KR Models announced intention: Haydock Foundry 0-6-0WT 'Bellerophon'

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

So the eccentrics and rods by the rear wheels work (i;e move) and this would probably have the most movement on the prototype, while the valve rod (?) which would move back and forth on the prototype, does not. Though this piece is so long and thin, it would almost certainly affect running if it did and became distorted in any way. And to be honest, it's movement (a small back and forth of maybe a couple of mm at best) would hardly be noticeable. Probably a wise design choice (Of course KR might not fully understand the mechanics of how the real thing works - which would explain their description - but then the model is not actually steam powered).

 

But the fact they got the back third moving is still a good achievement on this small loco. 

 

 

 

If they had just shown a CAD drawing of what they intended to produce, without any comment as to what was cosmetic and what was fully working then your point would be valid. Instead they choose to shout from the roof tops how brilliant they were. They have not acheived that so why pretend that they have? A better move would have been a heads up as to where and why they had failed. They have history of putting out an idea and picking peoples brains to actually get it together. In this case the collective wisdom has not delivered. Fleishmann got close around forty years ago. I presume that things should have improved since then. 

Bernard

[t-b-g]

I am sure all those demanding motion of the valve rod have also altered their models with Walschearts gear so that the valve rods move and the gear alters depending on the speed and direction of the loco.

 

Come on folk. How many RTR models have ever had accurate and fully functional valve gear? None that I know of! Yet I don't recall anybody threatening to take manufacturers to trading standards over it before.

 

The valve gear on this loco would be tricky to make fully working for anybody in any scale. Those expressing their disappointment should perhaps show us how they would design and produce it in a way that can be mass produced at a reasonable cost.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

True enough, but the eccentrics do not move in the correct way, which I believe they do on the H0 model we were shown recently.

 

Yes, I encourage people to look at the section of the new video when the sample is on the rolling road and slow it down. As I have said, I think the two eccentric rods are separate fittings and move independently. I think I can see the angle between the two changing. However, I do not think I am seeing the characteristic scissoring movement of the prototype eccentric rods.

 

 

I am very keen to understand if other people are seeing what I am seeing. If so, perhaps they can put it in more expert terms than I have managed?

 

For anyone unsure what I am talking about, please look at the the new model video and compare it with the clip of the prototype in motion. I would say there is a clear difference in how the eccentric rods behave.  

 

Still going to but one, I think. Possibly two!

 

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Edwardian
Link added

[melmoth]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

If only there was someone out there with a wealth of experience in product lifecycle, PR and marketing with some spare time he wants to fill......

 

If not, they could ask Simon Kohler

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

I am sure all those demanding motion of the valve rod have also altered their models with Walschearts gear so that the valve rods move and the gear alters depending on the speed and direction of the loco.

 

Come on folk. How many RTR models have ever had accurate and fully functional valve gear? None that I know of! Yet I don't recall anybody threatening to take manufacturers to trading standards over it before.

 

The valve gear on this loco would be tricky to make fully working for anybody in any scale. Those expressing their disappointment should perhaps show us how they would design and produce it in a way that can be mass produced at a reasonable cost.

But Hornbach and others do not pretend that they get it 100% correct.

If you make outrageous comments you can't moan if people respond and take the Michael.

I have said before, from a position as a Quality Engineer in a world leading company, that I would not deal with them and my company would not deal with people with such an attitude. Please stop trying to defend the undefencible. Their business methods are not what I would expect from a reputable outfit. Would you buy a used car from them? Would you trust them to supply yout groceries?

Bernard

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

But Hornbach and others do not pretend that they get it 100% correct.

If you make outrageous comments you can't moan if people respond and take the Michael.

I have said before, from a position as a Quality Engineer in a world leading company, that I would not deal with them and my company would not deal with people with such an attitude. Please stop trying to defend the undefencible. Their business methods are not what I would expect from a reputable outfit. Would you buy a used car from them? Would you trust them to supply yout groceries?

Bernard

 

I may be wrong about this as I am no expert on the type of valve gear on this loco but....

 

The vast majority of steam locos produced are modelled in mid gear, which means that the valve rod has no significant movement.

 

If Bellerophon is being produced portrayed as being set in moid gear, giving the valve rod little or no motion, why are people complaining that it doesn't move?

