour when it should have been lead grey. Mind you my dad worked in an industry where specifying something in "lead paint" finish was red lead! I think both Bachmann and Hornby milk their old toolings far too much, such that the price/quality ratio is too high. Apart from better wheels and couplings the ex-Mainline stuff hasn't had much updating, meanwhile the oldest Hornby stuff hasn't even benefitted to new couplings in many cases. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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