Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[NIK]

1 minute ago, john new said:

The very deadly one after WW1 spread very rapidly. IIRC it got into and then spread in a camp where they were mustering people for transport home, was inadequately dealt with and was therefore shipped home with the returning troops. Despite knowledge in the USA they still held mass victory parades spreading it faster and further into the resident population. It got labelled Spanish Flu but I seem to also recall that was a political/news media publicity thing and not a direct connection to Spain as the origin. 
 

I guess the reverse applies today, the west doesn’t want to upset relations with China, so Chinese (Flu?) is not the media headline name but instead the less contentious COVID-19 is being used.

Hi,

 

I understand Spanish flu was so called because the Spanish government were the first to document its prevalence.

 

Maybe a bit similar to the Kent COVID variant which was first reported from samples analysed in the UK (the worlds biggest analyser of samples for COVID?) that happened to come from people in Kent.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

from an ink well in the desk, and we all had to take turns at being ink monitor.. That was going round each desk and filling the ink wells.. trying not get covered in dark blue ink...

 

Still had desks with inkwells when I was at school in the 80s and some classrooms still had them in to the 90s, but they certainly weren't used by then, we all thought the desks must've been ancient because of them.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

 

Still had desks with inkwells when I was at school in the 80s and some classrooms still had them in to the 90s, but they certainly weren't used by then, we all thought the desks must've been ancient because of them.

And storage in the desk too even though we never sat in the same desk more than two periods a day - they were mainly filled with empty crisp packets and chewed gum - the ink well holes being excellent places to stuff the rubbish.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

An interesting thought, I think for a start people would have abided by the lockdown regulations better.... I doubt we'd have had a vaccine as quick and I suspect many more would have died than have now...

A lot of people would have been confined to Isolation Hospitals; almost every town had one or more of these, and patients would be transferred to these from General Hospitals. The last I heard of someone being sent to one was in the late 1960s, when one of my year tested positive for TB before having his BCG jab. Apart from the Isolation Hospitals, there were Sanitoria, in even more isolated locations; my mother was in one for a while prior to WW2. From her accounts, they seem to have been based on Darwinian principles, basically 'kill or cure', with patients left on beds on the open balconies, even when temperatures hovered around freezing. In mum's case, she survived to work throughout WW2, bear two children, and live to 95.

[hayfield]

My wife's grandfather caught TB fighting fires in the second world war, he had a daily ration of cigarettes whilst in hospital  

[Hobby]

9 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

 From her accounts, they seem to have been based on Darwinian principles, basically 'kill or cure', with patients left on beds on the open balconies, 

 

From what I remember it was felt that fresh air was always beneficial, at least that was the medical thinking of the time, so I think that comparing to Darwin is very harsh. My mum's first child died not long after birth when subjected to the same "treatment" a few weeks after birth, that was just after WW2. She didn't want the child to be where it was but that was how it was done. She never really forgave them though. Looking at medical treatments over the years we can, with hindsight, be saddened about how they did things, but at the time they thought it was best. Nothing changes in that respect. 

[boxbrownie]

7 hours ago, Reorte said:

Must've been bad if they were throwing the entire board at your head instead of just the chalk!

Not as bad as my Biology teacher, talk in his class and you got a frog thrown at you......RSPCwho?

[62613]

11 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Outside of the areas referenced above, there were riots in Merthyr Tydfil in 1831, with the execution of the alleged ringleader, Dic Penderyn, and deportation of others.

There was also activity in various more rural areas : in South Wales, there were the Rebekah Riots (protesting at the imposition of road tolls), and in Kent, 'Captain Swing' (against mechanisation of agriculture).

The English, in particular, had a reputation for rioting every now and then, sometimes instigated by their "Betters". In the case of Dic Penderyn, and the Merthyr riots coupled with those in Newport, were more to do with the early manifestations of Reform agitation and Chartism. Luddism was dead by 1817, more or less.

[monkeysarefun]

8 hours ago, 62613 said:

The English, in particular, had a reputation for rioting every now and then, sometimes instigated by their "Betters". In the case of Dic Penderyn, and the Merthyr riots coupled with those in Newport, were more to do with the early manifestations of Reform agitation and Chartism. Luddism was dead by 1817, more or less.

 At school we were taught about how 332 people, historically known here at least as "The machine breakers"  were transported to Tasmania in 1831 as a result of the swing riots, a lesser number to NSW. They were one of the largest groups transported to Australia for a common crime and were certainly the largest group ever transported from England to the Australian colonies for a crime of social or political protest and made up the most if not all the convict complements of the transport ships Proteus and the Eliza on their voyage here. (To tie two threads together, several of them died of TB shortly after arriving.)

 

Having agricultural skills the machine breakers were such valuable workers in the colony that they were probably better treated than the typical convict who would have been assigned to a rural master at that time.

