New hst

[adb968008]

16 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Returning to the HST,after the latest Hornby TV programme and its unveiling in “upgraded”form,a couple of points arise.Firstly who is the competition discussed by SK ? Secondly,the new close coupling design……I’m unsure of exactly how it’s going to work and could have done with more coverage about it than we got .Didn’t look particularly robust or effective at least to my eyes.Any thoughts ?

Assumption, based on what I saw, I think the close coupling looked pretty much like whats in the Oxford rail mark 3’s (and similar to class 31, 50 and 60).. an NEM box sitting in a cradle held by a spring, with a baseplate and screws.

 

agnostic to it, it works on my other models, it can be pig to reassemble if you remove, and springs easily lost, but if you don't touch it shouldn't break with normal handling.

 

its not hard to be an improvement on whats there (but so is the hunt coupling which those who care probably already use).

Any upgrade is always a good thing, but I’m not planning to trade in my fleet based on what I've seen so far, my interests are easily defined as EMR (ex-LNER), 43102/272, MP each of which i’d buy upgrade or no upgrade. Then i’m job done.

 

Its a non-event to me, even if someone else is thinking of making one… imo they should be spending money on Electrostar.. its got a far bigger future than a HST.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by adb968008

[Ian Hargrave]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Assumption, based on what I saw, I think the close coupling looked pretty much like whats in the Oxford rail mark 3’s (and similar to class 31, 50 and 60).. an NEM box sitting in a cradle held by a spring.

 

agnostic to it, it works on my other models, it can be pig to reassemble if you remove, and springs easily lost, but if you don't touch it shouldn't break with normal handling.

 

its not hard to be an improvement on whats there (but so is the hunt coupling which those who care probably already use).

Any upgrade is always a good thing, but I’m not planning to trade in my fleet based on what I've seen so far, my interests are easily defined as EMR (ex-LNER), 43102/272, MP each of which i’d buy upgrade or no upgrade.

 

Its a non-event to me, even if someone else is thinking of making one.

 

Thanks for that. My LNER set..Power cars + 8 is equipped with Kadees ( unsure which) box mounted on car ends. The job was done for me by Lochnagar of this parish and works well in both directions.I can’t give further details atm as I’m away from home 

[SamThomas]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I wouldnt recognise model railways as a good investment.

 

IMHO that depends on the area to frequent.

 

Aside from purchases made in say, the last five years most of my European HO is now worth (as in whats secondhand prices fetch) anything from double the purchase price upwards.

[159220]

23 hours ago, Esmedune said:

I'd never call you a loon, we all have different priorities in life. Some of us prefer to buy food to live ;-)  Seriously, I could spend £500 on a loco, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I, personally, just do not see the value in doing so.  If I had a spare £500, I'd probably prefer to go away for a weekend or get a cheap hotel in London and go do some research at the National Archives for a few days.  I have wide and varied interests, but the bottom line is I have a fair understanding of the cost of China manufacturing these things and I just balk at these fantastical prices. If Hornby are only just breaking even, I would say that they need to have a look at why their business is so poorly run. 

However, if model railways are your passion and you have the disposable income, I would not begrudge you blowing a wad on something you really desire. The only point I have been making here is that I could not do that, and I don't claim to be in any moral majority. 

I had to smirk about the concept of the lines being wrong, still, as I don't know how to break this to you, but the models are also far too small to be realistic ;-)

Perhaps you have not seen the Hornby HST, it has very clear parting lines (lines created by plastic expanding out along a join in the moulding slides)? Such lines with todays tooling would be unnecessary and actually if honest with you, if Hornby had invested more in tooling in 2006/07 it would have been highly unlikely the current model would of had them either. It really is a basic issue and something that can easily be avoided on a small and realistic model. 

 

Have you explored models from either Cavalex or Revolution Trains, these are spot perfect models with out compromises. So sorry, models are not far too small to be realistic. You just got to be willing to pay for quality!

