Train Derails in Scotland

[Gwiwer]

There would be limitations on using a road crane in that spot. And that's assuming the derailed coach can even be lifted and swung clear of the trees. If the centre coupler is material in holding it where it is then cutting that may not be an option either. My guess at this stage would be that a containment fence of some kind would be built to prevent the derailed coach falling any further, blocks and tackle erected on the uphill side to stay and guide it and the unit will be dragged inch by inch backwards.

 

If the damage assessment determines the leading coach is beyond repair then it can be removed in little pieces by road or rail wagon.

[PaulRhB]

Perhaps a rail mounted crane will be the best option, providing

the jib does not have to swing out top far....

 

Off topic slightly but how did the cl66 at Carrbridge end up being recovered?

according to the info we've heard a rail crane isn't viable as insufficient room for outriggers and they are assessing whether the road is strong enough. The old block and tackle system might be the only way if the coach is worth saving.

The 66 was recovered by a road crane on a specially cleared pad.

[Guest stuartp]

Apart from anything else a rail crane would need to be at the Oban end, assuming it could even reach far enough - it's not exactly an end-on lift from what I can see in the various pics. Once upon a time I suspect they'd have burned through the coupling and collected the scrap at the bottom of the hill but the ROSCO might have something to say about that ! Mind you, if the recovery costs start to get too high ...

[Gwiwer]

The coach will need to be recovered whether it is for repair or scrap. In some situations block and tackle is still the best option. This can be used whether or not the coach is fit for repair. The all-up weight of a suitable crane with a 38 tonne coach hoisted would be well over 100 tonnes. I'm sure they will be looking to see what sort of loads were considered safe when Cruachan power station was built as that would all have come along the same road.

[Craig Watson]

The coach will need to be recovered whether it is for repair or scrap. In some situations block and tackle is still the best option. This can be used whether or not the coach is fit for repair. The all-up weight of a suitable crane with a 38 tonne coach hoisted would be well over 100 tonnes. I'm sure they will be looking to see what sort of loads were considered safe when Cruachan power station was built as that would all have come along the same road.

 

The affected section of road (directly below the location of the accident) is on the Oban side of the power station, the A85 is carried on stilts as a bridge along the side of the loch from just after the entrance to the power station visitor centre car park, from speaking to local members of staff on site yesterday the bridge section of the road was completed around 1972, it wouldn't have carried materials used during the construction of the power station as it was constructed from 1959-65.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

1000 ton road crane due on site today and hoping to do lifts by Friday. Mentions that they are going to have to carefully spread the load on the road due to the stilts.

[Ben Alder]

1000 ton road crane due on site today and hoping to do lifts by Friday. Mentions that they are going to have to carefully spread the load on the road due to the stilts.

 

 

1000 ton ? there'll have to be some careful weight spreading going on here

[PaulRhB]

1000 ton ? there'll have to be some careful weight spreading going on here

 

 

Yeah on second thoughts they have made a bit of a typo there, I just quoted the info as we had it, unless the Scotrail 156's have been fitted with another 800tons of aircon and wifi of course

[Scottish Modeller]

Yeah on second thoughts they have made a bit of a typo there, I just quoted the info as we had it, unless the Scotrail 156's have been fitted with another 800tons of aircon and wifi of course

Hi all,

 

I think you will find it is a crane with a lifting capacity of 1000 tons.

 

Looking at the photos and the map - even with that capacity it's not going to be an easy task.

 

Thanks

[peach james]

I'd take a wild guess that it is a "1000 ton" crane- as in 1000 ton meters- .

 

Trees can and do manage supprisingly large loads from moving- we recovered a 26 000 lb excavator from down a slope that is somewhere around 70% slope- all that was holding it was the trees.

 

James

[PaulRhB]

Looking at the photos and the map - even with that capacity it's not going to be an easy task.

yep I suppose with the length it will have to reach it's going to be getting near the limit even with that capacity. I was thinking in lift capacity rather than crane weight but when I looked at it again I thought 1000 was a bit overkill. I suppose 1000 would be a lift at minimum distance so I wonder what it drops to if you have to swing that far?

[Oldddudders]

In such a challenging environment, why has no-one mentioned timbers, jacks and airbags? Are they now old hat? or just demeaningly slow for C21 engineers?

