Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Nearholmer]

"We have DSG boxes in both cars, and to be honest after getting used to a twin clutch sequential box wouldn't go back to manual."

 

Spooky ...... I could have written that!

[Ozexpatriate]

All the discussion on charging points makes me wonder if there were letters to The Times around the turn of the 20th century, complaining about the futility of motor cars and their inevitable failure due to inadequate access to fueling locations and the dangers of flammable spirits.

 

After all, hay could be found everywhere and did not burn explosively.

 

We sometimes forget that there is well over a century of infrastructure development for fueling internal combustion engines.

 

Some months ago I saw a presentation that included photographs of the same street (I think it was in New York*) separated by a decade or perhaps two. In the first, there was one motor car - everything else was horse drawn. In the second everything was internal combustion powered. Once the tipping point is reached these kind of technological changes happen - not exactly overnight, but pretty quickly in comparison to a human life span. EVs themselves don't provide sufficient advantages to create this tipping point. Autonomous EVs will.

 

An additional observation for most of us here: it's not the people who are over 50 who make these kinds of changes happen.

 

* EDIT: It wasn't these, but they are very similar.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[Kickstart]

We have DSG boxes in both cars, and to be honest after getting used to a twin clutch sequential box wouldn't go back to manual.

Not yet driven a DSG box car. But I have done quite a lot of miles in an Alfa 156 Selespeed. Before driving it I really liked the idea of it. However now I have come to realise that changing gear and using the clutch is part of the pleasure in driving a car. I deliberately bought a 6 speed version of my car (an MX5) to have more gears to play with.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Reorte]

Can't say I've ever seen much point in automatics, seeing as gear changing is pretty much subconcious. Not that the lack of needing gears puts me off an EV, but neither is it a selling point. The only time I've driven one I did find slow speed control awkward without a clutch (never having ever driven anything else) but that's simply a case of getting used to it. I didn't like the foot handbrake though. The power was impressive for a small car (Renault Zoe).

[Nearholmer]

Ozex

 

You can read very early editions of Autocar on-line, and they are filled with articles and letters bemoaning the difficulty of obtaining ‘motor spirit’, which could often only be got from pharmacists.

 

The laws around holding and storage of low flash point fluids were exceedingly strict in Britain, because there had been a series of terrible fires caused by people using them in place of lamp oil.

 

‘Petrol’ infrastructure and supply chains took a fair few years to come into being, and the two gallon can was a more common means of distribution that ‘tank and petrol pump’ for a long time.

 

K

Edited May 22, 2018 by Nearholmer

[30801]

 I didn't like the foot handbrake though. The power was impressive for a small car (Renault Zoe).

 

I did read a comment by someone who banged the parking brake going for the 'clutch'. Not something I've felt inclined to do. Maybe because of the lack of engine noise.

[57xx]

Not yet driven a DSG box car. But I have done quite a lot of miles in an Alfa 156 Selespeed. Before driving it I really liked the idea of it. However now I have come to realise that changing gear and using the clutch is part of the pleasure in driving a car. I deliberately bought a 6 speed version of my car (an MX5) to have more gears to play with.

 

I picked my current car with Powershift to make the daily commute more comfortable. Too many youthful years on the bike in all weathers and inadequate cold protection has left my knees a bit screwed and my left one can suffer when a lot of clutch work is required. However, I do agree that gear changing is part of driving, so I made sure I got the paddle change as well. Now I have a nice compromise and can crawl along in traffic without giving my knee gip or do simple things like dropping a cog coming into a corner to keep that driving experience alive (along with the 182hp Ecoboost ).

 

 

Can't say I've ever seen much point in automatics, seeing as gear changing is pretty much subconcious.

 

As above, for me, it's not about having to think about changing gear, it's personal comfort. When I used to get stuck in bank holiday traffic in my van, I sometimes couldn't walk properly for quite sometime afterwards until my left knee recovered from all the work on the clutch pedal.

Edited May 22, 2018 by 57xx

[jjb1970]

All the discussion on charging points makes me wonder if there were letters to The Times around the turn of the 20th century, complaining about the futility of motor cars and their inevitable failure due to inadequate access to fueling locations and the dangers of flammable spirits.

 

After all, hay could be found everywhere and did not burn explosively.

 

We sometimes forget that there is well over a century of infrastructure development for fueling internal combustion engines.

