CKPR's 7mm pre-grouping modelling

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

I have a passing interest in pre-grouping, mostly because my friend is quite passionate about the North British Railway. 

 

So you built him a Caledonian wagon?

 

Looking at the HMRS photos of Caledonian pig iron wagons, 16 tons does appear to be the usual capacity, although they're all 1-plank wagons, not 3-plank. It's a particularly dense load. 

 

 

[brossard]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So you built him a Caledonian wagon?

 

Looking at the HMRS photos of Caledonian pig iron wagons, 16 tons does appear to be the usual capacity, although they're all 1-plank wagons, not 3-plank. It's a particularly dense load. 

 

 

 

I didn't build the original "model", he bought it second hand.  My job was to take the wagons in hand, refurbish brakes, add proper working buffers, working couplings and repaint, reletter as needed.  I told him quite sternly that he mustn't buy second hand wagons since they are usually quite badly done and a lot of work to get closer to being right.

 

John

[Dava]

4 hours ago, CKPR said:

https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/51/Derwent.htm

 

Have a look at the photograph of the DVR's Sentinel at York Layerthorpe and tell me this isn't a picture of an 'O' gauge model railway.

Here is the DVLR Sentinel on my model based on the DVLR, Coney Hill, 

Dava

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, brossard said:

 

I didn't build the original "model", he bought it second hand.  My job was to take the wagons in hand, refurbish brakes, add proper working buffers, working couplings and repaint, reletter as needed.  I told him quite sternly that he mustn't buy second hand wagons since they are usually quite badly done and a lot of work to get closer to being right.

 

John

 

Ah well, he's obviously a broad-minded fellow, buying a Caledonian wagon.

[brossard]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah well, he's obviously a broad-minded fellow, buying a Caledonian wagon.

 

Quite, since he's a NBR fan.  Still, I think he would go for anything Scottish.  There's a G&SW wagon in the mix too.

 

John

[CKPR]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

There's a G&SW wagon in the mix too.

 

[CKPR]

2 hours ago, Dava said:

Here is the DVLR Sentinel on my model based on the DVLR, Coney Hill, 

Dava

 

 

Thank you for sharing this  as it's a really nice model and exactly the sort of ambience I'm aiming for in my 'O' gauge modelling.

[Caley Jim]

3 hours ago, airnimal said:

I love the pre-grouping wagons but the load capacity on the Cal Rly open looks very high at 16 tons ?

I am guessing that it should be 6 tons. 

Sorry for being a pain. 

It looks like it's a Dia 15 8T dropside wagon.  It's certainly not a pig iron wagon as they were mostly 2 plank, with the exception of the last design to Dia 110, which was single plank and rated at 16T as per the photo to which you linked.

 

Jim 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Caley Jim

[corneliuslundie]

Shall I be thrown out of the pre-grouping section for admitting that I have one NBR wagon for my south Wales pregrouping layout? And John Hooper's book.

Jonathan

[Regularity]

It’s still pre-grouping…

 

The NBR had something like the fifth largest wagon fleet, and served the “central belt” in Scotland (in fierce competition with the CR) so their wagons could turn up anywhere and everywhere.

[Compound2632]

According to data presented in the Summer 2021 issue of the Midland Railway Society Journal, the North British reported 42,376 wagons at 31 Dec 1889 and 59,972 at 31 Dec 1921, while the figures for the Caledonian were 45,475 and 53,326 respectively. Of the English railways, only the North Eastern, Midland, Great Western, and London and North Western had more (the Great Western was in 7th place in 1889).

 

These numbers need some interpretation since the proportion of each company's mineral traffic conveyed in its own wagons vs. private owner wagons has to be taken into account. For all the railways mentioned, mineral traffic outweighed merchandise traffic by a factor of from 3:1 up to 5:1. The North Eastern had the largest mineral traffic, almost entirely conveyed in the company's own wagons, so unsurprisingly it had the largest wagon fleet. The Great Central relied heavily on PO wagons, so although its annual mineral tonnage was half-way between that of the NBR an CR, its wagon fleet was only about two-thirds that of the NBR. 