 

I think we might agree though? Of course Hornby are not simply breaking even at the £339.99 RRP. But the are a PLC with significant overheards and demanding shareholders. With the HST you are getting poor quality/value for your money verses a competitors model in terms of detail and price. This is the very reason I stopped buying HSTs, too much for what you get. It’s a hobby after all, money shall be spent on my ever increasing wine collection. 

[Katie87006]

On 29/11/2021 at 19:03, spamcan61 said:

It's available via the UKTVplay 'app' 

 

https://uktvplay.uktv.co.uk/shows/Hornby-a-model-world/watch-online

 

thank you, some episodes have made it onto youtube

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

IMHO that depends on the area to frequent.

 

Aside from purchases made in say, the last five years most of my European HO is now worth (as in whats secondhand prices fetch) anything from double the purchase price upwards.

 

I would caution anyone thinking of using model trains as an investment to remember that the current world situation has not only made new prices crazy but also in many cases done the same for used items.

 

But this is unlikely to last.

 

Now it is possible that there is some particular niche of the hobby that is different, but overall adb968008 is correct that model trains as an investment / retirement fund is going to lead to a lot of disappointment - something many buyers of American brass items in the past learned the hard way when their "investment" lost value over time.

 

 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

IMHO that depends on the area to frequent.

 

Aside from purchases made in say, the last five years most of my European HO is now worth (as in whats secondhand prices fetch) anything from double the purchase price upwards.

A lot of HO has also tanked, especially older Roco, Fleischmann and Trix, in the face of newer competition. Nothing is immune.

[Roy Langridge]

7 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I would caution anyone thinking of using model trains as an investment to remember that the current world situation has not only made new prices crazy but also in many cases done the same for used items.

 

But this is unlikely to last.

 

 

Unlike investments, what goes up, rarely comes down in terms of model railway prices.

Roy

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Unlike investments, what goes up, rarely comes down in terms of model railway prices.

Roy

 

There is sometimes a dip in prices - especially SH on ebay  - when a new version of an existing model is announced.

e.g. It happened with Bachmann 66s when Hattons announced their version.

 

Ebay prices for 66s seems to have recovered now that the initial production run of Hattonss 66 is as as good as sold through.

 

Would there be a similar dip in S/H 66 prices if Hattons were to announce another run at a "favourable" price compared to Bachmann's current RRP?

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by newbryford
typo

[TomScrut]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I would caution anyone thinking of using model trains as an investment to remember that the current world situation has not only made new prices crazy but also in many cases done the same for used items.

 

But this is unlikely to last.

 

Now it is possible that there is some particular niche of the hobby that is different, but overall adb968008 is correct that model trains as an investment / retirement fund is going to lead to a lot of disappointment - something many buyers of American brass items in the past learned the hard way when their "investment" lost value over time.

 

 

 

I think the thing is, that whilst I'd never spend the money with a view to needing it back, model railways do tend to have a better return if you do want to sell something than a lot of stuff people spend their disposable income on.

 

Selling stuff to fund new purchases (and clear the space up) often comes in at a ratio where even if I have lost money I feel I have had my money's worth of fun with whatever it is I am selling.

[Ian Hargrave]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

A lot of HO has also tanked, especially older Roco, Fleischmann and Trix, in the face of newer competition. Nothing is immune.

And Fleischmann in HO is bust,N gauge survives now in the hands of Roco.The quality of both Roco and Trix is superb but at a premium price. There are some new kids on the block too.you are right and once a poor relative from the GDR,Piko is fast catching up. Both Roco (  Vietnam) and Piko ( China) contract to the Far East,Piko entirely so. Some Roco is made in Europe still.To look at the ranges on offer,log onto the Modellbahn Union website or Menzels Lokschuppen.They will give you a fair idea of what’s going on.From Austria,Rainer of Innsbruck is still commissioning specials from Roco too.,though attempts at ordering can be difficult 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Ian Hargrave
Correcting errors

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Unlike investments, what goes up, rarely comes down in terms of model railway prices.

