early BRITISH RAILWAYS livery on an ex GWR 57xx

[snowy1051]

Has anyone any evidence of an ex GW 57xx pannier tank carrying the early BRITISH RAILWAYS livery in plain font? I've seen the picture of 8738 with Swindon style lettering in H.C.Casserley and L.L.Ashers Locomotives of British Railways then a few pages further on is 4526 with the BRITISH RAILWAYS in plain font. My layout is set in the very early 50's and I have a 57xx arriving soon. I would like to give it the early BR livery, but how authentic would it be? I know I can invoke Rule 1, but I would like to know. Thank you. 

[PMP]

I’ve never seen a picture of one, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen of course. If there was one I think it likely a picture would have surfaced, particularly bearing in mind the longevity of GW liveries.
There’s an image of a 97xx in Gil Sans here,

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/h9567f1d1

 

 The 4526 image is quite well known for its unusual use of the Gil Sans type face.

Edited November 16, 2021 by PMP
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[The Johnster]

The Gill Sans lettering was used on locos emerging from paint shops, i.e. those that were new builds or had heavy overhauls, between 1/6/48 and 31/9/49.  So, any of the 96xx series of 8750s entering service during that period, but 57xx are more of a problem, and in the absence of photographic evidence one would need to know the overhaul dates for individual locos.  
 

You may be reduced to ‘best guess’ for this, and I would suggest invoking Rule 1 and going ahead with the livery on your 57xx, but be prepared to re-livery or change the number if better information comes to light.  Don’t forget that the austerity economy which was even more severe in the late 40s than it had been during the war itself may have meant that film was difficult to obtain, so photos from the period, especially of humble panniers, are a bit thin on the ground. 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well after checking every picture I either have or can find online I cannot find a trace of this engine running with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tank sides. It is a trick I do not think the RTR companies would miss to sell more engines. As even Hornby managed to make a model of the one and only Black 5 painted in BR green. BR 44932.

 

[Jenks465]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

 

There's a list of locos that received British Railways lettering here. 3738 is included but there's no picture unfortunately.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

Well after checking every picture I either have or can find online I cannot find a trace of this engine running with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tank sides. It is a trick I do not think the RTR companies would miss to sell more engines. As even Hornby managed to make a model of the one and only Black 5 painted in BR green. BR 44932.

 

 

There was actually two genuine BR green Black Fives. Not including the three that were painted for the exhibition at Kensington in 1948 in GWR, LNER and SR green which didn't stay in that livery long.

 

M4762 was SR Malachite

M4763 was the LNER apple green one.

M4764 was GWR green

 

I don't know what logo they carried, if any.

 

I can't recall the numbers of the BR Green ones though. One lasted until the mid 1950s.

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

25 minutes ago, Jenks465 said:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

There's a list of locos that received British Railways lettering here. 3738 is included but there's no picture unfortunately.

 

If it's in that list, it means I've either seen a pic or someone trustworthy has reported it (often here on RMweb).

 

Anything in Pannier Papers?

 

 

[Miss Prism]

A Black Five in anything other than black is very weird!

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

A Black Five in anything other than black is very weird!

 

Here's a model of the LNER green one. Not my favourite shade for a locomotive.

 

https://www.stationroadsteam.com/5-inch-gauge-stanier-black-5-apple-green-livery-stock-code-2248/

 

 

 

Jason

[cypherman]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Here's a model of the LNER green one. Not my favourite shade for a locomotive.

 

https://www.stationroadsteam.com/5-inch-gauge-stanier-black-5-apple-green-livery-stock-code-2248/

 

 

 

Jason

Seeing the engine in apple green like that makes the tender look wrong. It looks like it should have the tender from B1 or B17

[DCB]

On 16/11/2021 at 12:31, Steamport Southport said:

 

There was actually two genuine BR green Black Fives. Not including the three that were painted for the exhibition at Kensington in 1948 in GWR, LNER and SR green which didn't stay in that livery long.

 

M4762 was SR Malachite

M4763 was the LNER apple green one.

M4764 was GWR green

 

I don't know what logo they carried, if any.

 

I can't recall the numbers of the BR Green ones though. One lasted until the mid 1950s.

 

 

Jason

What was the story behind the two Green Black Fives.   I know about the three at Kensington, plus the LNWR Black one, but the other two are something new. 