 

At the end of their sentences most of the surviving machine breakers remained in the colony as farm workers and small tenant farmers, though  possibly up to fifty returned to England, and possibly as many as another hundred and fifty left Tasmania for other parts of the colony, like Port Phillip, now Melbourne .

Some became quite wealthy by the standards of the time, and many others became small landowners or successful business operators so I guess they did alright for themselves. 

Many of the machine breakers were eventually joined in the colonies by members of their family or by close relatives or fellow villagers. This is primarily due to the machine breakers sending back written reports about life in the colonies.

 

Like I said we had to learn about them at school for some reason, along with the Tolpuddle martyrs. Maybe our education system is socialist like our health system (just echoing certin US republican recent remarks...). though it made a change from learning about all those uppercrust gentleman- explorers who'd wander off into the scrub looking for a path over the Blue Mountains or for our conjectured inland sea and never be  seen again. And at least no one threw frogs at us.

 

As to how the virus would have been handled differently in the '60's. Right from the early days Australia has always had a strict quarantine regime for arrivals with suspected illnesses so, we'd just bung everyone in.

 

The original quarantine station was at North head near Manly, then an isolated spot where it was hoped sea air would dispel any fever or miasmas. Many thousands died there over the years, now it is an upmarket hotel and ghost tour attraction.

 

More recently Prince Henry hospital in the eastern suburbs on cliffs overlooking the Sth Pacific ocean  was used. It is a lovely spot.

 

And finally to return to covid I found a text on my phone I'd missed from last week saying I can book in for my covid shot, I assume it'll be pfizzer or however you spell it. T'was a complete surprise since I thought our vaccine rollout had fallen in a heap. I've stuck it in the round tuit.

Edited May 1, 2021 by monkeysarefun

[Hobby]

14 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Not as bad as my Biology teacher, talk in his class and you got a frog thrown at you....

 

Before or after dissection?

[hayfield]

Was it yesterday or thursday the UK government ordered another 60 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, whilst not a total surprise I wondered what was the thinking behind it

 

Well today might have the answer

 

"Pfizer and BioNTech seek EU approval to use COVID vaccine on children aged 12 to 15 "

 

Are the UK planning to vaccinate the 12 to 17 year olds later in the year ?  I accept this is about European approval, but I assume we are doing a similar thing?

[Bernard Lamb]

42 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Was it yesterday or thursday the UK government ordered another 60 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, whilst not a total surprise I wondered what was the thinking behind it

 

Well today might have the answer

 

"Pfizer and BioNTech seek EU approval to use COVID vaccine on children aged 12 to 15 "

 

Are the UK planning to vaccinate the 12 to 17 year olds later in the year ?  I accept this is about European approval, but I assume we are doing a similar thing?

My understanding of this is that they are required to cover the possible need for a booster jab later in the year.

Bernard

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Before or after dissection?

Usually it was before, during dissection we never talked 

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

My understanding of this is that they are required to cover the possible need for a booster jab later in the year.

Bernard

 

Bernard

 

The think is as well as the Pfizer and Astra Zenica we will have supplies of the Moderna and Valvena vaccines, so we will have plenty to chose from if the results of having 2 different vaccines gives even better protection. If the Pfizer vaccines are authorised for 12+ age groups it would greatly reduce one of the major contributors of the spike in the autumn/early winter last year.

Edited May 1, 2021 by hayfield

[tender]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Bernard

 

The think is as well as the Pfizer and Astra Zenica we will have supplies of the Moderna and Valvena vaccines, so we will have plenty to chose from and the results is having 2 different vaccines gives even better protection. If the Pfizer vaccines are authorised for 12+ age groups it would greatly reduce one of the major contributors of the spike in the autumn/early winter last year.

Is there any scientific data to back that statement up? 

[Metr0Land]

1 hour ago, tender said:

Is there any scientific data to back that statement up? 

 

This news back on 31March:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56591429

 

Presumably work is going on apace to get UK approval for 12-17's?

[Andy Hayter]

That is about vaccinating teenagers not about mixing vaccines.

 

While experiments are apace to test such mixing, I have seen no published evidence for its efficiency - good or bad.

[Metr0Land]

According to this, trial results expcted June/July

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/14/uk-study-on-mixing-covid-vaccines-between-jabs-to-be-expanded

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, tender said:

Is there any scientific data to back that statement up? 

 

Sorry a typo, I believe a study(s) are under way as it has been spoken about several times, either for added protection from a new variant if the original variant is less effective and or the original make of vaccine being unavailable. Certainly at one time it was mooted that a different vaccine for the third top up dose would be different

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, tender said:

Is there any scientific data to back that statement up? 

