Church bells as wagon loads - UK prototype practice?

[jonhall]

 

An idle question.... 

 

 I was given one or these https://www.lindt.co.uk/lindt-gold-reindeer-milk-chocolate-100g and having scoffed the chocolate I was idly podering the potential of the bell as a wagon load, but shortly after forgot all about it, for a few days, then in this video, what do I find, but bells on wagons!

 

 

A quick google only reveals this photo 

 

(which is frankly better than I was expecting) but is anyone aware of others? Is loose in an open (presumably packed with straw) the typical way?

 

Jon 

[The Johnster]

It would depend on the size of the bell of course, and the really big ones, while rare, would probably need a Weltrol or Lowmac.  What sort of size do the LIndt bells scale out at?  Bells big enough to require a complete wagon to themselves would, I imagine, be loaded much like any other large item, on to a flat or low-sided wagon like a lowfit, and lashed down with ropes on a straw bed.  They are massive and at the same time delicate and prone to cracking, and would I reckon likely be under tarps as well.  Smaller ones, the size of most church or town hall clock bells, would be packed in straw in crates.

 

It's a good recycling of packaging idea, and not too far fetched, but unless you have a brass or bronze foundry on your layout, or assumed to be nearby, needs to be occasional rather than regular.  Good excuse for a specialist brass or bronze foundry, though, which could be a fairly small one with a private siding.  Coke and casting sand in, finished product out, in vans for the smaller everyday items.  As well as bells, specialised items like ship's propellers could be produced, and these can be pretty big if they are for battleships or ocean liners as well.

[Derekl]

24 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

As well as bells, specialised items like ship's propellers could be produced, and these can be pretty big if they are for battleships or ocean liners as well.

 

Good idea, but thing like ship's propellers come from outfits like Sheffield Forgemasters, the size of which is likely to more than dominate the average model railway.

The bells seem to be going to a church in Uckfield, which is presumably a bit of a one off. Interesting that all but one are placed, as one might expect, on end, but one seems to be placed on its side.

[Wheatley]

The chalk inscription on the cart reads "Uckfield parish Church bells before being recast 1905" which might explain the lack of straw packing and the one lying on its side - these are the scrap ones.  

[Izzy]

There were two main church bell foundries in the UK. The Whitechapel bell foundry, and the Loughborough bell foundry. The former closed in 2017 after about 400/500 years. The caption with those at Uckfield states they are going for re-casting, this might account for how they are being loaded. Re-casting wasn't common, mainly when bells cracked, or with a whole ring, as appears here, to get them re-cast/re-hung as a tuneful 'ring', if they might have come together as odd ones or not just cast right originally. All this was rare because of the very high cost. I would guess the new/re-cast bells would get much greater care on the return journey.

 

Apart from at the bell foundries these sights would be rare, once/twice in a lifetime most probably. Those at my local church, a ring of eight, which I used to ring and help look after, have not moved since being hung in the late 1800's. They are in a steel frame (many are wooden), with just the odd 'clapper' being replaced IIRC.

 

The ropes on the other hand have been replaced/spliced many times down the years. My dear late father, being a former sailor, and then bellringer and churchwarden, was quite good at this.

 

I should add that most church bells like this may be hung in a 'ring' of 4/5 up to 10/12 in the very largest cathederals. The size/weight of the smallest 'treble' might be around a few hundredweight, with the heaviest 'tenor' being up to just around the ton, 15-21cwt, the maximum a single capable bellringer can cope with. When 'rung' the bells rotate through over 360degrees, so there is quite a bit of force in action. The average ring is 6 and sometimes 8. Many smaller churches are 5.

 

Hope this is of use and interest.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

 Just seen this whilst watching the Dad's Army movie (old version) where they're taking away the vicar's bells to be melted down for "the war effort".  

 

 

 

Jason

[rodent279]

Taylor's Bellfoundry, in Loughborough, isn't far off the GC, but not rail connected. I'd agree, casting/re-casting of bells would not have been a regular occurrence, back in the day, it's probably more common now. I think it's quite conceivable that bells could be moved in either open wagons, or on weltrols, especially if going to a tower some distance from either Loughborough or Whitechapel.

[The Johnster]

As towns and cities expanded throughout the 19th and the first decades of the 20th century, new churches were built in large quantities which must have had an effect on the demand for and production of bells for them.  And of course the majority of steam and motor ships built during this period were small to medium sized merchant ships, coasters, and fishing vessels, that would not require huge propellers.  Brass was the preferred material because of it's abiliyt to resist corrosion in salt water.

