Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Coal Tank]

47 minutes ago, Brassey said:

 

It was not unknown to load/unload horses on the passenger platforms too.

Talking of horeboxes, im Looking out for the Gibson model of the early one 

[Citadel]

Once again many thanks for all the information - find it absolutely fascinating.   I'm not really a rivet counter at heart but am finding that understanding the historical context definitely adds an extra layer of interest and authenticity.   Think anyone seeking to model railways in late Victorian times has to have a keen interest in social and engineerng history.

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread ultimate aim is to build a layout representing Carlisle Citadel Station in late Victorian times.  Viewing it more as a moving diorama to set my models in really, have a keen interest in photography/lighting etc. and am really inspired by Paternoster Row's work in this respect.   Objective really is to get down to platform level and be within the station canopy itself.  John, that's why the photos of the new layout in your thread are really stirring me into action....

 

Link to the thread I started in Pre Grouping - Modelling & Prototype earlier this year below. 

  

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/170175-carlisle-citadel-1880s/

 

Have so many questions about Scotch Expresses etc., will probably try from now on to move my prototype/historical questions over there - haven't even started learning about the North British, North Eastern, Caledonian, G&SWR etc. 🙂

 

Will let this one focus primarily on the Scratchbuilding / Kitbuilding itself.  In that respect better get stuck in!

Edited December 8, 2022 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

Thank you for your comments Mike (I feel a little bit flattered) but its good to know that we are all getting inspiración from each other. What started me on the LNWR was seeing London Road at scale forum many years ago buying a kit of the M&L dock tank. Then talking to Jol Wilkinson about coach painting at various exhibition getting MRJ no 54 and taking the plunge on coach painting. 

[WFPettigrew]

7 hours ago, Citadel said:

Carlisle Citadel Station in late Victorian times

Just dawned on me that while the London Road Models FR horsebox is very within your period, the six of D37 were 1897, so probably too modern for you!  Wash my mouth out with this nigh 20th century stuff!

 

[Citadel]

Finished the Radial Underframe - well, bar the side chains and the weathering.  Oh, and the body supports need up a bit to give a representation of the rubber vibration dampers…. Next time need to be a little more firm with the rivet pressing but looks OK in real life and hopefully the weathering will accentuate it a little.  Beautiful day outside so reflection of sun/snow in the windows - have to say the weather not normally as nice as this in Moffat!
 

 

 

It definitely gives the coach a different character and pleased I went to the effort to do something a little different.  The axles are mounted on an inside framed bogie with piano wire springing on each wheel

 

 

Added lead where possible to give a bit of weight.  There is a fair bit of clearance within the radial frame - would judge no different to a bogie underframe in this respect

 

 

As mentioned have been in discussion with John Redrup at LRM and he's keen to offer as an option alongside the 42' arc roof carriages in his range.  Need to fettle the etch design a little first and resolve a few small niggles noticed when building them - maybe a project for the Christmas holidays....

Edited December 12, 2022 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Citadel said:

There is a fair bit of clearance within the radial frame - would judge no different to a bogie underframe in this respect

 

Which is very good news from the point of view of an 00 bodger such as myself - even more clearance given the narrower width over wheel faces. Does the bogie etch have an option for assembly to clear 00 back-to-back?

[Citadel]

Tried to design that in.  The top plate of the bogie is in three sections - on the photo you can just see the extra set of slots meaning that the back to back clearance can be adjusted by the 2mm required.

[Coal Tank]

I will definately be interested in some of these. I am doing a radial coach at the moment 

John 

[Citadel]

Urgh... getting a bit too much sucked into Adobe Illustrator.    Think I fancy a bit of real modelling over the Christmas period - now it's warmed up a bit will maybe brave the garage.  

 

The 12 wheel clerestory body now off to the etchers and have been wrestling with the underframe and bogies.  The bogie design has been through a couple of iterations but went for independent springing with piano wire with greater clearance on the centre axle allowing a sliding arrangement (1mm axle + and 2mm o.d. brass tube) as suggested by @Portchullin Tatty earlier in the year.   Is there a foolproof method of building 6 wheel bogies?  There will also have to be some 3D printed components re: the springing / axle boxes etc. but that will be for another day.