 

Some months ago I saw a presentation that included photographs of the same street (I think it was in New York*) separated by a decade or perhaps two. In the first, there was one motor car - everything else was horse drawn. In the second everything was internal combustion powered. Once the tipping point is reached these kind of technological changes happen - not exactly overnight, but pretty quickly in comparison to a human life span. EVs themselves don't provide sufficient advantages to create this tipping point. Autonomous EVs will.

 

An additional observation for most of us here: it's not the people who are over 50 who make these kinds of changes happen.

 

* EDIT: It wasn't these, but they are very similar.

I think if you look at technological discontinuities there are some recurrent themes:

 

-The first generation proves that it is possible to apply an idea but generally lags behind the more established competition and is often viewed as being an answer looking for a question. Often championed by early adopters with most people being (justifiably) sceptical. However it proves that the application can work and those with a belief in the technology continue working on improving their ideas;

 

-The second generation offers something much more practical/usable and starts to become viable, moving beyond dedicated early adopters. The more established technologies are often still superior in many respects but users start to recognise that the new kid on the block is more than a technological novelty;

 

-The technology is commercialised, and often it is non-traditional suppliers without a lot of investment in the older technology and who genuinely believe in the new one that are most successful in commercialising and finding applications for it;

 

-The product matures to a point where it genuinely outperforms the older technology and almost without people realising it passes a tipping point which is obvious in hindsight;

 

-People question why anybody couldn't have seen what was blindingly obvious with the benefit of hindsight. If the technology offer compelling benefits then industry or society adapts to the technology rather than expecting the technology to adapt to them.

 

I see EVs following this sort of trajectory, even to the point that it is a non-traditional manufacturer like Tesla that has really shifted expectations for EVs. I think we are going over the tipping point and the future is EV. I think PHEVs will form part of the mix for a significant period and it is entirely possible that hydrogen fuel cells may win out in the longer term but either way I think the future is EV.

[jjb1970]

Not yet driven a DSG box car. But I have done quite a lot of miles in an Alfa 156 Selespeed. Before driving it I really liked the idea of it. However now I have come to realise that changing gear and using the clutch is part of the pleasure in driving a car. I deliberately bought a 6 speed version of my car (an MX5) to have more gears to play with.

 

All the best

 

Katy

I think in my case if I bought a small high performance sports car I might go back to manual. But for my everyday drive which is a big family barge which wafts along serenely aDSG is perfect.

[Kickstart]

I picked my current car with Powershift to make the daily commute more comfortable. Too many youthful years on the bike in all weathers and inadequate cold protection has left my knees a bit screwed and my left one can suffer when a lot of clutch work is required. However, I do agree that gear changing is part of driving, so I made sure I got the paddle change as well. Now I have a nice compromise and can crawl along in traffic without giving my knee gip or do simple things like dropping a cog coming into a corner to keep that driving experience alive.

Too many years on small 2 strokes is why I am happy changing gear a lot!

 

It isn't just having gears to change, but using the clutch. Double declutching and / or getting a nice smooth gear change adds to the drive.

 

We used to have a Renault Clio Zoom. This had a conventional 5 speed gearbox but no clutch pedal (there was a conventional clutch in the car, just it was operated automatically). Quite interesting to drive. Saab and Fiat had cars with similar systems.

 

I think in my case if I bought a small high performance sports car I might go back to manual. But for my everyday drive which is a big family barge which wafts along serenely aDSG is perfect.

MX5 isn't really high performance, but it is my everyday car.

 

I have realised that buying a vehicle (bike or car) to be sensible without taking the pleasure of riding / driving into account is going to result in me hating the vehicle.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[jjb1970]

MX5 isn't really high performance, but it is my everyday car.

 

I have realised that buying a vehicle (bike or car) to be sensible without taking the pleasure of riding / driving into account is going to result in me hating the vehicle.

 

All the best

 

Katy

The MX5 isn't high performance but it delivers a fun experience and is very entertaining without needing to be fast. And there is a lot to be said for that.

 

On the other hand I find my car very pleasurable, it doesn't have the chuckability or fun factor of an MX5 but the A6 is superbly comfortable, nicely luxurious and is a lovely serene and relaxed place to be as it just glides along. Despite being a diesel cabin noise is remarkably suppressed, it is much quieter than my wife's petrol engine Golf inside to the point that unless you feel the slight kick it isn't obvious when the engine stop/start is working.