 

My understanding is that mineral wagon operation in Scotland was rather different to England, in that a large proportion of "PO" wagons were in fact company-owned wagons on hire to the collieries, rather than purchased or on hire from the trade. "Thirling" was the term for this, I gather. So, do those totals for the NBR and CR include thirled wagons?

Edited August 23, 2021 by Compound2632
ratios clarified

[Caley Jim]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

My understanding is that mineral wagon operation in Scotland was rather different to England, in that a large proportion of "PO" wagons were in fact company-owned wagons on hire to the collieries, rather than purchased or on hire from the trade. "Thirling" was the term for this, I gather. So, do those totals for the NBR and CR include thirled wagons?

Mike Williams only makes passing mention of thirling in his book, but as these wagons were owned by the railway company they would be part of the companies capital stock, so yes, I believe they would be included in these figures.  There was at least one instance of the CR buying the entire fleet, 400 wagons, from Dunn Brothers.  These had been built by Hurst Nelson to basically the CR Dia 22 dimensions.  They could be identified by the fact that the outer layer of planks on the cupboard doors were vertical ( which was HN's practice), while CR built wagons had them horizontal in line with those on the bodyside.  They also had 5 planks instead of 4 and NB pattern buffers, along with some other detail differences.

 

Jim

[Northroader]

Have you clocked the four wheelers on here? http://www.jimmcgeown.com/0 Gauge Coaches.html, might work better for you than a bogie push pull, particularly on the NSR.

 

[Edwardian]

Generic 6-wheel coaches, now there's an idea .....

[Annie]

I like those printed card coach interior kits.  They look to be very useful.

[CKPR]

I'm going to scratch-build the ex-NER 4w coaches to start with  - practice for the autocoach ! The David Jenkinson carriage modelling book duly arrived and I read it cover to cover a few weeks ago whilst holed up in south west Wales in the caravan with a very poorly Mrs-CKPR-to-be. I've got lots of plasticard, a new cutting mat and plenty of 10a scalpel blades in stock so I'm all ready to get cracking on some 7mm coach building. As you may have sussed, my interest in the North Sunderland is long-standing and I actually built a lot of the post-war rolling stock as my initial EM project  -  the first Nu-cast 'Y7' kit was bought from The Model Shop in Blenheim St. in Newcastle-upon-Tyne when I was in my final year at Durham. I therefore have previous when comes to the ex-NER coaches as they were my first scratch-builds c.1985-86.

Edited August 26, 2021 by CKPR

[Northroader]

Yes, but, I said look at the four wheelers, then click on “more information” and “gallery” that goes with each specimen.

James, Jim has been producing these “generic” 0 gauge six wheelers when Hattons bum was no bigger than a shirt button.

[CKPR]

Ah, I see what you mean  - the ex-NER coaches are still in the 7mm range ! I either must have completely overlooked them when I last looked at the Connoisseur website a few weeks ago or it's been updated since then  - the former is more likely. At £64 a pop, they are rather out of my price range though...the 'BTP' kit has well and truly emptied the coffers and I'm still trying to sell some more of the US brass* to pay for the Y7.I've been able to make economies in other departments and  luckily for me, hand-made cooper-clad sleeper  / Marcway 'O' gauge point work is very cheap on the Bay of Fleas, it being more suitable for my purposes than Peco's very pricey points.

 

*Just sold another engine this afternoon so that's the books balanced for the Y7.

Edited August 25, 2021 by CKPR

[ian@stenochs]

On 23/08/2021 at 10:00, Compound2632 said:

. 

 

My understanding is that mineral wagon operation in Scotland was rather different to England, in that a large proportion of "PO" wagons were in fact company-owned wagons on hire to the collieries, rather than purchased or on hire from the trade. "Thirling" was the term for this, I gather. So, do those totals for the NBR and CR include thirled wagons?