 

21 hours ago, hayfield said:

Was it yesterday or thursday the UK government ordered another 60 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, whilst not a total surprise I wondered what was the thinking behind it

 

Well today might have the answer

 

"Pfizer and BioNTech seek EU approval to use COVID vaccine on children aged 12 to 15 "

 

Are the UK planning to vaccinate the 12 to 17 year olds later in the year ?  I accept this is about European approval, but I assume we are doing a similar thing?

 

The Times today

 

NHS draws up vaccine plan to offer the Pfizer vaccine to secondary school children 

 

Core planning scenario documents compiled by NHS officials include the offer of a single dose to children 12 and over when the new school year starts  

 

Seems 1 & 1 adds up to 2, but not 1+1+1=3. Though my guess  about the top up being a different make may just be premature thinking. What ever good to see the vaccine rollout process is at forefront of medical thinking

[Neil]

I've noticed today that both the Mail and Express have stories broadly emphasising a return to normality and that Liverpool has been trialling mass gatherings. However these bits of news seem at odds with this more cautious approach advocated for those who are fully vaccinated described in this piece for the Guardian yesterday. Given that the majority of the Liverpool clubbers will be too young to have had one let alone both doses of the vaccine there seems to be a huge disparity of approach. Also the dates quoted in the Mail's leader mean that easing will be taking place before all adults will have had one let alone two jabs.

[woodenhead]

30 minutes ago, Neil said:

I've noticed today that both the Mail and Express have stories broadly emphasising a return to normality and that Liverpool has been trialling mass gatherings. However these bits of news seem at odds with this more cautious approach advocated for those who are fully vaccinated described in this piece for the Guardian yesterday. Given that the majority of the Liverpool clubbers will be too young to have had one let alone both doses of the vaccine there seems to be a huge disparity of approach. Also the dates quoted in the Mail's leader mean that easing will be taking place before all adults will have had one let alone two jabs.

I think it comes from the risk profile - the younger are still much less likely to be as badly impacted and with the older people above 50 all vaccinated then the impact on the NHS is mitigated.

 

Self isolation in the case of being near someone with Covid may also soon become a thing of the past, being replaced with daily self testing:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56958885

 

The mass 3000 people rave in Liverpool, all participants had to show a negative test before being allowed to attend and it surely is a good test now before everything opens up to see what might happen, the risk must be seen as low or they wouldn't have even allowed such an event.  It's been discussed before I think, the Government is very cautious with this move out of lockdown as it will not want to be seen two years down the line in the public inquiry into Covid as reckless.

[hayfield]

43 minutes ago, Neil said:

I've noticed today that both the Mail and Express have stories broadly emphasising a return to normality and that Liverpool has been trialling mass gatherings. However these bits of news seem at odds with this more cautious approach advocated for those who are fully vaccinated described in this piece for the Guardian yesterday. Given that the majority of the Liverpool clubbers will be too young to have had one let alone both doses of the vaccine there seems to be a huge disparity of approach. Also the dates quoted in the Mail's leader mean that easing will be taking place before all adults will have had one let alone two jabs.

 

 

You have two different things going on, whilst its safer than ever to mix for those who have been vaccinated, we are still being asked to take precautions until a greater number have some form of vaccination protection. Professor Van Tam is on record stating the risk of transmission between 2 fully vaccinated people meeting indoors is extremely low. But everyone will follow the same rules vaccinated or not

 

Along side the above, various events are being studded for possible virus transmission in a controlled manner. This is in preparation of further easing of restrictions. Most of those who are at high risk have had at least 1 if not both doses, 40 + age groups are booking appointments and I assume this will drop down to 35 +  group very soon as the UK will see increased vaccine supplies this month

 

Plans seem to be being prepared to vaccinate secondary age pupils to be vaccinated next term and I think I heard we all are getting booster jabs in the autumn covering newer strains

[rocor]

18 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I think it comes from the risk profile - the younger are still much less likely to be as badly impacted and with the older people above 50 all vaccinated then the impact on the NHS is mitigated.

 

Self isolation in the case of being near someone with Covid may also soon become a thing of the past, being replaced with daily self testing:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56958885

 

The mass 3000 people rave in Liverpool, all participants had to show a negative test before being allowed to attend and it surely is a good test now before everything opens up to see what might happen, the risk must be seen as low or they wouldn't have even allowed such an event.  It's been discussed before I think, the Government is very cautious with this move out of lockdown as it will not want to be seen two years down the line in the public inquiry into Covid as reckless.

 

If you put 3000 people that have been shown to be free of the COVID-19 virus in proximity to each other, and then test them afterwards, and they are still clear. What has been proven?. 

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

If you put 3000 people that have been shown to be free of the COVID-19 virus in proximity to each other, and then test them afterwards, and they are still clear. What has been proven?. 

That people who are clear of the virus can congragate, that festivals can operate protocols that will make them safe to run.  That mass participation activities can run again with large crowds - football matches, rugby, cricket, festivals, exhibitions.......