"Cheap" Off Peak Electricity.

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

There's hope.

They say that Fusion is only 30 years away.

Mind you, they said that in the 1960's, 1970's, 1990's and 2000's..........

And some caveman probably looked up at the sun, looked at the fire outside the cave, and thought "Yep, got fire, must be on the right track, probably get that working here in 50 years." But the number of reports of useful steps recently does seem quite a big difference from previously.

 

Twenty years ago I'd have shrugged it off with what you're saying, but as of now I'm cautiously optimistic (although maybe biased because I'd like it in order to do away with generation methods I'm rather less keen on).

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

I once had a girlfriend whose new flat was very cold. She'd tried to turn the storage heaters on and when they didn't immediately get hot turned them back off assuming they were broken.

I laughed at her for that and things became even more frosty.

I've always thought storage heaters to be a bad idea from the 1970s that made less and less sense as time went on. If your house is empty during the day - as a lot are, or were until Covid hit - most of the heat is wasted and the radiators have little left to give in the evening when you need it most short of actually switching them on at the most expensive time of day.

 

They make sense for an office though as they are running out of heat just when the business is likely closing up anyway.

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Agreed.

If the huge amount of NG that's been used for electricity generation, had been ring fenced for domestic use only, how many tens of decades may it have lasted for?

Maybe another 100 years or more perhaps?

 

 

There's hope.

They say that Fusion is only 30 years away.

Mind you, they said that in the 1960's, 1970's, 1990's and 2000's...........

Short of fusion I've long thought that thorium reactors would be the way to go. No risk of runaway reactions and the military can't make things go bang with their waste. That's probably why few governments have looked at them seriously.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/02/16/the-thing-about-thorium-why-the-better-nuclear-fuel-may-not-get-a-chance/?sh=c12b2541d803

Edited January 4, 2022 by AndrueC

[APOLLO]

China again !!!

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a36630528/china-artificial-sun-breaks-fusion-world-record/

 

Being a retired gas engineer I know zero about Fusion (Other than but fusion welding of plastic gas pipes) !!

 

Brit15

[Fenman]

2 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

... However there's a small wrinkle that the standard for the CCS socket on virtually all new EVs in Europe doesn't include exporting. It's due in a year or two but for now only cars with Chademo can export.

 

It's already changing: the Hyundai Ioniq 5 can export from its CCS socket: V2L at the moment (so you can plug your fridge or tv into the car), but it is capable of V2G.

 

I vaguely remember there's a trial underway in The Netherlands to test it on a large scale, but when (as seems likely) it's confirmed, there'll be a software update to enable all existing cars to export to the grid.

 

The Kia EV6 (which is largely the same as the Ioniq 5 under the bodywork) can do the same.

 

Paul

 

 

 

[30801]

27 minutes ago, Fenman said:

 

It's already changing: the Hyundai Ioniq 5 can export from its CCS socket: V2L at the moment (so you can plug your fridge or tv into the car), but it is capable of V2G.

 

I found this road map of CCS V2G from Charin who define the CCS standard. Hyundai along with world + dog are members.

 

http://combined-charging-system.org/fileadmin/Downloads/Papers_and_Regulations/CharIN_Levels_Grid_Integration.pdf

[Fenman]

9 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

I found this road map of CCS V2G from Charin who define the CCS standard. Hyundai along with world + dog are members.

 

http://combined-charging-system.org/fileadmin/Downloads/Papers_and_Regulations/CharIN_Levels_Grid_Integration.pdf

 

That road map dates from 2018: all the current indications I'm seeing are that Hyundai will activate V2G in existing Ioniq 5s and EV6s sometime this year, and likely in the next few months.

 

Paul

 

[30801]

13 minutes ago, Fenman said:

That road map dates from 2018:

 

Because standards bodies are renowned for doing things ahead of schedule  The 2020 version of that document is mostly the same but omits dates.

There are lot of ducks to get in rows before all this rolls out.

[billbedford]

8 hours ago, Nick C said:

I'm glad you're not in charge of energy policy then - I wouldn't define three years as medium-term, that'd barely get us to the next election...

 

 

But there is at least 60 years worth of natural gas locked in the Bowland shales, and when it comes to energy it's a whole lot better to have something that's always there rather than dependent on the weather. 

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

But there is at least 60 years worth of natural gas locked in the Bowland shales, and when it comes to energy it's a whole lot better to have something that's always there rather than dependent on the weather. 

Nuclear for electricity, keep the gas for heating.

[pH]

On 03/01/2022 at 05:00, BernardTPM said:

The most turn-on, turn-off power plants are the pump storage Hydro-electric plants. In effect very large batteries.

 

On 03/01/2022 at 05:04, Michael Hodgson said:

But Pumped Storage is as you say faster and effectively a big battery. 

Not just pumped storage schemes. Most hydro installations can be turned off and on virtually instantaneously. And because of that, if cheaper power is available at any time, a hydro station can be temporarily shut down till the situation changes.

[Reorte]

29 minutes ago, pH said:

 

Not just pumped storage schemes. Most hydro installations can be turned off and on virtually instantaneously. And because of that, if cheaper power is available at any time, a hydro station can be temporarily shut down till the situation changes.

Not only that, they can also be restarted without already being connected to a functioning grid (or hefty localised generator), if the worst comes to the worst.