 

Still tweaking the details - just noticed there's no holes to attach the body to the chassis etc.  Also needs the tabs joining the components together and will also duplicate some of the small parts to fill the spaces and feed the carpet monster.  When do you stop checking and rechecking the drawing....

 

 

On the right there is a Maryport & Carlisle D11 27' 4 1/2" underframe - the next project.....  @SteamAle has kindly provided some drawings and finding the article in the Aug '22 CRA magazine very useful in this respect.  Getting quite excited about seeing a bit of teaking - assume another steep learning curve....

Edited December 19, 2022 by Citadel

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

depending on the minimum radius you expect the 12w carriages will run on, you may not need to have a sliding centre axle on the bogies. The 12w LNWR diner I built has Masokits sprung bogies and will run through B6 points (it may go through tighter radii but I have never tried it). The London Road Models LNWR 6w Brake Van  with 10ft wheelbase, has no extra side play allowance. Longer 6w vehicles such as the 6w carriages you have built do need it for tighten radii.

 

Jol

[Compound2632]

I've just been reminded that Nos. 1132 and 1133 of the Vulcan batch of the Midland 1102 Class 0-6-0Ts, built Dec 1875, wnt new to Carlisle, being joined by 1134 in 1883 and 1135 and 1136 by the end of the century; these five remained at Carlisle until withdrawal in the late 20s/early 30s. I presume their principal duties were shunting the Durranhill and Dentonholm marshalling yards.

 

The reason for mentioning this is that there is a new kit out, by CamKits, who usually specialise in Cambrian stock - many of the 1102 Class worked the Midland lines in Wales.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Compound2632

[CKPR]

On 04/12/2022 at 22:57, Citadel said:

 

 

Do fancy some M&CR 6-wheelers next...

I suppose I could find room for a third rake...

[CKPR]

On 19/12/2022 at 22:25, Citadel said:

 @Portchullin Tatty 

 

 

On the right there is a Maryport & Carlisle D11 27' 4 1/2" underframe - the next project.....  @SteamAle 

This looks a lot better than the DIY lash ups under my M&CR coaches.

[Citadel]

Oh boy, it's been a while.  Have been beavering away on many fronts and so hopefully the start of some more regular updates over the next couple of months.

 

Firstly  the revised etch came back from PPD for the 42' Radial Underframe.  Incorporated a few modifications based on the test builds but the main change is to the suspension arrangements - went with the post 1886 design this time as felt it was more appropriate for the LRM carriages I was building.

 

 

Picture above still needs axle boxes and the horn-plate type arrangement above the radial truck.

 

Wheel clearances look good.  There's a representation of the radial truck and the clasp brake on the fixed wheels but in reality it's basically just an inside framed bogie carriage with similar clearances and turning circle.

 

Still got the vacuum brake and gas cylinders to fit.  Having a bit of a crisis re: the latter, couple of drawings I have seem to have 13" diameter versions (this is what I catered for on the etch) but the later bogie underframes had a larger ones so more reading required methinks before I fit them.  

 

 

 

In the midst of a bit of a lining frenzy - not sure that batch building 5 off 42' carriages was exactly the best thing for my eyesight and back...  Here's one plonked on top but still some way to go re: tidying up the rough edges....

 

 

Currently writing up some instructions, as mentioned before have been in conversation with John Redrup re: potentially offering this as an option as part of the LRM range.

 

In other news need to get cracking on the MR 54' clerestory composite, now have the body and underframe is on a separate etch. 

 

 

Will keep me busy 🙂

[Amaziii]

On 13/02/2023 at 10:03, Citadel said:

Oh boy, it's been a while.  Have been beavering away on many fronts and so hopefully the start of some more regular updates over the next couple of months.

 

Firstly  the revised etch came back from PPD for the 42' Radial Underframe.  Incorporated a few modifications based on the test builds but the main change is to the suspension arrangements - went with the post 1886 design this time as felt it was more appropriate for the LRM carriages I was building.

 

 

Picture above still needs axle boxes and the horn-plate type arrangement above the radial truck.

 

Wheel clearances look good.  There's a representation of the radial truck and the clasp brake on the fixed wheels but in reality it's basically just an inside framed bogie carriage with similar clearances and turning circle.