[jjb1970]

http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/aston-martin-confirms-first-electric-sedan-2019

[jjb1970]

This is impressive:

 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/roadster?redirect=no

 

But this is probably a lot more important and relevant:

 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3

 

If the Model 3 works well then it will be quite a compelling proposition as it will sit in decent 3 Series/A 4/C Class/XE territory.

[Nearholmer]

Ozex

 

Have a read of this ....... https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-designation/heritage-highlights/englands-first-filling-station

 

K

[Ozexpatriate]

I wonder what the ratio of sales of manual to automatic transmissions is?

For my car I can answer that one!  20% manual to 80% auto. That said I suspect for most cars in the UK manuals still out sell autos.

Can't say I've ever seen much point in automatics, seeing as gear changing is pretty much subconcious. ... I didn't like the foot handbrake though.

I did read a comment by someone who banged the parking brake going for the 'clutch'. Not something I've felt inclined to do. Maybe because of the lack of engine noise.

As above, for me, it's not about having to think about changing gear, it's personal comfort. When I used to get stuck in bank holiday traffic in my van, I sometimes couldn't walk properly for quite sometime afterwards until my left knee recovered from all the work on the clutch pedal.

I find my clutch very tedious in heavy stop and go traffic. Of course it's fun when on a road with lots of curves.

 

Foot operated parking brakes are disappearing from automatic and EVs, being largely replaced by brakes with an electronic switch - located in seemingly random places in the dash or console. At least they are better than the old umbrella handle under the dash.

 

I recognize that the US is different to the UK regarding manual transmissions, but these data may surprise some of you.

 

Models offering manual transmissions in the US:

2006  47%

2011: 37%

2016: 27%

 

Total sales of manual transmissions in the US:

1992: 25%

2012:  7%

2017:  3%

 

Yes, that's right. 3% of new vehicles bought in the US have a manual transmission! In the UK it is decreasing, but most data suggests manual transmissions still outnumber automatic transmissions in new sales in the UK.

 

As far as the motoring public is concerned, EVs not having a clutch pedal is no impediment for buyers in the US.

 

Part of the difference can be explained with driving license restrictions in the UK where to drive a manual transmission, you must be tested on a manual transmission and it is a cultural 'norm' not to be left out.

 

Australia has similar licensing requirements as the UK. While I haven't seen real data, I think the ratio of manual / automatic cars in Australia is far lower than the UK.

[Ozexpatriate]

Have a read of this ....... https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-designation/heritage-highlights/englands-first-filling-station

My how some things never change. Bolshevik threat indeed!

[jjb1970]

Electronic parking brakes are pretty normal on cars now. Initially I thought the idea was another answer looking for a question but I like the idea now.

 

I think one reason automatics aren't more popular here is simply down to price, the standard model tends to be the manual version and to buy the auto is typically £1000 - 1500 more. Many people would either not spend the extra, or spend it on going up an engine size or getting more luxury toys.

[Ozexpatriate]

I see EVs following this sort of trajectory, even to the point that it is a non-traditional manufacturer like Tesla that has really shifted expectations for EVs. I think we are going over the tipping point and the future is EV. I think PHEVs will form part of the mix for a significant period and it is entirely possible that hydrogen fuel cells may win out in the longer term but either way I think the future is EV.

Yes, the whole think reeks of Christensen's "Innovators dilemma" model and is tracking really well. I am less sanguine that the flip will happen with EVs (and PHEVs) alone but concur that the future is with EVs.

 

Autonomous EVs (particularly in a shared/alternative ownership model)  offer enormous benefits to a Millennial generation less inclined to be gear heads than their forebears. Interestingly to me, the ride share options for autonomous EVs make all the charge point infrastructure and parking questions so problematic in medium-to-high density spaces (like terraced housing) evaporate. It is not a coincidence that companies like Uber have such big investments in EVs and autonomous driving.

 

Car ownership long represented freedom for teenagers - particularly where public transport was less available. A smart 'phone and ride share offers almost similar independence, with lower entry cost.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[jjb1970]

In some ways electrification of cars is straightforward. The power and battery energy density isn't especially high and simple PEM type fuel cells with compressed hydrogen are a good solution is the hydrogen is readily available. Electrification of trains is simple as you just need to put some wires or a conductor rail in place (an idea being applied to trucks too).