Roy

I remember buying a £39.99 Lima class 37069 in Dutch, c1991 only for it a week later to drop to £19.99. It took 27 years until 2018 for Lima to rise above £20… I bought 20 brand new Railroad class 47’s for £35 that year… to put new Hornby chassis under my old Lima ones… and sold the old chassis on 47033 bodies for… oooh.. £19.99.

 

Its really only since 2018 that Limas risen, thats only because Hornby railroad has… they go for about £30 now.

 

The problem back then was making too much, the capital was tied up all in warehouse stock. The risk in 2022 is not enough models, the capital being all tied up in tooling investment, little produced to sell, but overheads still chewing the bottom line… a war of financial attrition, rather than lower prices… if a company goes under yes a collectors frenzy might occur as it’ll be a few years before the tooling re-emerges.

Edited December 4, 2021 by adb968008

[SamThomas]

14 hours ago, adb968008 said:

A lot of HO has also tanked, especially older Roco, Fleischmann and Trix, in the face of newer competition. Nothing is immune.

Still fetches good monet for example my original Fleischmann locomotive was bought in the early seventies for around £25 (when a Triange/Hornby Brittania was around the £9 mark).

 

Good boxed example of this model fetch anything north of £75 (weather we consider it actually worth it or not).

[SamThomas]

15 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I would caution anyone thinking of using model trains as an investment

 

I don't really regard my collection as an "investment" - more a wise buy & certainly a better return than drinking, smoking & wild women (although pehaps not as much fun).

[SamThomas]

6 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

And Fleischmann in HO is bust,N gauge survives now in the hands of Roco.The quality of both Roco and Trix is superb but at a premium price. There are some new kids on the block too.you are right and once a poor relative from the GDR,Piko is fast catching up. Both Roco (  Vietnam) and Piko ( China) contract to the Far East,Piko entirely so. Some Roco is made in Europe still.To look at the ranges on offer,log onto the Modellbahn Union website or Menzels Lokschuppen.They will give you a fair idea of what’s going on.From Austria,Rainer of Innsbruck is still commissioning specials from Roco too.,though attempts at ordering can be difficult 

Fleischmann & Roco are now both part of Modeleisebahn.

Some Fleischmann HO still exists as part of the Roco range - the ranges have been rationalised with the better models of duplications retained - much the same has happened with N Gauge but the other way round.

AFAIK Roco still have some manufacturing in Slovakia - not too sure about MarTrix.

[TomScrut]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The problem back then was making too much, the capital was tied up all in warehouse stock. The risk in 2022 is not enough models, the capital being all tied up in tooling investment, little produced to sell, but overheads still chewing the bottom line… a war of financial attrition, rather than lower prices… if a company goes under yes a collectors frenzy might occur as it’ll be a few years before the tooling re-emerges.

 

Exactly. People seem to want the companies to sit on stock until they are ready to buy whatever it is they are after.

 

I think the thing is that it is difficult to decide what is going to sell and what isn't. Some stuff seems to hang around for ages and some stuff flies off the shelves. If they over egg it on something they are stuck with them/end up giving them away. One of the companies getting most stick for prices etc is Bachmann, but the sizes of runs they do at the moment tend to sell out reasonably quickly (faster than anyone elses runs I think, excluding the made to order manufacturers) and will make money as they'd not do them otherwise.

 

One that is interesting (I think) on second hand prices is the NMT. They fetched really strong money before the latest Hornby release, and older models (from time periods not relevant to the new one) still do, but the power cars and last 2 coaches seem to be hanging around. The 3 from the 2019 disappeared before 2020. I have however on Facebook seen MK3s running in PLPR trains, and mk2s with NMT power cars (the latter of which I do think happens IRL very occasionally) so maybe the market isn't going to be 1:1 sales on power cars and coaches.

[newbryford]

4 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

 I have however on Facebook seen MK3s running in PLPR trains, and mk2s with NMT power cars (the latter of which I do think happens IRL very occasionally) so maybe the market isn't going to be 1:1 sales on power cars and coaches.

 

There aren't any Mk3 PLPR vehicles (except those in the NMT).

PLPR1-4 are Mk2.

