Footage of LNWR “Improved Precedent” (I think) along with another engine.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hello all,

 

This is one of the famed Mitchell & Kenyon silent films from the early 1900s, and I spotted what is probably a LNWR “Improved Precedent” in the background. Skip to around 2:31.

 

 

 

Douglas

Edited June 8, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works

[J. S. Bach]

At 0:30 the guy in the center with the white hat, I can just picture him on the bridge of the TITANIC saying "Westward ho!".

[kevinlms]

2nd loco looks like a 2-4-0T 'Chopper Tank'.

 

The added audio is rather spoilt with the American soundtrack, with the bell from a station stop!

[Tom Burnham]

"Oh my Hornby and my Barlow long ago" - not the model train maker though.

[sncf231e]

9 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

Hello all,

 

 probably a LNWR “Improved Precedent” in the background. 

 

 

 

Douglas

Here is my LNWR Precedent in the foreground:

 

Regards

Fred

[A Murphy]

Fascinating film. Does anyone have any idea where this is? Could it be Old Trafford? 

[LNER4479]

12 minutes ago, A Murphy said:

Does anyone have any idea where this is? Could it be Old Trafford? 

I think it is. Check out the shot of the pavilion clock tower 0:18 - 0:21 with the image in this press item:

https://ifamagazine.com/article/brown-shipley-extends-lancashire-cricket-partnership-until-2021/

 

In which case, it's the Manchester-Altrincham line, the M,SJ&AR. Better known in its electrified form from 1931; however, we're seeing it here in its steam days. According to Wikipedia:

The MSJ&AR owned its own coaches, but the haulage was provided by locomotives belonging to both the L&NWR and MS&LR companies.

So that 'fits' (although I'm no expert on MSJ&AR turn-of-the-century coaching stock!). I also think I'm right in saying that it was a four track railway in this area, which would explain the presence of the two trains heading in the same direction.

 

Great find!

 

[melmerby]

20 minutes ago, A Murphy said:

Fascinating film. Does anyone have any idea where this is? Could it be Old Trafford? 

[kevinlms]

35 minutes ago, melmerby said:

With both trains passing in front of the signal box, meaning it must be at the far side.

[LNER4479]

I think that's also a 'fit' Kevin - there's an 'S.B.' indicated on the map posted by Melmerby which is indeed on the far side.

 

'Cricket Ground Station' was subsequently renamed as 'Warwick Road' but is now 'Old Trafford' on Manchester's Metrolink. The first train would of course have been referred to by dear old Brian Johnson as the 'Chester Flyer'!

[kevinlms]

12 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I think that's also a 'fit' Kevin - there's an 'S.B.' indicated on the map posted by Melmerby which is indeed on the far side.

 

'Cricket Ground Station' was subsequently renamed as 'Warwick Road' but is now 'Old Trafford' on Manchester's Metrolink. The first train would of course have been referred to by dear old Brian Johnson as the 'Chester Flyer'!

Yes, I was suggesting it was confirmation.

It is a great find by Douglas, from a film which from it's subject/title has nothing whatsoever to do with LNWR train services.

How much obscure film footage is needed to watch to find similar items? I ain't volunteering!

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Yes, I was suggesting it was confirmation.

It is a great find by Douglas, from a film which from it's subject/title has nothing whatsoever to do with LNWR train services.

How much obscure film footage is needed to watch to find similar items? I ain't volunteering!

 

Great find? It's one of the most famous scenes of early cricket!

 

I can even give you the date 11th July 1901. It's the Arthur Mold v Jim Philips footage. Phillips was an umpire who constantly gave "no balls". The footage was used to prove the bowler was bowling correctly.

 

It was lost for years until found and restored.

 

It was shown as part of a TV series on the BBC with Dan Cruickshank about twenty years ago and endlessly repeated on Yesterday. And yes, I mean endlessly in that it was a case of "Not that old rubbish again!"

 

Thought it was commonly known footage. Just might not have got to the Colonies I suppose. 