[The Stationmaster]

In such a challenging environment, why has no-one mentioned timbers, jacks and airbags? Are they now old hat? or just demeaningly slow for C21 engineers?

 

I too am puzzled that solutions like that seem to be ignored. Very often the simplest way of getting stuff back on the road is the best and things such as you mention plus winching can be remarkably effective in the most awkward of situations.

 

Presumably those things have been forgotten in an era when railway experience and simple derailment expertise is being increasingly lost or forgotten?

[Gwiwer]

I suspect that given the position of the leading coach, the steep bank it is perched on and the very real risk of further slippage that it has been deemed to be less safe to use blocks / airbags than to use the crane. It's called risk mitigation. Or Nanny State.

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect that given the position of the leading coach, the steep bank it is perched on and the very real risk of further slippage that it has been deemed to be less safe to use blocks / airbags than to use the crane. It's called risk mitigation. Or Nanny State.

 

But then slinging it for a crane is going to be just as dangerous as slinging it to anchor it prior to getting it back up the hill by winching or whatever. I still suspect that things other than a whopping great crane just don't enter their heads - and no doubt of course nowadays the insurers carry the costs so doing it the most expensive way no longer enters the equation.

[Oldddudders]

I still suspect that things other than a whopping great crane just don't enter their heads - and no doubt of course nowadays the insurers carry the costs so doing it the most expensive way no longer enters the equation.[/i]

No argument with the cynical nature of such calculations today! I would expect roping of the vehicle to the trees already supporting it, plus a few others, then airbags to lift and support while the coupling is burnt through. Then traverse jacks and timbers against the same trees, to inch it back towards the rails, probably with a loco hawsered to the coach to add directional stability. Slowly, slowly catchee monkey! In my day the tool vans were more often called to site than the crane.

[The Stationmaster]

No argument with the cynical nature of such calculations today! I would expect roping of the vehicle to the trees already supporting it, plus a few others, then airbags to lift and support while the coupling is burnt through. Then traverse jacks and timbers against the same trees, to inch it back towards the rails, probably with a loco hawsered to the coach to add directional stability. Slowly, slowly catchee monkey! In my day the tool vans were more often called to site than the crane.

 

I think I only ever saw a crane out on a derailment job about three times - and one of those was more a matter of 'playing' with a new one rather than anything else. Cranes cost a bomb to bring off shed and they were a slow nuisance to work with whereas jacks, especially the MFD hydraulic kit, were usually quick and simple with minimum inconvenience to everything else.

 

But I suppose back then we were more interested in trying to keep the job going

[Jamie]

With no disrespect meant to our professional railwaymen, whose opinions I hold in high regard, I'd still think the best people to make the decision are those on site with full knowledge and understanding of the vehicle condition, position and surrounding topography and geology.

 

The 'nanny state' is often cited in cases of risk aversion, but the truth is that it's a function of how society views work-related deaths and injuries. It's just no longer socially acceptable that a proportion of the workforce fail to make it home from work. We can see the changes in how society values life, and risk thereto, in everything from the workplace to automotive design - if we didn't care, then NCAP would be wasting their time. For instance.

 

But then again, I'm a C21 Engineer.

[Oldddudders]

With no disrespect meant to our professional railwaymen, whose opinions I hold in high regard, I'd still think the best people to make the decision are those on site with full knowledge and understanding of the vehicle condition, position and surrounding topography and geology.

 

The 'nanny state' is often cited in cases of risk aversion, but the truth is that it's a function of how society views work-related deaths and injuries. It's just no longer socially acceptable that a proportion of the workforce fail to make it home from work. We can see the changes in how society values life, and risk, in everything from the workplace to automotive design - if we didn't care, then NCAP would be wasting their time. For instance.

 

But then again, I'm a C21 Engineer.

No problem with taking greater care of the workforce in this or any other industry - life must never again be regarded as cheap in time of peace. I think what Mike and I seem to be agreed upon is that old skills, in this and probably many other areas, have been lost in Rail Privatisation. They were seen as part of the fat that needed to be sliced off to get the product attractive to the marketplace. BR was not above doing that, of course, and in the field of signal maintenance they came precious close on Southern Region to having no-one who knew how mechanical locking worked on the ground - and that was more than 20 years ago. We simply think that wise old heads would have been competent to approach the present problem in a less macho way, with little risk to staff, but a great deal less expense and, possibly, less damage to the ROSCO's asset.

