Train Derails in Scotland

[Craig Watson]

I think I only ever saw a crane out on a derailment job about three times - and one of those was more a matter of 'playing' with a new one rather than anything else. Cranes cost a bomb to bring off shed and they were a slow nuisance to work with whereas jacks, especially the MFD hydraulic kit, were usually quick and simple with minimum inconvenience to everything else.

 

But I suppose back then we were more interested in trying to keep the job going

 

It's still like that now, 99% of derailments I have been to have been cleared up using the bruff road rail tool van using hydraulic jacks, then again, 99% of the derailments I've been to haven't involved a 40 ton coach hanging off the top of a retaining wall on the side of a crumbling hillside

[edcayton]

put some strong straps under it and hire a big Russian helicopter. Simples!

 

Ed

[Craig Watson]

put some strong straps under it and hire a big Russian helicopter. Simples!

 

Ed

 

Already been put forward as a suggestion on other sites, unfortunately there isn't one which has the capacity for the job!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

yep I suppose with the length it will have to reach it's going to be getting near the limit even with that capacity. I was thinking in lift capacity rather than crane weight but when I looked at it again I thought 1000 was a bit overkill. I suppose 1000 would be a lift at minimum distance so I wonder what it drops to if you have to swing that far?

You can estimate it with simple trigonometry, if you know the masses of the crane base unit, the boom, and the load; and the load location relative to the crane's ground contact patch and the bearing strength of the ground. Just make sure the CoG of the whole ensemble stays safely inside the ground contact patch...

 

Actually saw a not dissimilar lift go wrong in California; (heavy road truck down a valley side) the road surface collapsed under one outrigger when the load was well off the ground, despite the use of timbering to spread the load from the pad of the outrigger. The crane tilted very slowly for a couple of seconds, the driver jumped off, and then it all happened very fast indeed...

[Oldddudders]

Sorry but I have to take exception to the above, you have to really have been on site or at least taken part in the various telephone conference calls to know exactly what was discussed and looked at as options for recovering the vehicle, believe me every option was looked at and discussed at length, due to the expert advice recieved on the fragile nature of the surrounding hillside and the location the road crane option taken was the only feasible one.

 

Theres no real point in speculating further on how it will be done, the crane is on site and assembled.

I'm sorry you take exception. I intend no disrespect to any party involved in a most difficult situation. Again, I would refer you to my original post which simply stated that no mention had been made "in this thread" of possible alternatives, and I proposed that there were and are other methods. If they have been considered and the geotechnics guy has made certain stipulations which rule them out, then I'm sure the best is being done. Of course we are not privy to the realtime deliberations of those responsible, unless these become public knowledge, and nor should we be. I have long held - and stated - that those running the industry now have a most difficult job because there are far fewer of them, and many have had to learn things much more rapidly than in the past. Implying that skills have been lost is hardly being critical of those who have had no opportunity to learn them - or, at least, it was certainly never intended to be so. Sorry.

[Craig Watson]

Ian,

 

No need to apologise, the way I read it was that as no mention of alternative methods had been made in this thread then the assumption seemed to be that they hadn't been considered at ground level either.

 

Everyone knows that a lot of experience was lost upon privatisation, as someone who worked under BR I see it myself everyday, however there is still a lot of "know how" in the industry, I have a high regard for a lot of my colleagues who have been here a lot longer than I have and a few in particular have been working on this derailment since Sunday night, I know that for a few of some of the most experienced it has been the trickiest they've had to deal with purely due to the location and circumstance.

 

Cheers

 

Craig

[beast66606]

Lets hope a successful and more importantly safe outcome for all involved is the result - however it's done ...

[edcayton]

Purely out of interest, and meaning no disrespect to anyone here, I've been trawling the web as I do at times, and it appears that a Russian Mil V-12 twin "side-by-side" rotor helicopter lifted 44205kg on 6 Aug 1969, and that both prototypes still exist.