[adb968008]

On 16/11/2021 at 11:14, cypherman said:

As even Hornby managed to make a model of the one and only Black 5 painted in BR green. BR 44932.

 

And 44806..

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/44806-lms-4806-br-44806/

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, DCB said:

What was the story behind the two Green Black Fives.   I know about the three at Kensington, plus the LNWR Black one, but the other two are something new. 

 

I think it was still part of the same process of garnering public opinion. I can't remember the numbers but ISTR they were in the 447XX range.

 

There was also the trains in different liveries including Plum & Spilt Milk and Chocolate & Cream.

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.org/#PulmSpiltMilk

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.org/#BRChocCream

 

 

Getting back to the OP I'll try and dig out the Pannier Papers books. However it seems to me that most of the GWR locos that received BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering got the Egyptian (GWR) style.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

And 44806..

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/44806-lms-4806-br-44806/

 

I would disagree with some of that link. Seems to be written by someone who wasn't around at the time.

 

44806 moved to Manchester because Manchester Museum of Science & Industry promised to pay for an overhaul without realising it was a basket case and restoration to working order was well outside of their budget.

 

Steamport wasn't in a state of winding down in 1983, that was about the time we purchased the site from BR and work was starting on replacement of the roof. Also the time when railtours were starting. In fact some locomotive owners were planning on moving their locomotives there as it was one of the few places that could put them under cover and which had a mainline connection.

 

 

Jason

[meatloaf]

Dapol have done n gauge 57xx with british railways lettering on both plain font and the gwr type font.

 

y

[Kris]

5 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Dapol have done n gauge 57xx with british railways lettering on both plain font and the gwr type font.

 

y

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/2S-007-023-N-Gauge-Pannier-9741-British-Railways-Green-Late-Cab

 

I wonder if they found a photo of the real 9741 in this livery or if it is a fantasy one.

 

Edit - it is based on a real loco. There is a photo of the loco on GWR.org

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

Scroll towards the bottom to get this photo and the info about it (dates, location etc). 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Kris
Found the answer to my question + added info to give further detail.

[Miss Prism]

9741 received Egyptian lettering (at some time between 1 January to 31 May 1948), as shown in the pic. It is highly unlikely the lettering was replaced by Gill Sans, whose application era was 1 June 1948 to 31 March 1949. The Dapol model is close but no cigar.

 

Of more interest is that Dapol has chosen a green body colour. Ian Rathbone has an interesting paragraph:

 

Quote

On 1st January it was decided that locos be painted in their existing style pending a decision on livery. Locos were to be lettered 'British Railways' in full. Initially locomotives continued to be turned out in GWR 1946 livery except that company lettering was omitted pending a specification for the BR lettering. From mid January repainted engines were lettered BRITISH RAILWAYS in full on tender or tank side.

 

This carries a clear implication that green bodywork continued to be applied until the BR lettering was decided on. One could argue that the adoption of Egyptian, as per the 9741 pic, indicates the lettering had been decided on. In which case however, the bodywork should have been black (in accordance with the Riddles/BTC agreement of October 1947). On the other hand, one could argue the Gill Sans incarnation was the first version of the BR lettering acceptable to Derby. In which case, Swindon and Wolverhampton could continue to do what it darned well pleasy until the Gill Sans transfers arrived.

 

I haven't been brave enough yet to say something about the body colour in the 9741 picture caption.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Miss Prism

[The Johnster]

It's that sort of photo, isn't it; I can convince myself that it is green just as easily as I can convince myself it is black.  It would not be the only anomaly from this very interesting period (one of the reasons I model it).  I have seen photos of GW tank locos presumably painted in the mid-January to 31st March period of 1948 in clearly green unlined GW livery, the black on the smokebox being an obviously different colour in black & white (if you see what I mean), and with the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in Egyptian Serif style lettering, though not panniers, and don't forget that the GW was painting some panniers and other classes such as 56xx black in the 1945-7 period. 

 

Possibly the workshop made a difference, with Caerphilly interpreting the instructions (or lack of them) differently to Swindon.  I used to have a copy of E.R.Mountford's 'Caerphilly Works' book which is now, along with much of what I used to have. as the snows of yesteryear, which is a pity because he goes into some detail about what Caerphilly did and to what locos at this time, as well as the 1942-5 'Grotesque' lettering and the later examples of yellow painted number 'plates' given to some 57xx/8750/56xx in the 50s.