 

If it did move, it would be wrong!

 

I am not trying to defend anything. Just pointing out that the valve gear on this model looks as though it will have the same sort of compromises that model railway valve gears have had as long as I can remember.

 

I don't recall such anguish over model locos being run forwards and backwards when they are modelled in mid gear before, so I fail to understand why it is a major problem now.

 

The internal workings of the company are another matter, about which I know nothing. I would be surprised if they sell groceries or cars though.   

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I may be wrong about this as I am no expert on the type of valve gear on this loco but....

 

The vast majority of steam locos produced are modelled in mid gear, which means that the valve rod has no significant movement.

 

If Bellerophon is being produced portrayed as being set in moid gear, giving the valve rod little or no motion, why are people complaining that it doesn't move?

 

If it did move, it would be wrong!

 

I am not trying to defend anything. Just pointing out that the valve gear on this model looks as though it will have the same sort of compromises that model railway valve gears have had as long as I can remember.

 

I don't recall such anguish over model locos being run forwards and backwards when they are modelled in mid gear before, so I fail to understand why it is a major problem now.

 

The internal workings of the company are another matter, about which I know nothing. I would be surprised if they sell groceries or cars though.   

 

You miss the point - in this case, KRM have made claims to the valvegear being fully working - it isn't!

 

CJI.

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

You miss the point - in this case, KRM have made claims to the valvegear being fully working - it isn't!

 

CJI.

 

Of course it isn't!

 

I doubt anyone outside of live steam in the very large scales is making working valve gear.....

 

 

Jason

[cctransuk]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

 

Of course it isn't!

 

I doubt anyone outside of live steam in the very large scales is making working valve gear.....

 

 

Jason

 

Jason,

 

Unless that was meant in jest - I noted the omission of any Emojis - I am sure that you know exactly what I was saying.

 

CJI.

[JSpencer]

I have watched videos of the prototype in action vs the model. There are (obviously) 2 eccentrics causing the rods attached to them to slightly scissor as they move. The model has one eccentric and a V shaped pair of rods which always retain the same V.

Could it have been modelled with two and scissor movement? Maybe, but probably fragile.

I won't defend the statements they make nor how to interpret them. In anycase they did provide, and we do have visual info on how the model works and can decide. 

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Jason,

 

Unless that was meant in jest - I noted the omission of any Emojis - I am sure that you know exactly what I was saying.

 

CJI.

 

Well, I was mocking those that keep repeating "working valve gear" and threats of legal action unless it had "working valve gear".

 

Unless it's opening and closing valves then it's not working valve gear. Maybe they should have said "moving".

 

 

We all know their communication skills aren't perfect. Why do people keep mocking them and picking out any slight mistake? 

 

Seems a bit churlish to me.

 

 

 

As for emojis. I don't like the new ones so very rarely use them. What if I use one that I don't know the meaning of that gets interpreted wrong? 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I may be wrong about this as I am no expert on the type of valve gear on this loco but....

 

The vast majority of steam locos produced are modelled in mid gear, which means that the valve rod has no significant movement.

 

If Bellerophon is being produced portrayed as being set in moid gear, giving the valve rod little or no motion, why are people complaining that it doesn't move?

 

If it did move, it would be wrong!

 

I am not trying to defend anything. Just pointing out that the valve gear on this model looks as though it will have the same sort of compromises that model railway valve gears have had as long as I can remember.

 

I don't recall such anguish over model locos being run forwards and backwards when they are modelled in mid gear before, so I fail to understand why it is a major problem now.

 

The internal workings of the company are another matter, about which I know nothing. I would be surprised if they sell groceries or cars though.   

You are absolutely right about models running along in mid gear. However, with external Walschaerts gear, the return crank, eccentric rod, expansion link, combination lever and union link all move on just about every new 00 model I’ve come across for many years. The valve gear shown on the model Bellerophon doesn’t reach the same standard. Granted the depiction of two working eccentrics is more difficult to achieve but the model doesn’t look right. I presume to guess that most of us object to the mismatch between what is claimed and what is achieved.

[GWR-fan]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

.............................................................

 

 

We all know their communication skills aren't perfect. Why do people keep mocking them and picking out any slight mistake? 

 

Seems a bit churlish to me.