[Nick C]

9 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

But there is at least 60 years worth of natural gas locked in the Bowland shales, and when it comes to energy it's a whole lot better to have something that's always there rather than dependent on the weather. 

That's not proven, only estimates - and is reliant on whether it's actually commercially feasible to extract it, without destroying the environment in the process. Even then, it's not "always there" - when it's gone, it's gone. Whereas energy directly or indirectly from the sun really is "always there" - or at least, when we get to the point where it isn't, we'll have bigger problems in that the Earth won't be here either...

[Reorte]

30 minutes ago, Nick C said:

That's not proven, only estimates - and is reliant on whether it's actually commercially feasible to extract it, without destroying the environment in the process. Even then, it's not "always there" - when it's gone, it's gone. Whereas energy directly or indirectly from the sun really is "always there" - or at least, when we get to the point where it isn't, we'll have bigger problems in that the Earth won't be here either...

Isn't that always the case with underground natural resources? You've got a relatively short amount of proven reserves, a considerably larger one of demonstrated to be there, total amount estimated, and a bigger still level of "indications are that there's probably stuff in this area."

 

We do tend to go through stuff at a ludicrous speed though. For an obviously visible example consider a quarry that has been closed for many decades but worked for a century or so, and how much smaller it is than what's been dug out in the last 20 years in one still operating (which in turn has been supplying much less local employment, albeit without the significant downsides of frequently blowing up its employees or dropping rocks on them).

Edited January 5, 2022 by Reorte

[BernardTPM]

On 03/01/2022 at 13:00, BernardTPM said:

The most turn-on, turn-off power plants are the pump storage Hydro-electric plants. In effect very large batteries.

 

9 hours ago, pH said:

Not just pumped storage schemes. Most hydro installations can be turned off and on virtually instantaneously. And because of that, if cheaper power is available at any time, a hydro station can be temporarily shut down till the situation changes.

The difference is that the pump-storage schemes were deliberately built to be turned on and off. Unlike a conventional hydro plant they aren't a primary power source but demand balancing devices.

Edited January 5, 2022 by BernardTPM

[pH]

11 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

 

The difference is that the pump-storage schemes were deliberately built to be turned on and off. Unlike a conventional hyrdo plant they aren't a primary power source but demand balancing devices.

I agree pumped storage schemes are usually built to supply power in the peaks. However, in a large enough system of conventional hydro plants, individual units in a dam, or even whole dams, can act as peak-handling units. And they can do this without the energy cost of pumping water ‘uphill’.

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, pH said:

I agree pumped storage schemes are usually built to supply power in the peaks. However, in a large enough system of conventional hydro plants, individual units in a dam, or even whole dams, can act as peak-handling units. And they can do this without the energy cost of pumping water ‘uphill’.

The pumping water uphill part isn't a cost, it's a fundamental part of the design, storing some of the energy generated that would otherwise be wasted, unused.

[pH]

3 minutes ago, Reorte said:

The pumping water uphill part isn't a cost, it's a fundamental part of the design, storing some of the energy generated that would otherwise be wasted, unused.

Yes, but the energy used in pumping is not made available to ‘customers’. In the situation I described, that energy is not used within the system, and is still available to ‘customers’.

[BernardTPM]

27 minutes ago, pH said:

I agree pumped storage schemes are usually built to supply power in the peaks.

Not 'usually' - it is there entire raison d'être. It is a simple way to balance demand. Very expensive to build in the first place, but very cost effective once in place (the small Ffestiniog plant can create a 360kW supply within 1 minute). The electricity used is excess to what 'customers' want, it is more efficient than batteries and without the problems of battery waste disposal.

Edited January 5, 2022 by BernardTPM

[pH]

We are talking about different situations. The provincial electricity company here generates over 90% of its power from hydro - that’s the situation I described. Pumped storage is employed in a mixed system, where some generation produces power surplus to current demand e.g. wind or thermal stations in periods of low demand. Use of that surplus energy which, as Reorte said would otherwise be wasted, to recharge pumped storage is a very sensible thing to do. However, it does mean some of that power is used within the system, whereas shutting down a hydro unit (or a whole dam) involves no loss of energy - it’s all still available in the water behind the dam.

[Metr0Land]

11 hours ago, Reorte said:

Isn't that always the case with underground natural resources? You've got a relatively short amount of proven reserves, a considerably larger one of demonstrated to be there, total amount estimated, and a bigger still level of "indications are that there's probably stuff in this area."

 

 

 

I recall back in the 1970's we were continually warned that 'we only have 10,000 days of oil left'.  How's that going then?

[billbedford]

23 hours ago, Reorte said:

Nuclear for electricity, keep the gas for heating.

 

There's talk of developing small high temperature nuclear reactors working at around 800ºC as a replacement for gas for industrial process heat. 

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

 

I recall back in the 1970's we were continually warned that 'we only have 10,000 days of oil left'.  How's that going then?

 

Its' been 10,000 days ever since the 70s. 

[30801]

I mentioned Ripple earlier. This popped on on YouTube...

 

 

[spikey]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

I mentioned Ripple earlier. This popped on on YouTube...

 

 

 

And that picture of that bloke on the right ensured that I won't be watching it.  What on earth message is the producer of that video hoping to convey by that?