HST power car and Mk2/Mk1 formations are now quite common.

 

 

 

And a UTU coach (ex Mk1 EMU) with ex-Caley BUOs and a NVA motorail van.

 

MENTOR/PLPR/HSTRC/BSO

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by newbryford

[TomScrut]

42 minutes ago, newbryford said:

There aren't any Mk3 PLPR vehicles (except those in the NMT).

 

Exactly my point, although I didn't really make myself clear. It's that I have seen videos of people running mk3s in non NMT test trains on their layouts, which they don't in real life. So the sales of coaches might not be directly related to power car sales if people choose (rule 1 and all that) to run mk3s without the power cars or the NMT power cars with mk2s.

 

44 minutes ago, newbryford said:

HST power car and Mk2/Mk1 formations are now quite common.

 

I am aware of this but has it happened with the NMT power cars? I think I have seen pics of a mk2 thrown into the NMT but not the NMT power cars on other test trains.

 

One thing is for sure, a properly tooled NMT would be nice, although probably cost prohibitive (especially as the details change quite often on it IIRC)

[newbryford]

6 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Exactly my point, although I didn't really make myself clear. It's that I have seen videos of people running mk3s in non NMT test trains on their layouts, which they don't in real life. So the sales of coaches might not be directly related to power car sales if people choose (rule 1 and all that) to run mk3s without the power cars or the NMT power cars with mk2s.

 

 

I am aware of this but has it happened with the NMT power cars? I think I have seen pics of a mk2 thrown into the NMT but not the NMT power cars on other test trains.

 

One thing is for sure, a properly tooled NMT would be nice, although probably cost prohibitive (especially as the details change quite often on it IIRC)

 

The original NMT formation had two Mk2s as 977993/977994 weren't ready. (Mk2s were 977997 and 999550 IIRC)

And a few years ago, it had MENTOR plus Mk2s for about 10 weeks. Flickr pic.

 

AFAIIA, yellow Mk3 have not run in non-NMT test formations - excepting the few test moves that used the Mk3 DVTs and 67s.

[Patriot87003]

On 05/12/2021 at 15:26, newbryford said:

AFAIIA, yellow Mk3 have not run in non-NMT test formations - excepting the few test moves that used the Mk3 DVTs and 67s.

There’s one occasion that I know of where the NMT Mk3’s ran loco-hauled without power cars …

 

I worked for a while advising the HST/Mk3 replacement development studies (later to become IEP/Class 8xx). One key feature was the gauging/size of the vehicles as the new vehicles were proposed to be up to 26m long, and track interval data (distance between tracks) was key to understanding passing clearances and room available (or not!).

 

One of the NMT Mk3’s is fitted with a laser scanning system that collects track interval data. For a period of time the NMT went on a bit of a jolly away from it’s routine/timetabled routes to collect data for other routes sections/potential IEP routes. One challenge we faced was the DfT originally thinking that Anglia maybe ideal for IEP, therefore required track interval data to be collected. However, while Mk3’s were already route cleared along many Anglian routes, the Class 43 Power Car’s are not route cleared (such as Liverpool St - Norwich).

 

The team that manages the NMT rose to the challenge though and used loco’s top-n-tailed for a few shifts to take the NMT Mk3’s on a jolly around Anglia to collect the data (during 2007 from memory).

 

Back to the Hornby HST … January 10th will be interesting to see what is revealed with respect to the HST and which liveries maybe next. Also whether the new coupling/detailing will be fitted to the 2021 announced HST’s that have not yet arrived (including the R40162 DVT).

 

I’m also interested to see the robustness/reliability of the new coupling arrangement in ‘push’ mode with a full rake (especially on gradients/complex geometry). Model HST’s typically spend 50% of their time ‘pushing’ … I’ve always found the current Hornby HST’s to be reliable in terms of both performance and coupling reliability; with tension lock or with Hunt Elite magnetic couplings.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Patriot87003 said:

I’ve always found the current Hornby HST’s to be reliable in terms of both performance and coupling reliability; with tension lock or with Hunt Elite magnetic couplings.