 

The two problem modes of transport if you want to electrify them are aviation and shipping. I think electric light aircraft are feasible but I can't see it being viable for large airliners for an awful long time (if ever). In the case of shipping the motor drive is simple enough and diesel - electric and turbo - electric ships have been used for many decades (the USN built turbo-electric warships before WW2) but the battery capacity to power a ship of any size is huge and if you go with fuel cells you need the more challenging higher temperature types and even then you need a lot of fuel cells to get the necessary power. That said both battery and fuel cell ships are being developed and both have been used in certain applications for many years. Battery powered boats predate the diesel engine and submarines have used battery power pretty much from the outset. In some ways if the world really wants to decarbonise shipping then it could do it easily with nuclear power plants but unfortunately that is off the agenda in most of the world for political reasons.

[Kickstart]

Electronic parking brakes are pretty normal on cars now. Initially I thought the idea was another answer looking for a question but I like the idea now.

To me it is something that would put me off a car. For a handbrake I want something that can be operated in an emergency (whether there are electrics or not) and independent of as much as possible. And something that is a nightmare service item really doesn't appeal!

 

I think one reason automatics aren't more popular here is simply down to price, the standard model tends to be the manual version and to buy the auto is typically £1000 - 1500 more. Many people would either not spend the extra, or spend it on going up an engine size or getting more luxury toys.

There are a few separate things. Higher fuel consumption for conventional autos has traditionally been a major factor, along with lost performance. With robotised manual boxes (whether that is Selespeed type, or DSG type) this isn't an issue though. Greater weight is a factor. For me one of the factors is sloppy connection between the engine and the road until the transmission locks up.

 

In the right situation none of these are killers to automatics, but for me the up sides don't go far enough to cover any one of them!

 

But then I am a luddite control freak.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[jjb1970]

The only criticism I have of the DSG gear box is that sometimes it can struggle to put the power to the road on initial pull off without some wheel slip, other than that the gear changes feel pretty much seamless and I see no economy or performance penalty (if anything the opposite is the case). I am not sure about the flappy paddle gear change though, that makes sense on the high performance models and sports cars but for a large saloon with the cooking diesel engine it seems a bit pointless. I never use them and leave it in auto all the time although I do use sport mode if over taking.

[Zomboid]

What emergency scenario would you use a handbrake in?

 

Auto transmission depends on the car. In a big barge type thing a slushy torque converter auto could suit it quite well, but in a sporty thing like an mx5 it really would be terrible. I had a dual clutch with paddles, and never used them. It was an excellent piece of technology though, I'd gladly have another.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Zomboid

[Ron Ron Ron]

.... In a big barge type thing a slushy torque converter auto could suit it quite well,....

 

 

Slushy autos are largely, something from the past.

The top marques use very fast and efficient auto boxes.

Where a manual option is still available, the manual is often slower (0-60 etc,) and heavier on the juice.

The auto wins on MPG and performance.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Opel Ampera-e.

An updated European version of the Chevrolet Bolt.

Soon to appear wearing a Vauxhall badge.

 

The original Chevvy Volt and Opel/Vauxhall Ampera, was a range extender hybrid.

This new car is pure EV.

 

http://www.opel.com/ampera-e/index.html.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Kickstart]

What emergency scenario would you use a handbrake in?

 

Major brake failure. A direct mechanic link to the brake calipers is a fairly independent backup. And yes I have needed it many years ago.

 

Where a manual option is still available, the manual is often slower (0-60 etc,) and heavier on the juice.

The auto wins on MPG and performance.

On the mpg, often that is because with an auto they can fiddle the change points easily to improve the test figures. In a similar way to the VW emissions scandal, but been done for far longer.

 

There are times when engines and gearboxes are very badly matched. We used to have a 2.5L Jaguar X Type manual. This had a revvy engine, but a notchy slow manual change with what felt like a far too heavy flywheel; the engine wanted enthusiastic use but the transmission discouraged it (I have driven an auto version and it worked a lot better). Similarly years ago in Aus we hired a Ford Falcon auto. Very lazy engine with a hyperactive 4 speed auto. If you looked at the accelerator pedal it kicked down a gear, if you dared actually push it then it kicked down 2 gears and just about snapped your neck. Pity that just meant it was now doing over 5000rpm rather than 1700rpm, with absolutely no extra umph from the lower gear!

 

All the best

 

Katy