Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

https://www.matfoundrygroup.com/News and Blog/Is_the_Future_of_Automotive_Nitrogen_Cars

I cannot find an online reference to gaseous nitrogen engines, only liquid nitrogen engines.

That is to say that the fuel is stored  on board in its gaseous not liquid state.

If you can find such a reference I'd be grateful if could share it. 

 

But everyone else is talking about hydrogen engines either by combustion or fuel cell. The link you gave seems to be similar to a compressed air engine but using liquid nitrogen to increase capacity.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Vistisen said:

What about using steel rail to cut friction. You could join a whole load of lorries together and just have one driver at the front... Reminds me of something.

I don't fancy steel rails running down the local roads....

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

But everyone else is talking about hydrogen engines either by combustion or fuel cell. The link you gave seems to be similar to a compressed air engine but using liquid nitrogen to increase capacity.

OK so you're not able to provide a link about these machines work and the onboard storage of the fuel.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

OK so you're not able to provide a link about these machines work and the onboard storage of the fuel.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

[Grovenor]

Since JCB are proposing buying this green hydrogen from Australia there must be a significant environmental cost in transporting it from the other side of the world, quietly not mentioned. And currently Australia is not high in the availability of green electricity, so is this hydrogen producer going to set up its own solar farms for the electrolysis, and get a fleet of hydrogen fuelled tanker ships. All sounds likely to be a long time coming.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Since JCB are proposing buying this green hydrogen from Australia there must be a significant environmental cost in transporting it from the other side of the world, quietly not mentioned. And currently Australia is not high in the availability of green electricity, so is this hydrogen producer going to set up its own solar farms for the electrolysis, and get a fleet of hydrogen fuelled tanker ships. All sounds likely to be a long time coming.

 

I find everything about the JCB hydrogen combustion scheme entirely baffling.

 

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Since JCB are proposing buying this green hydrogen from Australia there must be a significant environmental cost in transporting it from the other side of the world, quietly not mentioned. And currently Australia is not high in the availability of green electricity, so is this hydrogen producer going to set up its own solar farms for the electrolysis, and get a fleet of hydrogen fuelled tanker ships. All sounds likely to be a long time coming.

But little different to an oil tanker leaving the Middle East to travel around the world delivering oil.

 

All that vast space in Australia, masses of strong sunlight and surrounded by a vast ocean - sounds like Australia could be the new Middle East in terms of fuel production.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

All that vast space in Australia, masses of strong sunlight and surrounded by a vast ocean - sounds like Australia could be the new Middle East in terms of fuel production.

 

Except that Australia is currently the land of the wonky coal-fired electricity grid that needs  a big Tesla battery to prop it up.

For them to suddenly become a large exporter of green hydrogen seems a bit of a U turn.

They should already be massively into solar by now.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

 

Except that Australia is currently the land of the wonky coal-fired electricity grid that needs  a big Tesla battery to prop it up.

For them to suddenly become a large exporter of green hydrogen seems a bit of a U turn.

They should already be massively into solar by now.

Maybe, but perhaps no-one has been willing to pay for it until now.

 

Now the whole world might want hydrogen and Australia has the means to produce it and at the same time get the rest of the world to pay for upgrading Australia's own grid.

[PenrithBeacon]

28 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

What on earth are you talking about?

The conversation on here was about the use of hydrogen in cars. Some people seem to think it will be stored on board in gaseous form which I think is hopelessly impractical and I have asked for online links for this to clarify. So far there have been no offers

I have provided two links to the use of hydrogen in liquid form which I think is the better option. If anyone disagrees please can they provide links to support their view.

Thanks 

[MPR]

13 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The conversation on here was about the use of hydrogen in cars. Some people seem to think it will be stored on board in gaseous form which I think is hopelessly impractical and I have asked for online links for this to clarify. So far there have been no offers

I have provided two links to the use of hydrogen in liquid form which I think is the better option. If anyone disagrees please can they provide links to support their view.

Thanks 

Composite tanks, gaseous storage 700 bar or so. Liquid would require either serious insulation or active cooling - the boiling point of hydrogen is -240C. If you watch rocket launches with hydrogen fuel (space shuttle/SLS or Ariane 5 core stage) this is handled by continuing to top off the open tank until the last moment to replace boil off - pressurisation occurs very quickly after the lid is closed! The fuel is then used over the next few minutes, so no long term storage is necessary)

A link for current production technology hydrogen  tank is

https://www.toyota-europe.com/download/cms/euen/Toyota Mirai FCV_Posters_LR_tcm-11-564265.pdf

Edited November 1, 2021 by MPR
Add BPT of hydrogen

[Guest]

Just now, PenrithBeacon said:

The conversation on here was about the use of hydrogen in cars. Some people seem to think it will be stored on board in gaseous form which I think is hopelessly impractical and I have asked for online links for this to clarify. So far there have been no offers

I have provided two links to the use of hydrogen in liquid form which I think is the better option. If anyone disagrees please can they provide links to support their view.

Thanks 

 

You provided links to liquid _nitrogen_ engines which nobody is talking about.

Are you saying you don't believe in gas cylinders unless I prove to you they exist?

 

Hydrogen is liquid at -250 degrees which is a little impractical. It has been done with insulated tanks but it's much simpler to have a simple gas tank.

You can do your own Googling.

[woodenhead]

Web page on Hydrogen cars:

 

https://www.hydrogenhub.org/2017/10/31/introduction-to-hydrogen-cars/

[Grovenor]

49 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The conversation on here was about the use of hydrogen in cars. Some people seem to think it will be stored on board in gaseous form which I think is hopelessly impractical and I have asked for online links for this to clarify. So far there have been no offers

I have provided two links to the use of hydrogen in liquid form which I think is the better option. If anyone disagrees please can they provide links to support their view.