 

Although I do think that the normal mk3s are better than the SD ones with kinematics when being pushed.

[stonojnr]

4 hours ago, Patriot87003 said:

 However, while Mk3’s were already route cleared along many Anglian routes, the Class 43 Power Car’s are not route cleared (such as Liverpool St - Norwich).

 

The team that manages the NMT rose to the challenge though and used loco’s top-n-tailed for a few shifts to take the NMT Mk3’s on a jolly around Anglia to collect the data (during 2007 from memory).

 

 

 

whatever gauging issues were there in 2007, were solved by 2011/12 as the Class43 Power car NMT version was definitely running to Norwich and through Ipswich on the mainline, dont think it ever ventured out on the branch lines, and the NMT is more likely still to be spotted with Class37s top n tailing it on its visits to Anglian routes even now, but there was a HST tour that went to some of the North Norfolk routes some years back.

 

But Id always assumed it was a driver route knowledge thing, there not being many drivers with Anglian route knowledge and Class43 driving, than a limitation on the Class43s themselves, but I know NR do change their minds on gauging, even when nothing much appears to have changed on a route.

 

keeping a Hornby context though, the Mk3s on the GEML were Mk3as or Mk3bs, not the Mk3s of the HST without buffer beams

 

[Patriot87003]

12 hours ago, stonojnr said:

 

whatever gauging issues were there in 2007, were solved by 2011/12 as the Class43 Power car NMT version was definitely running to Norwich and through Ipswich on the mainline, dont think it ever ventured out on the branch lines, and the NMT is more likely still to be spotted with Class37s top n tailing it on its visits to Anglian routes even now, but there was a HST tour that went to some of the North Norfolk routes some years back.

 

But Id always assumed it was a driver route knowledge thing, there not being many drivers with Anglian route knowledge and Class43 driving, than a limitation on the Class43s themselves, but I know NR do change their minds on gauging, even when nothing much appears to have changed on a route.

 

keeping a Hornby context though, the Mk3s on the GEML were Mk3as or Mk3bs, not the Mk3s of the HST without buffer beams

 

For my sins … I used to be a gauging engineer for a few years!

 

Just seeing the Sectional Appendix, the Class 43 Power Cars are still not allowed / not route cleared along the GEML to Norwich. However, thanks for the info about the Class 43 Power Cars having made it to Norwich during 2011 … I’ve  had a Google and seen a clip on YouTube of the power cars at Norwich, also a pic of Flickr of them at Ipswich.

 

It therefore looks like one possibility is that the visit during 2011 was a special run/jolly for the PC’s, perhaps with a special temporary route clearance certificate. These often include a long list of restrictions such as speed restrictions past tight clearance locations, platforms/line that are prohibited (weaving/special pathing required) such as where platform coping stones/edges are tight or high, or even adjacent line blocks (to prevent another train passing if passing clearances are tight).

 

Certain bits and bobs attached to the bogies of the Power Cars do require additional clearances compared to other vehicles. Regarding the Mk3’s, only modified Mk3’s (and modified Mk3 DVT’s) are currently route cleared along the GEML; the mod being those fitted with a centre pivot lateral bump stop (to reduce the amount of lateral movement).

 

So it’s not just NR changing their mind or the asset condition/size changing … vehicles can also be modified and change! 

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Patriot87003 said:

So it’s not just NR changing their mind or the asset condition/size changing … vehicles can also be modified and change! 

 

 

Sometimes restrictions have been added because a line has not been confirmed as unchanged after relaying /  tamping etc. where it was known tolerances were tight. A safety first approach in such cases seems quite reasonable.

Roy

[Bob83a]

At about 16:55 in the latest edition of the Hornby A Model World (no 9) on the table when discussing the P2 CAD is what appears to be a class 43 power car. I cannot see the bogie mounted tension lock coupling but the bogie does seemed to be slightly turned away. There is a name plate with a red background and a logo of some sort above it but I cannot read it.

 

Is this possibly a new version or possibly the class 43 DVT for the Mk4 sets