Michael Hodgson Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 minute ago, BernardTPM said: Nuclear power stations still make the electricity with steam turbines. The most turn-on, turn-off power plants are the pump storage Hydro-electric plants. In effect very large batteries. Nuclear stations are still faster as when not generating can be kept in a state of readiness (steam up) so that they can be turned on quickly, a gas station still has to burn gas to do that. But Pumped Storage is as you say faster and effectively a big battery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 13 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: ...and in the news today, All Smart Meters in the UK will have to be replaced, due to the plan to switch off the 2G and 3G mobile networks. SMETS 1 completely replaced. SMETS 2 some replaced, others modified with new communications modules. . Hardly news warning about this for a while now thats why I’ve not bothered with one as they are obsolete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: There has already been talk in the press about treating that time frame differently, with the expected increase in EV charging looming. Even without Smart Meters, you may be on a completely different peak / off-peak tariff, with different timings, to your next door neighbour. Most of us probably are already. Smart Meters could allow even more flexibility in pricing periods and tariffs. We could get to position, at some point in the future, where variable, dynamic pricing affects each household/property differently and at varying times of the day, depending on the actual network demand, time of the day or year etc. . Dynamic pricing is possible without so-called smart meters. The frequency of the grid varies very slightly according to the load, so during the day the frequency drops to 49.95* hertz, and overnight increases to 50.05* hertz, I guess this is due to turbines slowing under load. All a meter has to do is monitor the frequency, and the higher the frequency the less it charges. No communication to outside sources required. I think there may even be some tumble dryers on the market that can use this method, you can program the dryer to start overnight, and it won't turn on until the frequency is above 50.045* hertz or whatever. *These figures are just guesses to illustrate the point, actual values may be different. Edited January 3, 2022 by Titan 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 12 minutes ago, Titan said: Dynamic pricing is possible without so-called smart meters. The frequency of the grid varies very slightly according to the load, so during the day the frequency drops to 49.95* hertz, and overnight increases to 50.05* hertz, I guess this is due to turbines slowing under load. All a meter has to do is monitor the frequency, and the higher the frequency the less it charges. No communication to outside sources required. I think there may even be some tumble dryers on the market that can use this method, you can program the dryer to start overnight, and it won't turn on until the frequency is above 50.045* hertz or whatever. *These figures are just guesses to illustrate the point, actual values may be different. Also talk of frequency monitoring chips in appliances (fridges, washing machines etc) that will turn them off when the frequency falls below a certain value. Don't you just look forward to our ever more expensive, hyper controlled dystopian future !! Brit15 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said: Nuclear is one of the better ways of generating power I didn’t say otherwise. My point was that it is a first class base-load generator, so enables low off-peak costs, rather than that it is expensive. The 23p/8p tariff mentioned earlier sounds like EDF’s one, which is specifically matched to their nuclear capacity in France. If nuclear was out of the mix, low off peak tariffs would be much more difficult to support. Edited January 3, 2022 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 26 minutes ago, Titan said: Dynamic pricing is possible without so-called smart meters...... Indeed, but I was alluding to more sophisticated monitoring and pricing mechanisms, whereby each individual property independently switches tariffs at variable times, also taking into account that property's own consumption profiles and any bespoke tariff arrangements they may have with their supplier. It may be a long way off, if possible. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 50 minutes ago, RFS said: Do you have a link to the news article about this? It was an article in the Torygraph today. It might be behind a paywall.... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/03/careless-civil-servants-cause-chaos-smart-meters/ "Careless civil servants are about to cause chaos with smart meters A determination to turn off 2G means that millions of the devices will have to be replaced - again" "Millions of smart meters in the UK - including the shiny new ones currently being installed - will need to be upgraded. Again. The current meters superseded millions of now-obsolete ones that were installed in the early part of the last decade, so some consumers will have experienced three upgrades in just a few years. Of course, the consumer foots the bill for the bungling. The last estimate of the cost was £420 per household. The upcoming wave of replacements is happening because Whitehall has decided that the UK needs to turn off its 2G and 3G mobile networks. The Government can’t compel the four national mobile operators to do so, but all four have agreed a sunset date with the Ministry of Fun, the Department for Digital, Media, Culture and Sport. On its own, this decision makes some sense. Physics decrees that some parts of the airwaves are much more useful than others. Radio waves go through walls, trees and fog much better at lower frequencies, and these frequencies were the first to be used by terrestrial TV broadcasters and the 2G digital mobile networks. Spectrum that many people no longer use can then be “re-farmed” for use by modern devices. One bonus of this may be a more competitive broadband market, as you’ll be able to use a beefy 5G signal indoors. The United States completed its 2G switch-off two years ago, and 3G will close by the end of this year. Unfortunately, the latest smart meters require those 2G and 3G networks to communicate back to the energy supplier. And while modern SMETS2 specification meters have a separate communication unit, upgrading this part alone nevertheless requires a physical site visit to be performed. Smart meter advantages for us seem ever more elusive: in a 2019 cost-benefit analysis, the Business Department included CO2 emissions reductions and “air quality” as wins. It’s really about “demand side management”, or shifting us to more off-peak usage. This doesn’t mean disconnecting domestic consumers, who are actually legally very well protected, although small businesses are a different story. But in reality our behaviour is dictated by need - when we need electricity, we use it. Attempting to tinker with demand when our energy crisis has been caused by a failure to supply enough seems like a diversion. The first smart meter specification was intended for a small scale trial and was never supposed to be widely adopted. But the UK then seized upon an EU energy directive (2009/72/EC) and gold-plated it. In 2012, the Commission said it wanted 80pc of homes to have a smart meter by 2020. he UK insisted it could do 100pc, and rushed ahead. A big error - this design of meter stopped being “smart” and sending back readings when you changed supplier. But the junk device still found its way into 9m homes. Hence the need for a proper, UK-appropriate specification, called SMETS2. Much of this is well thought out, but the consortium behind it, the DCC, has acknowledged that obsolescence is built in. “SMETS1 and SMETS2 assets have a 15-year life,” it notes. For those of us who rely on them, that’s a big ask, as well as being a continuous rolling expense for consumers. Perhaps technology may come to the rescue. Just as it’s possible to emulate an old 1980s 8-bit micro computer game in a modern computer, it’s technically feasible to emulate a 2G network inside a more modern 5G network. But this work is in its infancy, and would require keeping a small slice of the 2G frequency bands reserved for today’s meters. Such emulation technology is not proven or widely deployed, and civil servants do not appear aware of its existence. Most galling of all is that Whitehall was warned, and key administrators were in the room when those warnings were made. Representatives of both Ofcom and DCMS sit on the UK’s Spectrum Policy Forum, the expert body which in 2019 reported that 2G was far more widely used than many people realised, and should be considered national critical infrastructure. For example, car telematics systems now also use 2G and 3G, as well as the eCall safety system that has been compulsory in every car sold in the EU since 2018. Two years ago, the Forum’s Tony Lavendar, a member of the forum's steering board, was very clear. “2G enables smart metering and the mobile phones used by many vulnerable people in society. We need to think through the alternatives for these services before switching them off,” he said. The Forum recommended 2039 as a date to stop using the networks. But in Whitehall, nobody wanted to be the Bad News Bear. I have a theory why. Civil servants love having new and fashionable things on their resumés. 5G is sexy and is believed to enhance one’s career prospects in the private sector, they reason. Who wants “kept an ancient technology going for a bit longer” on their CV? One answer might be to create a Department of Critical National Infrastructure – but Departments like Business, Transport and MiniFun itself would only yield up the favourite part of their fiefdoms very reluctantly." . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said: Nuclear is one of the better ways of generating power. ..... The Germans don't think so...at least their recent governments have decided against it. They have shut down 3 of their last 6 nuclear plants, over the Xmas & New Year period. The last 3 will be shut down by the end of this year. Mr Putin is very happy. https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/germany-shuts-three-its-last-six-nuclear-plants-2022-01-01/ . 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted January 3, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2022 6 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: It was an article in the Torygraph today. It might be behind a paywall.... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/03/careless-civil-servants-cause-chaos-smart-meters/. Found an earlier article on this subject which says the switch-off is not till 2033... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/12/08/2g-3g-phased-2033-blow-smart-meter-roll/ 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Hmmm, a lot of tendentious statements in there. I think that dismissing demand-side management in the way it does is particularly nonsensical. Adjusting tariff by frequency BTW is a fairly crude and iffy method, because it takes no account of what generation mix is being used, and that’s what really sets costs, and should set prices if we want to be efficient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 i 11 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: Indeed, but I was alluding to more sophisticated monitoring and pricing mechanisms, whereby each individual property independently switches tariffs at variable times, also taking into account that property's own consumption profiles and any bespoke tariff arrangements they may have with their supplier. It may be a long way off, if possible. . It's certainly technically possible, using smart meter technology.. They can instruct the the meter to shut off some circuits and not others, so you could have it charging your EV when it suits the generating system, but still able to keep the lights and TV on, using another circuit. And if you're worried your EV won't get charged overnight to let you go to work/do a long journey, it would also be possible to allow you to charge it regardless, albeit at a higher price. When my parents first had night storage heaters, they were given a white meter for those which allowed them cheaper electricity overnight, but it also allowed them an "afternoon boost" so the heaters were warmer in the evening. They successfully resisted several subsequent attempts by the electricity companies to switch them to a different tariff called Economy 7, because although this was cheaper than full rate it did not provide the afternoon boost. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 minute ago, RFS said: Found an earlier article on this subject which says the switch-off is not till 2033... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/12/08/2g-3g-phased-2033-blow-smart-meter-roll/ 2033 is 11 years away. In major infrastructure planning terms, that's not that far off really, when they're only at the early stages of discussing it. By the time the various interested parties have all had their say and decisions about a firm plan and timetable are agreed, we could be only 5 years from then. Meanwhile, technology will have marched on way past government plans, by that date. . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) The fans of Greeta will have us living in Caves here in the UK soon, Caves with NO wood fires also !!!!! Wonder what this guy is calculating on the wall ? Meanwhile, over in China, https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/china-fires-up-giant-coal-power-plant-face-calls-cuts-2021-12-28/ SHANGHAI, Dec 28 (Reuters) - China, under fire for approving new coal power stations as other countries try to curb greenhouse gases, has completed the first 1,000-megawatt unit of the Shanghaimiao plant, the biggest of its kind under construction in the country. Beijing has pledged to start reducing coal consumption, but will do so only after 2025, giving developers considerable leeway to raise capacity further in the coming four years. A report published this month by researchers at China's State Grid Corporation said energy security concerns mean the country is likely to build as much as 150 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired power capacity over the 2021-2025 period, bringing the total to 1,230 GW. Total UK demand right now is 31.1 GW https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?&_k=vrso6k Brit15 Edited January 3, 2022 by APOLLO info added 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 There are plenty of ways of looking at this, one being that China consumes about a third less energy per capita than the U.K. The US meanwhile consumes significantly more than twice as much as the U.K. per capita. God alone knows what the solution is, and so far he seems reluctant to share it with us. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 I’ve recently gone on a smart EV tariff with Octopus this is 5p/KWh overnight 0030 to 0430 daytime is standard rate 24p/KWh so yes, such deals are still available and there will always be an excess of power at night whilst the wind blows and the nuclei collide Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, black and decker boy said: whilst the wind blows and the nuclei collide Very chilling book by Raymond Briggs. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted January 3, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Nearholmer said: The 23p/8p tariff mentioned earlier sounds like EDF’s one, which is specifically matched to their nuclear capacity in France. Yep - you got that in one! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hibelroad Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 3 hours ago, spikey said: You know, I'd swear that when Windscale went online it was announced that electricity was soon going to be so cheap to produce that it wouldn't be worth metering. I saw it on the television, so it must have been true ... I think the idea that electricity would be free was based on fusion reactors. Some paper published a front page in the late 50s saying that now fission reactors are producing power fusion reactors cannot be far behind. Just goes to show how wrong they can be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Queen opens Windscale - behold the "Free Electricity" meter !!!!!!!!!! Bring back the Central Electricity Generating Board (CEGB) and The old area electricity distribution boards !!!!! Brit15 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 I remember one of EdF's early demand management schemes. Consumers were offered an incentive to accept supply cuts at short/ no notice, usually between 17:00 and 19:00. This worked reasonably well during the summer, as many people either ate later, or had barbeques. Come the season of mists and mellow fruitfulness, however, and the drawback of the idea became evident. In many rural areas, there was a large influx of urbanites who came to help on the grape harvest. Around 17:30, they'd return to their accommodation, wanting showers and food; the problem was no hot water and no means to cook hot food, or at least to keep it warm. As you might expect, the experiment was quickly buried... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Jonboy Posted January 3, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, APOLLO said: The fans of Greeta will have us living in Caves here in the UK soon, Caves with NO wood fires also !!!!! Wonder what this guy is calculating on the wall ? Meanwhile, over in China, https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/china-fires-up-giant-coal-power-plant-face-calls-cuts-2021-12-28/ SHANGHAI, Dec 28 (Reuters) - China, under fire for approving new coal power stations as other countries try to curb greenhouse gases, has completed the first 1,000-megawatt unit of the Shanghaimiao plant, the biggest of its kind under construction in the country. Beijing has pledged to start reducing coal consumption, but will do so only after 2025, giving developers considerable leeway to raise capacity further in the coming four years. A report published this month by researchers at China's State Grid Corporation said energy security concerns mean the country is likely to build as much as 150 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired power capacity over the 2021-2025 period, bringing the total to 1,230 GW. Total UK demand right now is 31.1 GW https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?&_k=vrso6k Brit15 Wonder what happens if you could adjust the capacity/energy usage/demand for the tat under production (I’m looking at you Christmas crackers!!!) in China to its ultimate destination.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Nearholmer said: God alone knows what the solution is, and so far he seems reluctant to share it with us. The best statement on energy I've read for a long time. Brit15 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30801 Posted January 3, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2022 1 hour ago, APOLLO said: Queen opens Windscale - behold the "Free Electricity" meter !!!!!!!!!! Show that to the folks building Hinkley Point C... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Trainshed Terry Posted January 3, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2022 Smart Meters. My electricity company keep avoiding my request for a smart meter, as I have economy7 storage heaters. But the old heaters where replaced with the smart heaters back in June 2021. A much improved design over the old ones. Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamThomas Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 Originally off peak was switched using a time clock with a spring reserve, then via a signal carried on (IIRC) a BBC Long Wave Broadcast. AFAIK 1st generation "smart" meters used the 2/3G mobile network & were fairly basic. 2nd generation smart meters (again AFAIK) use their own communication network passing data from one to the otjer & back to some sort of central point. Some time ago I asked my electricity supplier a number of direct questions regarding smart meters including ; What radio frequency do they use & what radiated power do they emit. Do they/will they ever have the facility to limit the use of high power appliances (suitably equiped ones) during peak times. Do they/will they ever have the facility to disconnect the supply completely in the event of extra high peak times/not payment of bills. Still awaiting an answer. I expect that not only will the differential between on & off peak tarrifs be further erroded theit will be an additional "high demand" tarrif. My household already adjust their lifestyle to take account of the contribution the solar panel installation makes (not a lot this time of the year) but there is no way we will allow the supply of electricity to rule our lives. TBH, the more the environmentalist try to force us down this road the more we will resist it. I wonder how much NWR pay per kWh - bets it's nowhere near even what us consumers pay for the best off peak - however, I stand to be corrected. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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