 

 

 

..............................................................

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

There is usually a distinction between truth and fiction, but alas it seemingly does not apply for this manufacturer, regardless of their grasp of the English language..

[Schooner]

On 30/05/2023 at 15:35, AlfaZagato said:

 

I also now approach this thread with a bag of popcorn.

 

Words of wisdom.

 

 

[t-b-g]

I am sure there is a great debate to be had as to what constitutes "fully working" valve gear on a model loco. Unless it is a live steam model, there can be no such thing. So perhaps the description wasn't worded so well.

 

I had a look at the videos of the German locos and while they do have correct motion in the valve gear parts, they look very chunky and overscale.

 

KR seem to have gone for motion parts closer to scale size but with a flawed representation of the movement.

 

I watched the video of the EP too and at normal viewing on a big screen, all I saw were some bits wiggling around in pretty much the way I would expect them too. If I have to slow the video down and zoom in on it to see what is wrong in the movement, I think my eye would be fooled at normal viewing speed and size.

 

As always, we have a choice as to whether we accept what is offered to us and nobody is forced to part with money for a model they don't think is good enough for them.

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by t-b-g
Delete stray photo

[jjb1970]

The thread seems to have conflated views of KR Models with discussion of this particular model, which is largely because of the claims of KR and pushback against dishonest product promotion.

 

On the model, I tend to agree with t-b-g, any engineered product is a collection of compromises (any marketing proudly proclaiming that something has been made without compromise is bovine excrement). So then the question becomes what compromises to make and which aspects of a product should be prioritised. Models are no different.

 

There is a balance between detail, replicating functioning parts, usability, manufacturing capability, reliability and cost among other things. Where a producer draws that line is largely a judgement call based on an understanding of their market. There is an argument over how detailed and fine trains should be if they are to be used on a layout. If they are intended as shelf warriors for display then go all out for detail, as per the great Asian brass manufacturers, but those models are notoriously high maintenance if used on a layout. I am an enthusiast of Chinese HO models, I get the impression the factories allow the designers to indulge themselves when doing domestic models and the levels of detail and finesse can be remarkable (though it's reflected in the price, perhaps counter to what many might assume Chinese models are very expensive) but they require very careful handling (just getting them out of the box can be a nightmare) and make the issues with the AS Deltic look like a walk in the park. 

 

So in this case, I think if KR were honest there is a good argument for a hybrid part operating valve gear. I'm sure the factories could make it work with a bigger budget at the expense either of fragility and needing very careful handling (and you know the majority of those who broke such a model with heavy fingers would blame KR) or a heavy and clunky representation such as the HO model which would introduce all sorts of compromises of its own.

 

My issue with KR here is how they have sold the model, I really don't have any issue with their compromise if it had been honestly sold.

[The Stationmaster]

On 31/05/2023 at 16:47, Compound2632 said:

 

True enough, but the eccentrics do not move in the correct way, which I believe they do on the H0 model we were shown recently.

Agree.  I - and it might be the way i'm looking at it or due to other things - cannpt make out two separate eccentrics driving the eccentric rods - to me both eccentric rods appear to be driven off the same centre.  Edwardian clearly sees them differently judging by his most recent post.  So what we need is a very clear, large, photo of the way the eccentric rods are driven

 

Hopefully when somebody receives one for review they will produce the necessary photo and explain how the eccentric rods are driven.   In order for the rods to give the correct impression the two eccentrics have to be set at different angles to each other.

[The Stationmaster]

On 31/05/2023 at 18:07, t-b-g said:

I am sure all those demanding motion of the valve rod have also altered their models with Walschearts gear so that the valve rods move and the gear alters depending on the speed and direction of the loco.

 

Come on folk. How many RTR models have ever had accurate and fully functional valve gear? None that I know of! Yet I don't recall anybody threatening to take manufacturers to trading standards over it before.

 

The valve gear on this loco would be tricky to make fully working for anybody in any scale. Those expressing their disappointment should perhaps show us how they would design and produce it in a way that can be mass produced at a reasonable cost.

However I don't think any of us criticising the model are proclaiming in adverts to potential purchasers that we are offering for sale a model with fully working valvegear.  But that is what KR have advertised and have, in effect, invited people to pay in advance for a model which has that feature.  If they can't deliver then they should say so and I'm sure the vast majority of people. including me, would be understanding of that.