 

As for NCAP, I have no hesitation in saying that the structural integrity of my wife's 2004 Nissan Micra - made in the UK! - saved her life in the car crash a couple of years ago, despite an unavoidable impact at probably nearly 50 mph. She still uses a wheelchair, and lots of colourful Anglo-Saxon expressions, but apart from her right knee, everything else (at least 25 fractures) has pretty well mended. Even a decade ago, I'd have been widowed.

[Guest stuartp]

Pic from the Oban Times which might help explain why jacks, packing and airbags aren't an option. There's an awful lot of nothingness under the right hand end of the vehicle.

 

http://www.obantimes.../_DSC0073_1.JPG

[Jamie]

I don't dispute your comment Olddudders, but whether old-school or new-school, but they'd be in full knowledge of the situation encountered.

 

I maintain that criticisms of the Engineer's proposed methods based only on the few news photos/videos will be somewhat poorly justified. We've had everything from shallow lochs to the bridge load capacity postulated here.

 

Stuart's photo link just underlines what they're faced with.

[Gwiwer]

I understood the comment to be more general in terms of the abandonment of older methods of recovery. That notwithstanding, and with the greatest respect for those professionals involved in recovery, it appears that it might also have been possible to use blocks and tackle anchored to the opposite rock cutting - if that were to be sound and secure bearing in mind the rockfall which caused the derailment - and to slowly drag the coach back towards Glasgow.

 

I myself have a small professional involvement in heavy and at times very awkward recovery. I work in motor insurance. There are times when we are required to arrange recovery of trucks or other large vehicles which are in lakes, down mountain sides or off bridges. Cranes and tow trucks are not always the answer; the ability to think outside the square is what achieves results.

[Oldddudders]

Pic from the Oban Times which might help explain why jacks, packing and airbags aren't an option. There's an awful lot of nothingness under the right hand end of the vehicle.

 

http://www.obantimes.../_DSC0073_1.JPG

Certainly the clearest pic I've yet seen. Presumably then it is only the coupling that is holding the intermediate end near the track. On the other hand, the trees at the leading end seem to be holding quite well, and there appears to be a fair forest across the line, so roping and securing might be achieved. My original point still stands - this thread made no observation of any scope beyond a crane for getting the vehicle back on or near the track, but there was much informed muttering about how hard that would be to do, implying that alternatives might be needed - yet none was really proposed beyond sacrificing the vehicle. It is in those opportunities for lateral thinking & a broad range of skills that I feel the industry has lost some value.

[Craig Watson]

But then slinging it for a crane is going to be just as dangerous as slinging it to anchor it prior to getting it back up the hill by winching or whatever. I still suspect that things other than a whopping great crane just don't enter their heads - and no doubt of course nowadays the insurers carry the costs so doing it the most expensive way no longer enters the equation.

 

There is nothing to anchor it to, never mind take the force of winching it back up, the whole hillside is in such a fragile state as it is, these things were all thought out as solutions, one of the first specialists on site on Monday morning was a geological technician, securing anything to the surrounding landscape was a no no.

[Craig Watson]

Certainly the clearest pic I've yet seen. Presumably then it is only the coupling that is holding the intermediate end near the track. On the other hand, the trees at the leading end seem to be holding quite well, and there appears to be a fair forest across the line, so roping and securing might be achieved. My original point still stands - this thread made no observation of any scope beyond a crane for getting the vehicle back on or near the track, but there was much informed muttering about how hard that would be to do, implying that alternatives might be needed - yet none was really proposed beyond sacrificing the vehicle. It is in those opportunities for lateral thinking & a broad range of skills that I feel the industry has lost some value.

 

Sorry but I have to take exception to the above, you have to really have been on site or at least taken part in the various telephone conference calls to know exactly what was discussed and looked at as options for recovering the vehicle, believe me every option was looked at and discussed at length, due to the expert advice recieved on the fragile nature of the surrounding hillside and the location the road crane option taken was the only feasible one.

 

Theres no real point in speculating further on how it will be done, the crane is on site and assembled.