KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[adb968008]

Bellerphron is a good Thomas the tank engine character name.

Maybe they put a smily face on it, paint it bright blue with cracked yellow lining, number 101 and have it as Thomas’s greek grandmother, the plate smasher.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

At the time the 'fully working' claim was made, I suspect that they had not seen more than a photo of the real thing.

 

CJI.

And maybe didn't understand how it worked and what was actually valve gear?  

 As I posted way back in this thread when it was first announced I couldn't really understand how they were going to get the linkage to the valve rod to move due to the small size and diameter, and in one case the length, of various parts of the gear.  If they'd done what they said they were going to do it would have been a fabiulous, and very cleaver, piece of work - but they didn't.

[adb968008]

I never believed it would have fully working valve gear anyway.

so i’m not overly dissapointed.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 21/10/2023 at 12:26, The Stationmaster said:

 

 As I posted way back in this thread when it was first announced I couldn't really understand how they were going to get the linkage to the valve rod to move due to the small size and diameter, and in one case the length, of various parts of the gear.

So perhaps they've done the right thing - the market probably doesn't really want a model with parts so fragile it will inevitably break while you're putting it onto the track for its first run.  Just shouldn't advertise it as something it ain't.

[wainwright1]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So perhaps they've done the right thing - the market probably doesn't really want a model with parts so fragile it will inevitably break while you're putting it onto the track for its first run.  Just shouldn't advertise it as something it ain't.

Already had that with Heljan's  Lynton and Barnstaple locos.

Edited October 23, 2023 by wainwright1

[BVMR21]

Newsletter came through earlier it seems Bellerophon is now due Q3 2024.

[zr2498]

3 minutes ago, BVMR21 said:

Newsletter came through earlier it seems Bellerophon is now due Q3 2024.

So from Autumn 23 to Autumn 24! Another 12 months. That means it has slipped ETA more than the elapsed time between newsletters. I wish I had never paid up front for 3 models I am waiting for. I wonder if I can get my money back?

[Fair Oak Junction]

3 minutes ago, zr2498 said:

So from Autumn 23 to Autumn 24! Another 12 months. That means it has slipped ETA more than the elapsed time between newsletters. I wish I had never paid up front for 3 models I am waiting for. I wonder if I can get my money back?

 

You should be able to, I cancelled my 2nd run GT3 before they came out and KR refunded me.

[AlfaZagato]

This was discussed around another make's delays and failures.   Even if KR doesn't voluntarily refund you, you may have a case via UK law.

[jjb1970]

Just ask them, it's always best to ask. If they agree (and I suspect they will) then job done without stressing over things that don't need it.

[Phil Parker]

Photos from Warley.

 

 

Note: There was a problem with the rolling road. When I tested the model on my layout, it was perfectly smooth running. Not the only demo that weekend where a track rubber would have been useful...

[Fair Oak Junction]

Lovely little thing.

[BVMR21]

Looking like a good bit of kit that!

[AlfaZagato]

Looks like the eccentrics are doing eccentric things.  Separately, too.

[Butler Henderson]

Looks like the nameplates are separately fitted as well and not the moulded lump that was mooted before.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Butler Henderson

[Fair Oak Junction]

Definitely looks like improvements have been made 👍

Really looking forward to seeing decorated samples

[BVMR21]

Personally very excited to see Bellerophon plodding around with some Genesis coaches...

[Edwardian]

Well no. 

 

Part of the gearing is working, but not with the correct scissoring motion, and part remains static. Exactly as previously shown.

 

I'm bound to say that I think that leaves the publicity concerning working motion over-stated and misleading.

 

Nevertheless, I will be buying one as I accept the compromises with eyes wide open, but, no, no improvement on the motion, which is very far from fully or correctly working. 

[Phil Parker]

22 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Well no. 

 

Part of the gearing is working, but not with the correct scissoring motion, and part remains static. Exactly as previously shown.

 

I'm bound to say that I think that leaves the publicity concerning working motion over-stated and misleading.

 

Nevertheless, I will be buying one as I accept the compromises with eyes wide open, but, no, no improvement on the motion, which is very far from fully or correctly working. 

 

In my video interview, there appears to be a realisation that a compromise between perfection and not having everything returned under warranty by cack-handed modellers has to be reached. It would have been better IMHO to have got there earlier, but we are where we are. 

[adb968008]

Looks quite good to me.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

In my video interview, there appears to be a realisation that a compromise between perfection and not having everything returned under warranty by cack-handed modellers has to be reached. It would have been better IMHO to have got there earlier, but we are where we are. 

 

Indeed. I am happy to accept the compromise and buy the model. There is no criticism for restricting the model to what the manufacturer felt comfortable achieving.

 

The advertising has over-claimed on the issue, which has annoyed some on this topic. I won't say the way it's been promoted is ideal, but, then again, I am learning that KR is often a little eccentic on the PR front and, again, it does not turn me agin the model.

 

People claiming or assuming that the model does represent fully working Gooch valve gear might need to be reminded that nothing there has changed, it still doesn't.

[Edwardian]

Credit to Schooner of this parish for drawing attention to this model and this video.

 

For non-Spanish speakers, I would suggest go all the way to 30.14, watch the motion of this small H0 tank engine on the rolling road and ask yourself why KR's Bellerophon does not do this?

 

 

Compare this with Phil Parker's rolling road video, which shows only about half the motion moving at all and thin not correctly. 

I gratefully adopt the Stationmaster's point that the radius rod is very long on the Haydock locomotive and that it seems over ambitious to have expected to produce a working version. In contrast, this Ibertren loco and the Fleischmann example previously posted do not have to cater with this feature. 