 

I said along way back in this thread, and have said again recently, that I couldn't see how the radius rod could be reliably made to work because it is so long.  Fleischaman didn't have to deal with that length of radius rod on their working model of outside Gooch valvegear but they did produce a model with working Goock valvegear.  So as it has been done before in something slightly smaller than 4mm scale a prospective purchaser who knows that could be said to have a reasonable expectation that as it has been promised then the valvegear will work.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 31/05/2023 at 23:05, No Decorum said:

You are absolutely right about models running along in mid gear.

 

In principle it should be possible to make the reversing gear work on Walshaerts locos using a servo, at least in larger scales (O?)   It would be difficult to fit that into OO, but if you can produce a small enough servo mechanism...

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In principle it should be possible to make the reversing gear work on Walshaerts locos using a servo, at least in larger scales (O?)   It would be difficult to fit that into OO, but if you can produce a small enough servo mechanism...

 

It's been done in 2 mm FS, so it must be hard...

 

A 9F, I think it was. There was video.

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

In principle it should be possible to make the reversing gear work on Walshaerts locos using a servo, at least in larger scales (O?)   It would be difficult to fit that into OO, but if you can produce a small enough servo mechanism...

Servos have given us remote controlled pantographs and DC controlled radiator fans, which were undreamt of until a few years ago, except, perhaps, to the manufacturers working on developing them. Perhaps someone is thinking about it now. It would be quite something to see a steam loco sitting, sizzling quietly, and then suddenly notice the gear winding into full forward. Sell us that and we’ll be demanding a rotating wheel in the cab with a jointed driver figure attached to it. 😁

[t-b-g]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However I don't think any of us criticising the model are proclaiming in adverts to potential purchasers that we are offering for sale a model with fully working valvegear.  But that is what KR have advertised and have, in effect, invited people to pay in advance for a model which has that feature.  If they can't deliver then they should say so and I'm sure the vast majority of people. including me, would be understanding of that.

 

I said along way back in this thread, and have said again recently, that I couldn't see how the radius rod could be reliably made to work because it is so long.  Fleischaman didn't have to deal with that length of radius rod on their working model of outside Gooch valvegear but they did produce a model with working Goock valvegear.  So as it has been done before in something slightly smaller than 4mm scale a prospective purchaser who knows that could be said to have a reasonable expectation that as it has been promised then the valvegear will work.

 

So if KR models say "Sorry but we couldn't get the valve gear to function fully as we had hoped" then that makes everything OK?

 

I have never got involved with paying up front for models that haven't been produced yet. It is a game for mugs if you ask me and seems to often end in tears and tantrums.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

So if KR models say "Sorry but we couldn't get the valve gear to function fully as we had hoped" then that makes everything OK?

 

I have never got involved with paying up front for models that haven't been produced yet. It is a game for mugs if you ask me and seems to often end in tears and tantrums.

At least it would  be honest and let customers know what they are getting is not what was promised.   I think they were daft to state it in the first place for reasons I've already stated but at least they could get some respect  by saying - 'sorry, we tried but couldn't manage it at teh price or whatever'

 

I don't like pre-ordering sight unseen but with some brands you can make a reasonable bet about the quality and fidelity you will get or you nite the bullet and run the risk of missing out.  And I remain quite strong in my view that if someone doesn't have sufficient faith in their product to back it with their own money I'm blowed if I'm going to let them use mine instead -but that's a very different issue.

[Amaziii]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's been done in 2 mm FS, so it must be hard...

 

A 9F, I think it was. There was video.

This one?
 

 

[Amaziii]

5 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Servos have given us remote controlled pantographs and DC controlled radiator fans, which were undreamt of until a few years ago, except, perhaps, to the manufacturers working on developing them. Perhaps someone is thinking about it now. It would be quite something to see a steam loco sitting, sizzling quietly, and then suddenly notice the gear winding into full forward. Sell us that and we’ll be demanding a rotating wheel in the cab with a jointed driver figure attached to it. 😁

That would genuinely push new models to a higher standard, and it could very well be possible with the right engineering. I love this idea, and I'm already dreaming about the day it will be a reality 🤤