[Steamport Southport]

The GWR had propeller wagons with the cradle built in.

 

MORELs for marine propellers. There was also the AERO aeroplane propeller wagons.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/galmcdonald7.html

 

No idea what BEAVERs transported, but I will say "nice BEAVER".....  

 

 

Jason

[Paul H Vigor]

Els Bells! 

[Paul H Vigor]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 Just seen this whilst watching the Dad's Army movie (old version) where they're taking away the vicar's bells to be melted down for "the war effort".  

 

 

 

Jason

If I recall, they let him keep one?

[Paul H Vigor]

5 hours ago, Izzy said:

There were two main church bell foundries in the UK. The Whitechapel bell foundry, and the Loughborough bell foundry. The former closed in 2017 after about 400/500 years. The caption with those at Uckfield states they are going for re-casting, this might account for how they are being loaded. Re-casting wasn't common, mainly when bells cracked, or with a whole ring, as appears here, to get them re-cast/re-hung as a tuneful 'ring', if they might have come together as odd ones or not just cast right originally. All this was rare because of the very high cost. I would guess the new/re-cast bells would get much greater care on the return journey.

 

Apart from at the bell foundries these sights would be rare, once/twice in a lifetime most probably. Those at my local church, a ring of eight, which I used to ring and help look after, have not moved since being hung in the late 1800's. They are in a steel frame (many are wooden), with just the odd 'clapper' being replaced IIRC.

 

The ropes on the other hand have been replaced/spliced many times down the years. My dear late father, being a former sailor, and then bellringer and churchwarden, was quite good at this.

 

I should add that most church bells like this may be hung in a 'ring' of 4/5 up to 10/12 in the very largest cathederals. The size/weight of the smallest 'treble' might be around a few hundredweight, with the heaviest 'tenor' being up to just around the ton, 15-21cwt, the maximum a single capable bellringer can cope with. When 'rung' the bells rotate through over 360degrees, so there is quite a bit of force in action. The average ring is 6 and sometimes 8. Many smaller churches are 5.

 

Hope this is of use and interest.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

I learnt on a ring of 8. Never broke a stay! 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Paul H Vigor

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

If I recall, they let him keep one?

 

Yes. As would have been common as they were used as a warning of invasion.

 

But not before he decided to have "one last pull".... 

 

 

I think it's only the vicar and Pike that are still around.

 

And Michael Knowles who was in a few episodes, the film and the radio series, but is better known as the Captain out of It Ain't Half Hot Mum.

 

 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Izzy said:

I should add that most church bells like this may be hung in a 'ring' of 4/5 up to 10/12 in the very largest cathederals. The size/weight of the smallest 'treble' might be around a few hundredweight, with the heaviest 'tenor' being up to just around the ton, 15-21cwt, the maximum a single capable bellringer can cope with. When 'rung' the bells rotate through over 360degrees, so there is quite a bit of force in action. The average ring is 6 and sometimes 8. Many smaller churches are 5.

 

With the heaviest bell at around one ton, a peal of eight would be comfortably within the capacity of a 10 ton open wagon - or a 2 ton dray, as seen in the photo. Certainly packed with straw. Would the load be sheeted? If so, it's going to end up looking no different to any other sheeted load...

 

Link to an old US table of bell dimensions. This gives, for a 5,000 lb bell (2¼ tons or thereabouts), a diameter of 5'2" and a frame size of 6'10" which is still well within the capacity of a 10 ton open and well within the loading gauge, too. So I think in general talk of weltrols etc. is misplaced.

 

However, I note the peal at Liverpool Cathedral, cast at Whitechapel and first rung in 1951, is said to be the heaviest in the world and the largest bell, Great George, is 14½ tons and 9'6" in diameter. It is the largest bell outside London and hence a candidate for the largest bell moved by rail in Great Britain, though I suppose it could well have gone to Liverpool by sea or road. It would, I think, be just out of gauge.

 

Sorry if all this wagon load pessimism does not chime with your appealing idea!

Edited January 1, 2022 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

Got this photo in my folder of cameo options. 

 

Caption:  "Rothwell, Northamptonshire, England. New bells for Rothwell Parish Church delivered on the wagons of the Midland Railway Company". Source: Getty images. Embedding allowed.

 

[jwealleans]

At least one of the pregrouping companies had a Bell wagon.   Well before your time, I'd have thought, though, Jon.

[Izzy]

7 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

I learnt on a ring of 8. Never broke a stay! 

Replaced a few of those in my time……

[Mikkel]

16 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

At least one of the pregrouping companies had a Bell wagon.   Well before your time, I'd have thought, though, Jon.