 

 

Here above we see it as a static, black plastic, component, and it would have been a huge challenge to make such a long spindly rod a working component, thus the Stationmaster mused:  

 

"I have long wondered if they were kidding themselves. let alone customers, when they stated that the valve gear would be fully working because it would have required some very precise, and strong, miniatiure components in order to achieve it."

 

As I say, I'll accept the compromise and buy the model, but part of me will always think it should have been possible to get closer to prototypically working motion, even if 100% functioning motion was an impossible dream. 

 

 

[adb968008]

23 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Credit to Schooner of this parish for drawing attention to this model and this video.

 

For non-Spanish speakers, I would suggest go all the way to 30.14, watch the motion of this small H0 tank engine on the rolling road and ask yourself why KR's Bellerophon does not do this?

 

 

Compare this with Phil Parker's rolling road video, which shows only about half the motion moving at all and thin not correctly. 

I gratefully adopt the Stationmaster's point that the radius rod is very long on the Haydock locomotive and that it seems over ambitious to have expected to produce a working version. In contrast, this Ibertren loco and the Fleischmann example previously posted do not have to cater with this feature. 

 

 

Here above we see it as a static, black plastic, component, and it would have been a huge challenge to make such a long spindly rod a working component, thus the Stationmaster mused:  

 

"I have long wondered if they were kidding themselves. let alone customers, when they stated that the valve gear would be fully working because it would have required some very precise, and strong, miniatiure components in order to achieve it."

 

As I say, I'll accept the compromise and buy the model, but part of me will always think it should have been possible to get closer to prototypically working motion, even if 100% functioning motion was an impossible dream. 

 

 

perhaps because the Ibertren 030 was over 200 Euros, 10 years ago, when we could buy 4-6-0’s for under £60, Where as this is in the real world £160 today ?

 

We can debate the choice of words “fully working” to the cows come home, but it wont change what it is, and its no worse than some other models out there. I for one never expected fully working to be throughout and thought their word choice be better, but the models what I would expect.

 

 

 

 

[Schooner]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I for one never expected fully working

Oh ye of little faith! It's what you were told, clearly and repeatedly, from the manufacturers from day one - it's commendable you knew their product better than them!

 

I jest of course, but the point stands: 

• a feature was promised
• that feature was not delivered
• the feature was claimed to be impossible
• the feature was shown to be not imposible
• we can perhaps now agree that the feature is possible under certain circumstance of cost and, perhaps, scale

The latter is a useful takeaway ('tho not a new one) for producers and consumers in this hobby.

 

14 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

perhaps because the Ibertren 030 was over 200 Euros, 10 years ago, when we could buy 4-6-0’s for under £60, Where as this is in the real world £160 today ?

Oh ye of little faith! Has the industry made no progress over the last ten years?!

 

Personally, I suspect that making a rod from a material able to take the required forces is not beyond the bounds of material science. I also suspect that doing so would not have pushed the final price to consumers beyond that expected for a premium product with an impressive and distinctive USP, especially one so vital to capturing the spirit of the prototype. Not easily, but not beyond the realms of possibility. So whilst there's absolutely no shame in striking the compromises KR have, I don't think we should commend them particularly either. It's fine, which is fine. 

 

On a related note, I see RMWebber @CPW said of the Ibertren 030 "It was a bit pricey but it runs like a sewing machine." After numerous returns of RTR locos, none of which impressed particularly with their performance, although most could be made acceptable with some fettling (and replacement motors and gear trains etc), I would also love to see a small goods/shunting engine that could reliably perform like one.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

perhaps because the Ibertren 030 was over 200 Euros, 10 years ago, when we could buy 4-6-0’s for under £60, Where as this is in the real world £160 today ?

 

Continental locomotives have ever been more realistically (therefore, higher) priced, no doubt for good reason.

 

What I think you seem to object to, however, is the idea that KR might should be brought to task for not making fully working valve gear for the price point of £160, assuming KR was capable of doing so at any price. Yet I do not recall anyone here saying such a thing. What people have mainly said is that to advertise a loco as having fully working Gooch/Stephenson valve gear and then to produce one that hasn’t is problematic.   

 

A poor product that is not as described is not excused from being either of those things by its relative cheapness. The claim was that the valve gear would be fully working…

 

…ah, but I see you’ve already thought of that!

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

We can debate the choice of words “fully working” to the cows come home,

 

 

No, we really can't. It's quite clear what the natural and ordinary meaning of those words is.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

but it wont change what it is,

 

 

Indeed, and no one suggested that anything would once the EPs were out. But it's a strange thing to say; would you not, say, ever critique a film on the basis that, now it's been made, there's no point?

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

and its no worse than some other models out there.

 

 

And to come!

 

 

But is that how you live your life, to judge each new thing by the standard of the least adequate thing you can find to compare it with. Indeed, if so, I weep for you.

 

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I for one never expected fully working to be throughout

 

Oh your prophetic soul!

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

and thought their word choice be better,

 

 

Like saying "work event" when you meant "party". Easily done, though.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

but the models what I would expect.

 

 

So, it’s OK that you think it’s fine because it’s cheap and you always thought it would be a bit rubbish, but it’s also fine to point out that it could have been so much more!

 

As I have said, I'll accept the compromise and buy the thing. Would I have been happier to pay more if the thing had been better, had in fact been as advertised?

 

Yes, of course. But we do not have that option.

 

Buy it, don't buy it, but don't let anyone tell you that what you're seeing as it chugs round your layout is the motion of Gooch valve gear. It's nothing like.