Thanks 

You should go back and read your own posts, the conversation was indeed about the use of hydrogen, although in JCB machinery rather than cars. But all the links you supplied related to the use of Nitrogen. Hydrogen and Nitrogen are very different!

[Reorte]

A hydrogen engine ultimately requires a chemical reaction to produce energy (whether that's by burning it in a combustion engine or using it in a fuel cell to create electricity) - there's a reaction between hydrogen and oxygen that produces water.

 

Nitrogen is a lot less reactive, it is not suitable as a chemical fuel (you get some, which is why NOX is a byproduct of combustion engines), so I assume a nitrogen engine is therefore exploiting simply the pressure difference between a pressurised tank and the air, and / or the temperature difference between a liquid nitrogen and the air, no chemical reaction involved. Just as well it's unreactive really, since air is approximately 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen.

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

A hydrogen engine ultimately requires a chemical reaction to produce energy (whether that's by burning it in a combustion engine or using it in a fuel cell to create electricity) - there's a reaction between hydrogen and oxygen that produces water.

 

Nitrogen is a lot less reactive, it is not suitable as a chemical fuel (you get some, which is why NOX is a byproduct of combustion engines), so I assume a nitrogen engine is therefore exploiting simply the pressure difference between a pressurised tank and the air, and / or the temperature difference between a liquid nitrogen and the air, no chemical reaction involved. Just as well it's unreactive really, since air is approximately 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen.

 

Yes, it would really be a bit like a steam engine using liquid nitrogen rather than water. It can be used as a method to recover more work from the waste heat of an ICE. But this is all way "off topic"

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_nitrogen_engine

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by AndyID
Added link

[Grovenor]

22 hours ago, AndyID said:

 But this is all way "off topic"

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_nitrogen_engine

The topic covers 'Alternative fuels' Nitrogen could be considered such although its more of a storage medium like a battery, or indeed hydrogen. You have to use a lot of energy to produce your liquid nitrogen and get some of that back when you use it.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Grovenor
typo

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

The topic covers 'Alternative fuels' Nitrogen could be considered such although its more of a starage medium like a battery, or indeed hydrogen. You have to use a lot of energy to produce your liquid nitrogen and get some of that back when you use it.

 

Yes, nitrogen isn't completely irrelevant as it is just another way to store energy. I actually spent a lot of time working out how to use it to recover braking energy on trains crossing the Rockies. It looked really good until I discovered I had made a fundamental error in the thermo. It still worked but the fuel savings wouldn't justify the additional cost and complexity.

[AndyID]

Oh well, in for a penny....

 

The idea of using nitrogen as a storage medium is highly seductive. You do put a lot of work (energy) into producing liquid nitrogen and a lot of that energy is dissipated as heat into the atmosphere. But, when you reverse the process you get heat back from the atmosphere that converts the liquid nitrogen into super-heated (but not very hot) nitrogen gas that's quite capable of driving a sort of steam/compressed-air engine or a turbine. Essentially the nitrogen acts like a big spring that stores energy.

 

Unfortunately the Laws of Thermodynamics tend to get in the way a bit. Unless you have some other heat-source you need very large heat exchangers to extract heat quickly enough from the atmosphere and the heat exchangers tend to ice-over if there is any water vapor in the atmosphere.

 

Despite those limitations I still think we should be looking at nitrogen as a method of storing energy on scales that are far beyond the scale of chemical batteries.

[Ron Ron Ron]

While all this discussion about possible, alternative energy sources for vehicles, is very interesting, much of it is speculative.

In the meantime, for cars and light commercial vehicles, BEVs will be firmly established as the dominant replacement for the ICE.

Every week there are several announcements about the forthcoming production plans of various motor manufacturing companies.

The scale of investment and reconfiguring of the industry is deeply established and the direction of travel, barring economic catastrophe, won’t be changed now.

 

The Stellantis group, formed from several large manufacturing groups (PSA, OPEL/Vauxhall, FIAT group and Chrysler), some of who’s car brands might have been doomed if they’d not come together, are mounting a serious challenge into BEV’s.

Two of their latest announcements are the revival of the Opel Manta and Lancia Delta names, that will be used on a couple of forthcoming electric vehicles.

 

Unlike the original car using the name, the new Opel Manta isn’t going to be a coupe this time around, but rather a crossover/ SUV type vehicle, similar to the Ford Mustang E.

 

 

 

.

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Unlike the original car using the name, the new Opel Manta isn’t going to be a coupe this time around, but rather a crossover/ SUV type vehicle, similar to the Ford Mustang E.

 

Yawn.

 

Hey Opel make this!

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/vauxhall/opel-manta-gse/

[idd15]

Not sure I could live with the colour! 

 

But it does have a gearbox, how very quaint! 

 

idd

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

Yawn.

 

Hey Opel make this!

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/vauxhall/opel-manta-gse/

So retro they did the saloon not the coupe.

[idd15]

New hydrogen vehicles hopefully not coming to you any time soon!

 

Hydrogen Ambulance

 

take care

idd

[John Harris]

Since the persistence issue around EVs is range, though I think the more pertinent one should be the availability of charging points.

 

There is a trial underway in the Netherlands to allow Ford EV drivers to use the Tesla network of superchargers, 

 

Ford's EV range is small at the moment, but soon to be expanded in Europe using VW technology.

 

jch