Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Citadel]

Carlisle in pre-grouping times had many colours and liveries - so by way of a change finished the MR horsebox.  I always struggle with the rocking W iron type compensation and how you get sufficient clearances to the springs / footboards etc.  Went with one of Bill Bedford's etches allowing each wheel to be independently sprung and think this is a far more elegant solution on an under frame with quite so much external furniture.... 

 

 

Looking at the photos kindly provided by Compound in an earlier post can't help but feel that this might be a little bit garish (despite my best efforts to make the yellow lines as thin as I could), especially given the comment that horseboxes weren't typically washed in the same way that carriages were.  

 

So out with the weathering powder...  OK, may have gone a little over the top but the photo doesn't really do justice - in real life quite like the subdued effect.  Weathering powder not fixed in place so might go at it with a cotton wool bud at a later date and strategically remove in certain areas but plan to leave for now.

 

 

Attacked the cat scratching post and made some quite convincing straw, wanted to have some wisps poking out of the bottom of the centre door - thought would be a nice touch.  Faffed about for 30 mins then got impatient so it didn't make the photoshoot.  

 

45' family saloon next, getting there with the exterior so now girding my loins re: the internals, glazing, door handles etc.  Really looking forward to seeing it completed, think am developing a soft spot for clerestory roofs...

 

 

As always though getting distracted and starting new kits.  Firstly the D84 Picnic Saloon - must try to find where I put Peppa the pig as this time will make sure the table fits....

 

 

Finally building a couple of 32' six wheelers - this one is the centre luggage composite.  These carriages look to be from an earlier era so doing a bit of research to check whether can adapt the kit to have separate top steps, chain brake, oil lamps etc.  

 

 

Keeps me out of mischief....

Edited July 24, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

On 23/07/2022 at 22:01, Citadel said:

Really looking forward to seeing it completed, think am developing a soft spot for clerestory roofs...

 

 

I think it's the very old-fashioned look of clerestory roofs that fascinates - I'm the same; they're something we simply never see in modern stock...

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

I think it's the very old-fashioned look of clerestory roofs that fascinates - I'm the same; they're something we simply never see in modern stock...

 

I think the last clerestory carriages in service were the two LNWR brake firsts of 1906 that were part of the royal train until 1977. 

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think the last clerestory carriages in service were the two LNWR brake firsts of 1906 that were part of the royal train until 1977. 

Yes, good point Stephen: Royalty excepted, I should have said 🙂

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Chas Levin said:

Yes, good point Stephen: Royalty excepted, I should have said 🙂

 

Intended merely as a factoid, not a correction!

[Nick Holliday]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Intended merely as a factoid, not a correction!

Careful, Stephen, a factoid is not what you may think it is - I blame Steve Wright.

Qoute from the Guardian 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

Careful, Stephen, a factoid is not what you may think it is - I blame Steve Wright.

 

Ah well, what I wrote might be a factoid because I did no fact checking before I wrote it.

 

Oxford Languages defines it as "an item of unreliable information that is reported and repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact." - exactly the sort of thing I regularly inveigh against - vide "small engine policy"...

 

But it also gives a separate North American definition "a brief or trivial item of news or information." The trouble is, that in the US at least, the two definitions have become equivalent.

 

It's one of those unfortunate words that started out well but has been dragged downhill by mendacious usage. I could list some others but won't...

 

When were the first British clerestory carriages built? Here's one of the pair of pioneer bogie carriages of 1876:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64311]

 

Are there any earlier Great Western examples?

[Nick Holliday]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

When were the first British clerestory carriages built? Here's one of the pair of pioneer bogie carriages of 1876:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64311]

 

Are there any earlier Great Western examples?

According to Russell et al, the GWR built at least one “posting saloon”, a four wheeled broad gauge saloon with a clerestory roof in 1838, which may have survived to 1856, built there seems to be little evidence of other examples until an 1876 bogie coach, although there may have been some slightly earlier six-wheeled ones, but Russell is not clear on that point.

[Chas Levin]

Fascinating stuff, all: I didn't actually know of either of those competing definitions if 'factoid' - I'd vaguely assumed it was the American "brief or trivial item of news or information" but also without checking!