SO, ask Ivan(whist he is looking for Kestrel) to find one or both of these and send it over. Bob's yer uncle!

 

Ed

[PaulRhB]

One of the Kirov cranes nearly toppled a few years back as the ground gave way beneath it's outrigger, turned out there was a large pocket of ash under the ballast that acted like quicksand under the weight.

My experience of incidents such as this is on the modern railway is that it still brings out the best in the staff. Ok we now use road cranes a lot but they are very flexible compared to a railway crane restricted by all the lineside equipment and ground structure as well. As Craig and others mention the bruff crews are highly experienced and quick. When it comes to clearing objects off the line there's nothing quite like watching the Pway lads put their considerable knowledge and strength to the problem. Seen a couple of cars that couldn't be reached quickly by cranes moved to a safe place like they were nothing.

The drivers and fitters from our depot are impressed by the strength of the coupling that's holding the 156 up as they can relate to that on their units.

I don't think nanny state really comes into this but the experience of what can go wrong has lead to more careful planning of recovery to make sure it is done in one attempt rather than wasting money and time bringing in expensive equipment that won't do the job. RAIB insisting on preservation of the scene is twofold, first learning to avoid it again which we all understand and secondly to protect the railway from the ridiculous litiginous society that has developed.

I think it's good to see the coordination between the local authority and the railway in putting up with the road closure to allow the recovery in the best way.

[admiles]

Although obviously the safety of the crew, passengers and recovery teams is paramount I rather

hope that the 156 can be brought out and repaired for re-use. I think I'm right in saying the

class is intact with all the vehicles still in service which considering they're getting on

for 25 years old now is a reasonable achievement.

 

I bit silly I know but I've always hated to see wrecked trains scrapped.

[Talltim]

Easy, big hand from the sky!

Oh, its the real thing

[The Stationmaster]

There is nothing to anchor it to, never mind take the force of winching it back up, the whole hillside is in such a fragile state as it is, these things were all thought out as solutions, one of the first specialists on site on Monday morning was a geological technician, securing anything to the surrounding landscape was a no no.

 

Fair point Craig - although don't forget that the usual anchor got winching and taking load was the track and not local scenic features as it tended to be more stable than anything else.

 

But the point both Ian and I were making was the apparent assumption on here (and obviously not necessarily on site) that if something's off or down the bank or whatever that you automatically send for a crane whereas in actual fact sending for a crane was normally right at the very end of the queue and something only considered as the last resort (indeed in some places it was regarded as a major crime to even call out the vans and I have known people - not me - get major rollickings for doing so).

[jamie92208]

Fair point Craig - although don't forget that the usual anchor got winching and taking load was the track and not local scenic features as it tended to be more stable than anything else.

 

But the point both Ian and I were making was the apparent assumption on here (and obviously not necessarily on site) that if something's off or down the bank or whatever that you automatically send for a crane whereas in actual fact sending for a crane was normally right at the very end of the queue and something only considered as the last resort (indeed in some places it was regarded as a major crime to even call out the vans and I have known people - not me - get major rollickings for doing so).

 

In the US most rerailing is done by a private company, Hulcher I think, mainly using bulldozers with side mounted sheer leg style winches. It's interesting that it is almost seen as bad form to do things this way in Britain.

 

Jamie

[scottishlocos]

Just read that the plan is to lift the derailed unit onto a low loader

and the other unit will be collected by 37676

[birdseyecircus]

There are some pictures on http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/ of the unit taken from the track, which show a rock under the unit and the position the train is in. Just scroll down the page a little.

 

Paul

[Craig Watson]

There are some pictures on http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/ of the unit taken from the track, which show a rock under the unit and the position the train is in. Just scroll down the page a little.

 

Paul

 

There was a similar picture on the Sky website on Monday, taken by one of the passengers as the train was being evacuated.

 

I have quite a few taken on site a few hours after it happened, for obvious reasons I can't publish them at the minute but the only difference with the one in the link is that mine were taken in the dark!

