Helston Revisited

[MJI]

I have a few of those hoppers!

[MJI]

Just found this as well

 

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

Just found this as well

 

 

Martin

Thanks for the link. The "stone shute" siding at Helston is interesting in that there was a siding under the embankment there from when the line opened to about 1932 or so. It originally seems to simply have been a head shunt for the goods platform (the length of which also changed) and terminated slightly short of the bridge where there was an ugly plate-layers hut. It was then re-laid somewhen after the end of the war and the stone shute added for the serpentine stone traffic. I am not at all sure how such traffic was handled before the siding was re-laid but it was certainly not via that siding as the aerial photo for May 1946 shows no sign of any tracks or roadway on the top of the embankment there. Perhaps if stone was handled it was via the mark one shovel into standard open wagons from the goods platform?

regards

Andy

[MJI]

Luckily for me they wil be pasing trains.

 

Now trying to find my white transfer paper

[MJI]

Does anyone have a good shot of the right end of the side of a hopper?

 

I can get

20T

M69xxxx

 

IRON ORE

 

But no the right hand panel, and it is too big for tare.

[Andy Keane]

3 hours ago, MJI said:

Does anyone have a good shot of the right end of the side of a hopper?

 

I can get

20T

M69xxxx

 

IRON ORE

 

But no the right hand panel, and it is too big for tare.

I have lots of photos of the hoppers and on many that panel is blank. Unfortunately on the ones where it is not blank I cannot read it. Interestingly I have one photo where two of the hoppers are nearly in the loco shed. Presumably they had been used to bring coal to Helston. I could pm the photos to you if you want.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Andy Keane

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Interestingly I have one photo where two of the hoppers are nearly in the loco shed. Presumably they had been used to bring coal to Helston.

Possibly some running repairs that needed a pit?

[Andy Keane]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Possibly some running repairs that needed a pit?

Ah! - had not thought of that - did think it odd to see hoppers there. The attached is my photo of one from the Helston museum - what do you reckon?

[MJI]

13 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I have lots of photos of the hoppers and on many that panel is blank. Unfortunately on the ones where it is not blank I cannot read it. Interestingly I have one photo where two of the hoppers are nearly in the loco shed. Presumably they had been used to bring coal to Helston. I could pm the photos to you if you want.

 

Yes please.

 

CCT is checking if he has any of these else I will have to dig out my white transfer paper and hope it doesn't peel like it did on my 27T MSV stone carrying tippliers (trying to get one of the better quality compnies to produce a custom set).

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Ah! - had not thought of that - did think it odd to see hoppers there. The attached is my photo of one from the Helston museum - what do you reckon?

Dunno!

[The Stationmaster]

On 10/10/2022 at 09:56, St Enodoc said:

Dunno!

Agree.  I can think of several reasons  all of them equally odd or nonsensical or maybe done for a good reason at the time.  But I see the one nearest camera does have a label on the label clip and it's empty so I wonder if it had been 'marked off' for some reason and it was put there to either get it out of the way or for some attention?   Being hoppers of that size they would not have been used for coal, especially loco coal.

 

The stone shute siding is interesting.  Asccording to the redoubtable and usually painstaking Mr Cooke it was authorised  07 August 1956 and had been laid in by 'c.1958'.  As there was a traceable authority for its construction this suggests to me that it was probably for a new traffic flow and the dates might indcate that it didn't commence as soon as had been initially anticpated.

[Andy Keane]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Agree.  I can think of several reasons  all of them equally odd or nonsensical or maybe done for a good reason at the time.  But I see the one nearest camera does have a label on the label clip and it's empty so I wonder if it had been 'marked off' for some reason and it was put there to either get it out of the way or for some attention?   Being hoppers of that size they would not have been used for coal, especially loco coal.

 

The stone shute siding is interesting.  Asccording to the redoubtable and usually painstaking Mr Cooke it was authorised  07 August 1956 and had been laid in by 'c.1958'.  As there was a traceable authority for its construction this suggests to me that it was probably for a new traffic flow and the dates might indcate that it didn't commence as soon as had been initially anticpated.

Mike

Thanks for the input. I guess the siding was first built when the track plan was slightly different and a head shunt was needed but it rather fell into disuse when the layout of points was changed in the early 1900s and so was then lifted in the '30s. But then in 1956 the stone traffic justified a better loading scheme and they put it back as they had the space and the rather convenient hill behind it and also added the shute and roadway above at the same time.