 

As I understand it, which of course may not be perfectly correct, the initial instruction on BR's formation was to carry on as you were before when it came to painting liveries on locos and stock, but not to provide any indication of ownership.  As the GW was painting some locos in unlined green and some of the same classes in unlined black in it's final years, one can assume that they continued this practice in the first 6 months of 1948.  Post war austerity was in full swing and black paint perhaps easier to source than green.  The instruction was amended in early January to paint 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in the previous company style (which was Gill Sans anyway for LNER workshops), and to paint it in Gill Sans from 1/6/48.  This coincided with the introduction of the standard liveries, which for panniers meant unlined black.

 

I am unclear on several livery points despite having an interest in the changeove period.  When were smokebox door numberplates and shedcode plates adopted on non-LMS locos (I've always assumed 1/6/48), when were buffer beam numbers dispensed with, and over what exact period were red backed GW number and name plates used?  Were these changes applied at the sheds to locos in service or did they require the full workshop repaint?  When was the BR standard numbering system introduced for locos, the Southern 3, LMS 4 & 5, and LNER 6 prefixes (again, I assume 1/6/48), and, if the ex-Southern and -LNER paint shops did not use the prefixes during the period in which the ex-LMS ones were prefixing their locos with 'M', were there cases of duplicate numbers (not that I imagine that M7s and ECML pacifics ran on the same rails at the same time very often)?

Edited November 20, 2021 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

The ex LMS took the M very seriously. Many of them got new smokebox number plates with the letter on. Something that didn't happen on the other regions as far as I know. Although the SR seemed to have embraced it as well as even the Bulleid Pacifics were getting a prefix so it was S21C1xx for a WC/BB. 

 

I have a feeling the number prefix was an afterthought as the letter system was getting complicated. The LMR had to renumber quite a few locomotives as they would have been in the LNER number range with an added 4 as many of them were in the 2XXXX number range.

 

Also don't forget the Isle Of Wight locomotives also had a W prefix.

 

 

 

Shedcode plates didn't come into use until 1/2/1950 apart from on the LMR and ScR, even then the BR codes weren't always the same as the LMS as there was a lot of reorganisation.

 

Loads of information on this website. A bit more SR EMU than steam, but very useful.

 

 https://www.bloodandcustard.org/

 

Main page here.

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/

 

Jason

Edited November 20, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[K14]

On 20/11/2021 at 21:04, Miss Prism said:

9741 received Egyptian lettering (at some time between 1 January to 31 May 1948), as shown in the pic.

 

I haven't been brave enough yet to say something about the body colour in the 9741 picture caption.

 

 

It's green. Giveaways are:—

 

1 - Numberplate background is a completely different (and very much darker) shade to the cabside; and...

2 - The tank lettering clearly shows the black 'cast' shadow (yellow face, blocked Red to the left & cast shadow to the right). If it were on a black background, the cast wouldn't show up.

 

Pete S.

[Halls and Prairies]

On 16/11/2021 at 12:40, Miss Prism said:

 

If it's in that list, it means I've either seen a pic or someone trustworthy has reported it (often here on RMweb).

 

Anything in Pannier Papers?

 

 

 

Sorry, first chance to log in for ages. For black loco with white / cream lettering, 9715 has a photo linked to it in the list and the same one also appears in “Collett and Hakesworth Locomotives” by Brian Haresnape (easily found in secondhand outlets). The photo of 3738 is in “Great Western Railway Pannier Tanks” by Robin Jones. 

 

For green locos with GWR style lettering, the ones I can easily recall the source for 3636 and 3726 both in David Maidment’s “Great Western Pannier Tank Classes”, 3694 is in a bookazine “Railway Liveries The British Railways Steam Years”, 8738 is in “Steam Locomotives of British Railways” by H C Casserley, and 9741 is in this thread and possibly in print somewhere too. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Halls and Prairies
technical correction

[Halls and Prairies]

A better and wider shot of 9715 is in “Great Western Steam - The Railway Photographs of R.J (Ron) Buckley” by Brian J. Dickson. 

[Halls and Prairies]

Also 8773 in block lettering - photo recently acquired.