Meanwhile, the earlt history of the first clerestories is equally interesting... Some reading to be done.

[Compound2632]

On 26/07/2022 at 11:54, Nick Holliday said:

According to Russell et al, the GWR built at least one “posting saloon”, a four wheeled broad gauge saloon with a clerestory roof in 1838, which may have survived to 1856, built there seems to be little evidence of other examples until an 1876 bogie coach, although there may have been some slightly earlier six-wheeled ones, but Russell is not clear on that point.

 

Seeing as Clayton was C&W Superintendent of the Great Western before moving to the Midland, it would be surprising if there wan't some similarity between GWR and MR carriage design in the 1870s. I don't know much about his GW career, probably because I've not read this book:

 

 

Clayton's claim to fame in the 1870s was surely to have designed and built the carriage and wagon works of a major railway not once but twice in quick succession!

[Nick Holliday]

On 26/07/2022 at 11:54, Nick Holliday said:

According to Russell et al, the GWR built at least one “posting saloon”, a four wheeled broad gauge saloon with a clerestory roof in 1838, which may have survived to 1856, built there seems to be little evidence of other examples until an 1876 bogie coach, although there may have been some slightly earlier six-wheeled ones, but Russell is not clear on that point.

According to the information here http://www.gwrcoaches.org.uk/index.html there were a couple of broad gauge composites     built in 1874 with clerestory roofs, later converted to narrow gauge, but the main production of such roofs on six and eight wheeled stock began in 1876.

[Citadel]

Many thanks for all the interesting discussion, those early MR clerestories are definitely on the to do list.  In terms of the 45' Family Saloon, woo hoo - finished (at last)....  

 

 

Definitely pride of place in terms of what I've built so far.  Spent ages on the interior but due to the deep recesses the seats are located in you don't really see much in this view - but I know it's there :)   Here's the exploded view, looks a bit like the photo before packing the car to go away on holiday...

 

 

Couple more pictures.  Have definitely used up my modelling time for this weekend so had better get out there and cut the grass....

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Marvellous vehicle Mike, really gorgeous!

I know what you mean about interiors and other details that you know are there but which aren't very visible - still satisfying though!

I always remind myself too that part of the point is the enjoyment to be had from making all those detailed parts, even if you don't see them...

[Mikkel]

Beautiful. The subtle weathering avoids the glare of an ex-works coach yet doesn't restrain the glorious livery.

 

Never mind the lawn, the UN have sanctioned you to spend all your time modelling, the world needs more gems like this 🙂

[Citadel]

Many thanks for the kind words, think I'd need to call on the UN to deal with the diplomatic incident if I increased my modelling hours....

 

My thoughts keep straying to actually building the layout itself, have just about finished lining out the room above the garage.  Also stock (and indeed history) of the other companies using Carlisle in the 1890's (Maryport & Carlisle, Midland, Caledonian, Glasgow & South Western, Midland, North Eastern and North British).  Certainly looking forward to a bit of teaking, think this was M&CR livery at the time.

 

In the meantime just finishing two slightly neglected kits from the back of the drawer.  Originally thought aha!, four wheels so will make them look old and put them with the Saltley coaches but in reality a lot more modern and would have been a travesty really.  So building them as per the prototype but pretty sure would never found it as far North as Carlisle.

 

This is pretty much straight after pass 1 re: the painting/lining - a couple of wobbly bits that will correct with the Rotring before applying the varnish.  Also need the ventilators above the doors, generally paint/line these off the carriage then affix with superglue.

 

 

 

Also need to pimp up the slightly dodgy HMRS crests a little.  Oh, and glazing, interiors etc. etc. etc.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Citadel
Changed tweaking to teaking. Could have been worse, could have been twerking!

[WFPettigrew]

6 hours ago, Citadel said:

Certainly looking forward to a bit of teaking, think this was M&CR livery at the time.

There is a superb article, with full colour illustrations, of the development of M&C coaching stock right from the get go through to 1923, in the latest Journal of the Cumbrian Railways Association....