Andy

Edited October 14, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I have now pretty much finished work on the hill behind the station and the base of the goods platform. The little flat bit above the goods platform is for the stable block.

I next need to add the facing stonework and edging slabs to the goods platform before I set to with the paint. I am still putting off gluing the hills down as that will be a point of no return.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

I am pondering what facilities the Helston gas company would have had at the station in the 1920s and '30s. We know they had four or five of their own wagons and that these were unloaded using the goods spur right at the far end of the station and then carted to their works in the town. But would they have weighed anything or might GWR have wanted them to have weighed the loads, given they were not using GWR wagons? There was a GWR weighbridge in the yard. Also do we assume they would not have off-loaded into staithes by the spur but simply straight into carts as needed, given as they owned the wagons there would be no charge for leaving coal in them until needed - or would GWR have charged simply for the wagons standing there? And might they have had an office down there? - I have no maps or photos to suggest they did but I have no real understanding of how such things were done. I am guessing the spur may have been treated almost like a private siding as we know other merchants coal was unloaded further into the station next to the goods shed. Maybe @The Stationmastercan advise?

thanks

Andy

[Tim Dubya]

We're the wagons weighed before leaving the colliery?

[Andy Keane]

7 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

We're the wagons weighed before leaving the colliery?

That's what I assume happened as the coal was going into Helston Gas Works wagons. I suppose the GWR then charged for the number of wagons, their weight and the distance, plus charges for them standing in the yard at Helston. But as the Gas Works had no sidings of their own they would have been on somebody else's metals all the time so presumably being charged for.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

Has anyone experience of this yard crane model: 

https://www.osbornsmodels.com/arch-laser-aloo-103-gwr-6-ton-yard-crane-40747-p.asp

Helston had a six ton crane.

[Harlequin]

57 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Has anyone experience of this yard crane model: 

https://www.osbornsmodels.com/arch-laser-aloo-103-gwr-6-ton-yard-crane-40747-p.asp

Helston had a six ton crane.

Have a look at the Osborns thread in Model Shop Guide before you buy anything, Andy.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

We're the wagons weighed before leaving the colliery?

Normal procedure was to tare weigh before loading and then weigh after loading although I wonder just to what extent tare weighing took place once PO wagons went out of use.   Coal was charged per wagon at a mileage rate per actual tonnage loaded to the wagon so the weight of the load was a critical factor for the railway as well as both the colliery and the consignee.

 

To what extent consignees check weighed I really don't know but many goods yards not only didn't have a weighbridge but very definitely didn't have a wagon weighbridge so the weight of the wagon load couldn't be checked entirely accurately.  However some power stations definitely weighed wagons and presumably tare weighed them once they were empty.

[Andy Keane]

29 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Normal procedure was to tare weigh before loading and then weigh after loading although I wonder just to what extent tare weighing took place once PO wagons went out of use.   Coal was charged per wagon at a mileage rate per actual tonnage loaded to the wagon so the weight of the load was a critical factor for the railway as well as both the colliery and the consignee.

 

To what extent consignees check weighed I really don't know but many goods yards not only didn't have a weighbridge but very definitely didn't have a wagon weighbridge so the weight of the wagon load couldn't be checked entirely accurately.  However some power stations definitely weighed wagons and presumably tare weighed them once they were empty.

Mike

So can you advise what pressure there might have been be on the gas company to unload a wagon at Helston onto the ground beside the siding as soon as it arrived, as opposed to leaving the coal in the company wagon until a cart was there so as to avoid handling it twice? Basically I am trying to decide if I should include staithes and coal next to the siding or just assume it went directly into wagons with a bit of spillage here and there and no staithes. Unfortunately I cannot find any photos of this area of the station before the war.

thanks

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

The detailed answer to some extent depends on who owned the wagon i.e. was it railway owned or was it privately owned?  The difference being that it it was railway owned and when over the allowed time for unloading then demurrage would become payable  but if it was privately owned siding rent would be charged instead of demurrage - and demurrage cost more.

 

I now need to roll my brain back. to when i did the station accountancy course in the late 1960s or delve out a GWR book from past years to try to get the numbers of days exact - and have found that I was sort of right.  On arrival at the unloading station a free period is allowed for unloading after which a daily charge is raised for each day or part thereof in excess of the free period.