 

It's all on YouTube somewhere and the BFI website has a list.

 

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b9430a819

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

 

It's certainly a Webb six-wheeler; however it need not necessarily be a Precedent. It could be an 18" Goods (Cauliflower) - they were mixed traffic engines. I think the train is LNWR stock - 30'1" 6-wheelers mostly though there's a 4-compartment carriage that has me stumped. They're not 28' 4-wheelers since they're not close coupled and no sets were built for the Manchester district. It's running non-stop through Old Trafford station, 

 

 

I don't think that's a 4 ft 6 in Tank (Chopper) - the bunker looks too high and the side tanks don't extend forward of the dome. I'm fairly sure its a (by this date Great Central) Sacré 2-4-0T - there were two classes, built specifically to work the MSJ&A. The original eight built in the 1860s* had been displaced by slightly larger but otherwise similar engines in the 1880s - Class 12AT, the two survivors of which became LNER Class E8:

 

 

I believe this photo shows one converted to motor train working - Class 12AM - which was when it gained a rear cab spectacle plate and extended roof; the one seen at Old Trafford has the original open cab; I think one can make out the oval cab window, a characteristic Sacré feature.

 

The train stopping at Old Trafford station is presumably composed of MSJ&A stock.

 

*Ahrons records that the detailed design work was done by S.W. Johnson, later of Midland Railway fame, during the period he was at Gorton under Sacré.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Compound2632

[melmerby]

After the fireman ducks down:

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by melmerby

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

After the fireman ducks down:

 

I had some difficulty picking a good frame - there's a chap in a hat who gets in the way at the key moment!

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I had some difficulty picking a good frame - there's a chap in a hat who gets in the way at the key moment!

The silhouette certainly looks very like 449.

[kevinlms]

23 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Great find? It's one of the most famous scenes of early cricket!

 

I can even give you the date 11th July 1901. It's the Arthur Mold v Jim Philips footage. Phillips was an umpire who constantly gave "no balls". The footage was used to prove the bowler was bowling correctly.

 

It was lost for years until found and restored.

 

It was shown as part of a TV series on the BBC with Dan Cruickshank about twenty years ago and endlessly repeated on Yesterday. And yes, I mean endlessly in that it was a case of "Not that old rubbish again!"

 

Thought it was commonly known footage. Just might not have got to the Colonies I suppose. 

 

It's all on YouTube somewhere and the BFI website has a list.

 

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b9430a819

 

 

 

Jason

It might be a famous cricket scene, but who cares, it's the trains that are important here on RMweb!

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

It might be a famous cricket scene, but who cares, it's the trains that are important here on RMweb!

 

 

 

But isn't it important to put things into their correct historical context? I thought the whole point of historical modelling was history.

 

 

But I gave you an exact date. Isn't that vastly more important than a silhouette of a couple of trains that everyone has seen hundreds of times?

 

Or is it the fact that Australia are crap at the moment and the umpire was a cheating Aussie that was caught by the first use of film for a "action replay". I think the later.

 

Really. What a daft comment.

[Compound2632]

Having an exact date - 11 July 1901 you said - makes the film all the more valuable from the point of view of its railway interest, even if that's of incidental interest to the main subject of the film. From what Ahrons says, I think this is about the time the 12AT 2-4-0Ts were being replaced by Parker 2-4-2Ts; this shows that that wasn't complete by summer 1901.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But isn't it important to put things into their correct historical context? I thought the whole point of historical modelling was history.

 

 

But I gave you an exact date. Isn't that vastly more important than a silhouette of a couple of trains that everyone has seen hundreds of times?

 

Or is it the fact that Australia are crap at the moment and the umpire was a cheating Aussie that was caught by the first use of film for a "action replay". I think the later.

 

Really. What a daft comment.

Gents if we could please calm down and go on with our lives like normal rather than going off on each other over a sport on a model railways forum both of which are actually equally pointless. (Addressed to @kevinlms as well)

Edited June 9, 2021 by Florence Locomotive Works