 

The NER seems to have had one:

 

 

Source: https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2020-03/Oxford Publishing Company Locomotive%2C Carriage and Wagon Microfilm List.pdf

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Mikkel

[Bucoops]

There may be others - have you looked under Dung carriers?

[jwealleans]

Now I've had time to look, here's the LNER lettering diagram for it:

 

 

I can't bring a photograph to mind and I'm not sure I can see how the upper body was constructed from that outline.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

I read it as a framework supporting a bar, presumably to which the bells were secured. You can see knee-braces connecting the ends to the bed, so there must have been load on the bar. I’m imagining a bell hung  with its mouth a couple of inches off the deck, surrounded by soft stuff, so that it could move slightly, but not get shocked, then maybe sheeted overall.

 

In fact, doesn’t it have a dropped box in the centre of the deck too? A large bell would dangle into that, surrounded by soft packing, I imagine.

 

It is really for bells, not some other dangly load, is it? It just struck me that ‘bell’ could be the telegraphic code. Toad vans, weren’t designed to carry toads, after all?

 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Nick Lawson]

Quote

The Whitechapel bell foundry,

@IzzyI remember hazily that at the time of the US Bicentennial celebrations in 1976 that some US satirists proposed suing Whitechapel for defective workmanship regarding the crack in the Liberty Bell. Whitechapel responded that if the bell was returned in the original packaging they would see what they could do.

[Welchester]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

However, I note the peal at Liverpool Cathedral, cast at Whitechapel and first rung in 1951, is said to be the heaviest in the world and the largest bell, Great George, is 14½ tons and 9'6" in diameter. It is the largest bell outside London and hence a candidate for the largest bell moved by rail in Great Britain, though I suppose it could well have gone to Liverpool by sea or road. It would, I think, be just out of gauge.

 

It looks as though Great George was transported by road.

[jim.snowdon]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

With the heaviest bell at around one ton, a peal of eight would be comfortably within the capacity of a 10 ton open wagon - or a 2 ton dray, as seen in the photo. Certainly packed with straw. Would the load be sheeted? If so, it's going to end up looking no different to any other sheeted load...

 

Link to an old US table of bell dimensions. This gives, for a 5,000 lb bell (2¼ tons or thereabouts), a diameter of 5'2" and a frame size of 6'10" which is still well within the capacity of a 10 ton open and well within the loading gauge, too. So I think in general talk of weltrols etc. is misplaced.

 

However, I note the peal at Liverpool Cathedral, cast at Whitechapel and first rung in 1951, is said to be the heaviest in the world and the largest bell, Great George, is 14½ tons and 9'6" in diameter. It is the largest bell outside London and hence a candidate for the largest bell moved by rail in Great Britain, though I suppose it could well have gone to Liverpool by sea or road. It would, I think, be just out of gauge.

 

Sorry if all this wagon load pessimism does not chime with your appealing idea!

All but the very largest bells would have been within the gauge limits for carriage by rail, and even the heaviest were within load limits. More pertinent, with the really large bells, may have been the logistics of getting them to and from a railway wagon in the first place. Neither Taylors nor Whitechapel Foundry (before it closed) were rail served, so whatever happened, the bells had to be got onto a road wagon in the first place. Ditto at the other end, as I can't think of any religious (or academic) establishments that had private sidings. There has to come a point where, even allowing for the rather more primitive forms of road vehicle available, it is more economic to get it on a road vehicle and leave it there for the whole journey.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I read it as a framework supporting a bar, presumably to which the bells were secured. You can see knee-braces connecting the ends to the bed, so there must have been load on the bar. I’m imagining a bell hung  with its mouth a couple of inches off the deck, surrounded by soft stuff, so that it could move slightly, but not get shocked, then maybe sheeted overall.

 

In fact, doesn’t it have a dropped box in the centre of the deck too? A large bell would dangle into that, surrounded by soft packing, I imagine.

 

It is really for bells, not some other dangly load, is it? It just struck me that ‘bell’ could be the telegraphic code. Toad vans, weren’t designed to carry toads, after all?

 

 

I also wondered whether it was just a telegraphic code.  But if it is for a bell, would it have been constructed/modified specially  with one particular bell in mind? 

I can't see them suspending the bell from the bar.  If it's  a dropped centre, would that be to accommodate the clapper?  My assumption is that the clapper would be shipped separately.  Or would the bell be sat in it upside down in the well with the (removable?) bar as something to clamp it down - surely two adjustable bars rather than one centrally would make sense.