 

Still got the vacuum brake and gas cylinders to fit.  Having a bit of a crisis re: the latter, couple of drawings I have seem to have 13" diameter versions (this is what I catered for on the etch) but the later bogie underframes had a larger ones so more reading required methinks before I fit them.  

 

 

 

In the midst of a bit of a lining frenzy - not sure that batch building 5 off 42' carriages was exactly the best thing for my eyesight and back...  Here's one plonked on top but still some way to go re: tidying up the rough edges....

 

 

Currently writing up some instructions, as mentioned before have been in conversation with John Redrup re: potentially offering this as an option as part of the LRM range.

 

In other news need to get cracking on the MR 54' clerestory composite, now have the body and underframe is on a separate etch. 

 

 

Will keep me busy 🙂

Just found this thread last night and was totally absorbed with the kit making processes demonstrated here along with the informative discussions. I genuinely would love to buy a kit of the LNWR coach you're making right now! I recently bought an LRM D326 and was planning on extending my rake of LNWR coaches. I really hope it'll be manufactured by LRM in the future. I'm sure it'll sell pretty well ;D. Good luck with your projects! 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Amaziii

[Citadel]

Thank you for the kind words, feel like a relative novice compared to many of the contributors here - as said a number of times I have a lot to learn but when it comes to making boxes on wheels think I'm beginning to get the hang of it.  Compound curves can wait for another day(!)

 

Just spent a couple of hours with my nose buried in L&NWR Non-Corridor Carriages by Millard and Tattersall trying to decipher the current LRM 42' kits which are potential candidates for the post 1886 radial underframe.  My interpretation as follows (but happy to be corrected):

 

D162 - Lavatory Tricomposite (the one in the photo above).  40 built 1887/8 for the WCJS.  26 transferred to the LNWR, 14 to the CR in 1896-8

 

D292 - All Third.  50 built 1887/7 although 4 quickly converted to D352.  A further 23 built on radial underframes 1892 (despite these being obsolete by this time - assume the third class passenger was a candidate for the surplus underframes)

 

D293 - Centre Luggage Third.  25 built 1886.  All but 2 converted to D277 Lavatory Thirds 1896-7

 

D352 Early Style - 4 conversions from D292 - 2 Brake Composites 2/2/3/3/G, 2 Brake Thirds 3/3/3/3/G.  Carriages built new to this diagram (1892 onwards) were built on bogie underframes.
 

D354 - Brake Third 3/3/G/3/3 and Brake Composite 3/2/G/3/3.  58 built 1885-89.  Further 10 built as Brake Thirds for the WCJS of which 6 were transferred to the LNWR in 1896 with the other 4 passing to the CR

 

Although the radial underframe was basically extinct on the WCJS by 1898 I'm getting the impression that many of these carriages retained the radial underframe until the end of their lives (even through to the grouping).  Assume though the CR gave the radial underframes they inherited pretty short shrift but don't have any reference books on the Caledonian (yet)....

 

A question, did the carriages that transferred to the CR get repainted in CR livery - that might make an interesting model....

Edited February 16, 2023 by Citadel

[Winander]

My HMRS  West Coast Joint Stock book says 27 composites were completed in 1877-78.

• 12 tricomposites with lavs for 1st class 3/1/Lav/Lav/1/2.
• 15 double composites without lav (even for 1st) - 3/1/Lg/1/3.

It does say that 25 tricomposites were ordered but only 12 delivered which accounts for your 40 total.

[Camperdown]

On 13/02/2023 at 18:03, Citadel said:

Oh boy, it's been a while.  Have been beavering away on many fronts and so hopefully the start of some more regular updates over the next couple of months.

 

Firstly  the revised etch came back from PPD for the 42' Radial Underframe.  Incorporated a few modifications based on the test builds but the main change is to the suspension arrangements - went with the post 1886 design this time as felt it was more appropriate for the LRM carriages I was building.

 

 

Picture above still needs axle boxes and the horn-plate type arrangement above the radial truck.

 

Wheel clearances look good.  There's a representation of the radial truck and the clasp brake on the fixed wheels but in reality it's basically just an inside framed bogie carriage with similar clearances and turning circle.