 

The free periods were as follows for inwards (arriving) traffic in the 1930s and some were unchanged by the late 1960s -

Demurrage - at stations 2 days exclusive of the day of receipt by the trader of notice of arrival (I remembered that one😮)

- at private sidings and docks etc 3 days exclusive of the day of berthing (I've an idea that was reduced to 2 days by the 1960s but might be wrong there)

Siding Rent  -  4 days in London, 3 days elsewhere - in both cases exclusive of the day on which notice of arrival of the wagon is given

 

Siding Rent - for obvious reasons I hope - was also charged at a lower rate than demurrage but even by the mid 1960s we are literally only talking about a few shillings per day.  for some reasons a figure of 2/6d per day sticks in my mind but that might be the siding rent figure.  I knw that around the very late 1960s/early 1970s there was a very sharp increase in demurrage rates in a bid to try to improve wagon utilisation.

 

So the daily sums weren't huge although they could mount up over time especially with coal merchants who bought coal at cheap summer prices but kept it in wagons ready for the higher winter retail prices to come in.  If you have a gasworks with a fairly constant rate of coal use then I would think they'd aim to clear railway wagons as they arrived unless bunching occurred and they didn't have room to store the coal on their premises.  But assuming the gas works was pretty efficient in handling its coal and the rate of consumption was steady it meant that a wagon arriving (and advic sed to them the same day) on, say, Tuesday morning had to be fully unloaded by end of work on Thursday.

 

[Andy Keane]

27 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The detailed answer to some extent depends on who owned the wagon i.e. was it railway owned or was it privately owned?  The difference being that it it was railway owned and when over the allowed time for unloading then demurrage would become payable  but if it was privately owned siding rent would be charged instead of demurrage - and demurrage cost more.

 

I now need to roll my brain back. to when i did the station accountancy course in the late 1960s or delve out a GWR book from past years to try to get the numbers of days exact - and have found that I was sort of right.  On arrival at the unloading station a free period is allowed for unloading after which a daily charge is raised for each day or part thereof in excess of the free period.

 

The free periods were as follows for inwards (arriving) traffic in the 1930s and some were unchanged by the late 1960s -

Demurrage - at stations 2 days exclusive of the day of receipt by the trader of notice of arrival (I remembered that one😮)

- at private sidings and docks etc 3 days exclusive of the day of berthing (I've an idea that was reduced to 2 days by the 1960s but might be wrong there)

Siding Rent  -  4 days in London, 3 days elsewhere - in both cases exclusive of the day on which notice of arrival of the wagon is given

 

Siding Rent - for obvious reasons I hope - was also charged at a lower rate than demurrage but even by the mid 1960s we are literally only talking about a few shillings per day.  for some reasons a figure of 2/6d per day sticks in my mind but that might be the siding rent figure.  I knw that around the very late 1960s/early 1970s there was a very sharp increase in demurrage rates in a bid to try to improve wagon utilisation.

 

So the daily sums weren't huge although they could mount up over time especially with coal merchants who bought coal at cheap summer prices but kept it in wagons ready for the higher winter retail prices to come in.  If you have a gasworks with a fairly constant rate of coal use then I would think they'd aim to clear railway wagons as they arrived unless bunching occurred and they didn't have room to store the coal on their premises.  But assuming the gas works was pretty efficient in handling its coal and the rate of consumption was steady it meant that a wagon arriving (and advic sed to them the same day) on, say, Tuesday morning had to be fully unloaded by end of work on Thursday.

 

So I think I can safely assume they would not have staithes at the station but simply have a steady run of carts to and fro, storing their coal at the gas works. This will at least simplify modelling and its also the case that since they unloaded on top of an embankment there was probably little room for storage there anyway.

thanks

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

8 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

So I think I can safely assume they would not have staithes at the station but simply have a steady run of carts to and fro, storing their coal at the gas works. This will at least simplify modelling and its also the case that since they unloaded on top of an embankment there was probably little room for storage there anyway.

thanks

Andy

I think so.  Dumping stuff into cells (aka 'staithes') would have meant double handling.  So assuming they had reasonable storage space at the gas works it would have made the most sense to simply unload wagons straight to the cartage to get the coal to the gas works.  They might possibly occasionally put coal to ground near the siding if things were getting a bit fraught at the gasworks but I would have thought that would (should?) be a fairly rare event.

[Andy Keane]

Just roughed out the plate layers hut by the bridge before I glue down the cutting sides The roof needs cutting down to size still.

Then I can add point rodding bases and ballast etc. The fouling bar and FPL mechanism are already in place.

The large hole by the bridge is for the up main advanced starting and shunt signal post.

Its beginning to look more like a railway:

[Graham T]

Nice 🙂  The trackwork looks very good, as does the bridge.