The G&SWR was more like the NER and carried most of its mineral traffic in company wagons.  By so doing it had better control of the maintenance of the wagons, Private Owners were not always diligent in looking after their vehicles.  There were financial benefits too in that the company imposed strict demurrage terms charging whenever customers took too long to empty and return the wagon to traffic.  This did cause some disputes which resulted in legal action on more than one occasion.
Unlike the CR & NB virtually all of the G&SWR mineral wagons had doors at both ends.  As the vast bulk of the coal went for export by sea this simplified unloading as wagons always arrived at the crane with a door at the correct end for tipping.

Ian.

[ian@stenochs]

6 hours ago, CKPR said:

I'm going to scratch-build the ex-NER 4w coaches to start with  - practice for the autocoach ! The David Jenkinson carriage modelling book duly arrived and I read it cover to cover a few weeks whilst holed up in south west Wales in the caravan with a very poorly Mrs-CKPR-to-be. I've got lots of plasticard, a new cutting mat and  lots of 10a scalpel blades in stock so I'm all ready to get cracking on some 7mm coach building. As you may have sussed, my interest in the North Sunderland is long-standing and I actually built a lot of the post-war rolling stock as my first EM project (the first Nu-cast 'Y7' kit was bought from The Model Shop in Blenheim St. in Newcastle-upon-Tyne when I was in my final year at Durham). I therefore have previous when comes to the ex-NER coaches as they were my first scratch-builds c.1985-86.

I have built a few plastikard coaches while on holiday in our caravan, there is a small toolkit and the odd drawing permanently stored in a locker yet.  However a word of warning!  Plastikard cuttings and swarf gets everywhere and sticks by magnetic attraction.  My wife is VERY understanding but she does get a bit annoyed if I don’t clean up thoroughly.

 

Ian.

[CKPR]

42 minutes ago, ian@stenochs said:

she does get a bit annoyed if I don’t clean up thoroughly.

Same in our house with the added 'But why did you make a mess in the first place ?!'* See also 'Why does the kitchen floor get dirty ?!' (Ermm, because we live in the countryside alongside a muddy lane and surrounded by farms & fields ?)

 

*CKPR is 58 years old in six weeks time...

Edited August 25, 2021 by CKPR

[Edwardian]

Thing about the countryside, the main thing to bear in mind about the countryside, is that it's more or less covered in sh1t.

[CKPR]

Just to let you that I'm still working away on the old O gauge stuff and stocking up on kits and materials. There's now a Connoisseur H2 (J79) kit and an Alphagraphix 'Lady Armstrong' kit in stock along with various Slaters and ABS wagon kits. To my shame, I haven't started any scratch builds in the larger scale as yet, not least because I keep forgetting to buy  yer actual 7mm scale rule (how on earth do you work out something like 5 3/4" in 1:43?!). When I do, expect some posts relating to building NBR brake vans and NER 4w coaches... 

Edited April 25, 2022 by CKPR

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, CKPR said:

how on earth do you work out some like 5 3/4" in 1:43

 

Yes, 7mm scale is a bit of a pain from that point of view. The Americans are much more sensible with 1/4 inch / 1:48. A scale rule is very helpful, but for things like a scratch built wagon, I use a spreadsheet that I can put all the dimensions I need into as real-world feet and inches, and it converts to millimetres and (useful for materials thicknesses, etc.) thousandths of an inch.

 

I've attached a sample, if that's useful.

 

Measurements converted to 7mm scale.xlsx

 

Nick.

[CKPR]

Thank you, that is exactly what I needed - for some reason, the NBR used very odd planking sizes that confounded me when I tried to mark out the NBR brake van. Being part Scots, I'm allowed to make the observation that presumably the sub-6" planking was to save the NBR the odd bawbee or two per van... 

Edited April 25, 2022 by CKPR