 

I know you're avowedly mid-Victorian, but in that article is reference to a train heading up to Carlisle from Workington not long before the grouping, when the formation was a colourful mix of LNWR, MCR and Furness Railway stock... 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Citadel]

Thanks for that, have just paid my membership and joined, had been meaning to do this for a while.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Keep plugging along, finding now that interiors are getting a bit easier with experience - do find it quite a pleasurable (if slightly masochistic) activity.  Bought some interior lighting kits a while ago intending to experiment but haven't plucked up the courage yet.  Will have to confine myself to peering in from the outside with a torch in moments of guilty pleasure...

 

 

Cracked the curving of the plasticard roof (Wainwright Golden Beer bottle, tape and water just off the boil).  Thanks for the advice, can see the key is to get it to exactly the right shape so it just sits in place rather than stressing the adhesive which could cause lift over time.

 

Right, where did I put the rocky bits that hold the wheels in place so I can finish the underframe and move onto the next one....

Edited August 9, 2022 by Citadel

[richard i]

Very realistically weathered roof. Any secret to achieving it?

richard 

[Citadel]

Have to admit that I’m a bit of a novice to all this and to a certain extent am making it up as I go along.

 

According to LNWR Liveries by the HMRS ‘clerestory sides and carriage roofs were officially white at all times but the effect of smoke and dirt rapidly changed the colour to dark grey or black.  Even when the body of a coach was completely stripped down and repainted, which occurred about every five or six years, it was not usual to repaint the roof unless it required special attention’.  So on this basis have been a little reluctant to go with completely white roofs except in an ex. works carriage.

 

I start off with Halfords grey primer then overcoat with white.  Generally find the covering power of the white primer to be absolutely rubbish so a light waft over the roof still leaves it basically grey to varying degrees (also creates a slightly relief effect on raised details).  Primer is matte so just dry brush with black weathering powder (scrubbing quite hard) then lightly brush off the excess.  Given that have basically made the matt primer dirty it resists handling quite well (the weathering powder isn’t loose as such) but one day will get splashed with water or pick up greasy fingerprints which I imagine might be a bit of a disaster.  Assuming I could probably seal with matte acrylic varnish, one day I’ll try this.

 

So a bit low tech really, would be really interested in understanding how the experts do it!

Edited August 10, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Plucked up the courage to spray the roof with matt varnish before fixing to the carriage.  Less stressful than expected and now have a more permanent and durable finish...  Here's the finished article:

 

 

 

 

 

As mentioned was on the page when originally bought it that would try to channel something from an earlier era but quickly realised this wouldn't really work.  Putting it alongside one of the Saltley coaches shows there is a clear difference in scale:

 

 

 

Now for the brake third...

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Brake third finished.  Late evening effect with reflection of sunset on the windows....

 

 

 

Both these 4 wheelers built from LRM kits.  

 

 

Think I'll do the relining etc. on the MR brake third next - girding myself to get the underframe to work.  See the Slaters MR 6 wheelers have been re-released, sorely tempted....

Edited August 12, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Lovely work Mike!

[Citadel]

Took Compound's advice re: the lettering / lining.  May have reached my Waterloo based on my current skills / techniques...

 

 

And yes, it was meant to be 397 - it was only when I blew the photo up that I realised had put the 9's on upside down (oopsie).  Not finished, still need to fit gas tanks, interior and fasten down roof etc.

 

Had a bit of a battle with the under frame, ended up adapting it to be more like the 7mm version in the downloadable instructions from the Slaters website.  Also went with side play on the centre axle as suggested by others.   Now realise they came in two options - OO and EM/P4 (this one OO) so not now as much clearance as I would have liked.  Let's see... one to fiddle with when I get round to laying some track methinks.

 

 

Just bought another from the Slaters website and will look to do in the M S J S livery.  It is nice to have some Midland red around, keep putting it next to the LNWR 6 wheelers and admiring the contrast.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Is that Cleminson's type chassis the original Slaters one then, or the one you got etched? Apologies if I've missed updates on that - I looked back up the thread and I can see you mentioning designing an etch with three pivot holes but also you mentioned that you'd have a go at adapting the Slaters one...