[Craig Watson]

Just read that the plan is to lift the derailed unit onto a low loader

and the other unit will be collected by 37676

 

Both coaches supposedly going to Glasgow works for assessment according to reports elsewhere on the net.

 

The crane on site is supposedly this beast http://www.ainscough.co.uk/crane-hire-specs/2010/3%20Liebherr%20LTM%2011000%20DS.pdf

[The Stationmaster]

In the US most rerailing is done by a private company, Hulcher I think, mainly using bulldozers with side mounted sheer leg style winches. It's interesting that it is almost seen as bad form to do things this way in Britain.

 

Jamie

 

Big front bucket loaders are also excellent rerailing tools but I'm not saying who has used them as they can cause damage (the people concerned were rerailing their own wagons as it happens). Another good tool was a very simple device called a Bullwinch which NCB blokes seemed to have a knack with - I once watched two men rerail 4x16ton Mins with one of those, took 'em about 10 minutes (including stopping for tea).

[Craig Watson]

Big front bucket loaders are also excellent rerailing tools but I'm not saying who has used them as they can cause damage (the people concerned were rerailing their own wagons as it happens). Another good tool was a very simple device called a Bullwinch which NCB blokes seemed to have a knack with - I once watched two men rerail 4x16ton Mins with one of those, took 'em about 10 minutes (including stopping for tea).

 

I once saw a rudd wagon which had came off on one axle being rerailled using a road rail excavator which just caught the end of the wagon in it's grab bucket and basically plonked it back on the track, I won't say where but it was in an engineering job around nine years ago, questions were asked at the time as to the recovery engineer's method statement for rerailing the vehicle (railtrack loved method statements) as none of the generic ones covered it, so it was back to the bruff to hastily write one up!

 

We went through a spell of rudd/clam type wagon derailments on relay jobs in the early 2000's in our area, mostly on sites under the control of a certain track relaying company who went out of business recently

[Talltim]

I'm always surprised when I read about Guilford Rail System/Pan-Am in the US sending in the 'Big Hook' when they are such a company for cutting costs by reducing infrastructure so much.

[Craig Watson]

In the US most rerailing is done by a private company, Hulcher I think, mainly using bulldozers with side mounted sheer leg style winches. It's interesting that it is almost seen as bad form to do things this way in Britain.

 

Jamie

 

In the UK it's DB Schenker who carry out most if not all rerailing jobs, usually using the SRS road railer trucks (still called "the bruff" by most of us) and their jacking equipment, I have loads of pics of the equipment in use, I'll try and dig some out in the morning.

 

Craig

[PaulRhB]

I think the advantage in the US with Hulcher is they don't have to clear all the trains stacked up behind to get a rail crane through. in the UK a 1500ft long freight can be pulled back to a suitable siding if really required but I wouldn't want to have to pull back several 5000ft plus trains. Hulcher Deals with some massive wrecks and specialise in heavy lifts and clearance and covers virtually all of the US so I suppose there's enough business to justify a fairly big ( in UK terms ), dedicated fleet of machines and transporters as I understand they have a few strategically placed depots. They still use jacks and locos to pull back minor derailments using blocks to guide the wheels.

[Mr Brunel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8736322.stm

I think this is the aforementioned train, but it's not clear.

[Moo]

http://news.bbc.co.u...and/8736322.stm

I think this is the aforementioned train, but it's not clear.

 

Certainly would appear to be..............and

 

Wow!

 

Bet the crane driver needed b@lls of steel for that one!!

 

Seemed at such a precarious angle at quite a height and just dropped down onto the road below before being properly recoved on a loader methinks!!!!

 

At least it's sorted now!

[Edwin_m]

Yes, that crane is pretty awesome.

 

This derailment isn't on the list of RAIB investigations. Is it just missing in error or have they chosen not to investigate it? Seems a little odd considering how much worse it could have been, and that it happened in spite of the system to detect rockfalls on this section.