 

Still got the vacuum brake and gas cylinders to fit.  Having a bit of a crisis re: the latter, couple of drawings I have seem to have 13" diameter versions (this is what I catered for on the etch) but the later bogie underframes had a larger ones so more reading required methinks before I fit them.  

 

 

 

In the midst of a bit of a lining frenzy - not sure that batch building 5 off 42' carriages was exactly the best thing for my eyesight and back...  Here's one plonked on top but still some way to go re: tidying up the rough edges....

 

 

Currently writing up some instructions, as mentioned before have been in conversation with John Redrup re: potentially offering this as an option as part of the LRM range.

 

In other news need to get cracking on the MR 54' clerestory composite, now have the body and underframe is on a separate etch. 

 

 

Will keep me busy 🙂

The 54' composite etch looks very good.  If I was to build it, I think I would be apprehensive about folding the long flanges at the top and bottom of the sides, without damaging the panelled sides themselves.  I assume there is a half etched fold line on the reverse side.  For the top, you could probably clamp the sides between some steel flats; more difficult at the bottom if the tumblehome has already been formed.

 

Some kits have slots built in to long folds like this; perhaps scoring the fold will help?  As I say, just initial apprehension without actually trying to build it, so I'll be interested to see how the build actually proceeds.  Best of luck.

[Citadel]

17 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

The 54' composite etch looks very good.  If I was to build it, I think I would be apprehensive about folding the long flanges at the top and bottom of the sides, without damaging the panelled sides themselves.  I assume there is a half etched fold line on the reverse side.  For the top, you could probably clamp the sides between some steel flats; more difficult at the bottom if the tumblehome has already been formed.

 

Some kits have slots built in to long folds like this; perhaps scoring the fold will help?  As I say, just initial apprehension without actually trying to build it, so I'll be interested to see how the build actually proceeds.  Best of luck.

 

Fair point, there is a half etch on the reverse and I generally run a triangular file down this to thin the metal a little then score with the back of a Stanley knife or similar until I see a visible crease line on the front face.  Then clamp the side between two steel straight edges aligned with the fold line and use a piece of wood the same length as the side to apply even pressure.

 

Have thought about perforations all the way through along the etch line but have a bit of a love hate relationship with kits that do this, leaves a bit of a serrated edge visible from the outside of the crease line.  Do use this technique though when the inside of the crease is visible (so say when folding up the thin return on the inner edge of a footboard or similar.

 

I'm new to this though, really welcome any advice re: best practice here. 

[Camperdown]

1 minute ago, Citadel said:

 

Fair point, there is a half etch on the reverse and I generally run a triangular file down this to thin the metal a little then score with the back of a Stanley knife or similar until I see a visible crease line on the front face.  Then clamp the side between two steel straight edges aligned with the fold line and use a piece of wood the same length as the side to apply even pressure.

 

Have thought about perforations all the way through along the etch line but have a bit of a love hate relationship with kits that do this, leaves a bit of a serrated edge visible from the outside of the crease line.  Do use this technique though when the inside of the crease is visible (so say when folding up the thin return on the inner edge of a footboard or similar.

 

I'm new to this though, really welcome any advice re: best practice here. 

I know what you mean about slots, they certainly have their problems.  That said, I would certainly encourage some work on the fold line, along the lines of the scoring you suggest, before the fold is attempted.  Nothing worse than trying to bend the flange over and instead ruining the side because it bends just above the base of the panelling.  Scrap etch and generous solder can always reinforce the bend after it has been made.

 

Final point, it's best to clamp the side between some long lengths of flat steel and do the bend all at once.  But if you can't, then doing the bend a bit a a time (a bit of length and only folding through a small angle) works surprisingly well.  Just be gentle and take plenty of time.

[Citadel]

22 hours ago, Winander said:

My HMRS  West Coast Joint Stock book says 27 composites were completed in 1877-78.

• 12 tricomposites with lavs for 1st class 3/1/Lav/Lav/1/2.
• 15 double composites without lav (even for 1st) - 3/1/Lg/1/3.

It does say that 25 tricomposites were ordered but only 12 delivered which accounts for your 40 total.

Hi Winander.  Do you think these might be 32’ 6 wheel coaches rather than 42’ radials?  (P89 of A Register of WCJS)?

 

There were a lot more carriages built with radial underframes - the WCJS book quotes 467 in total - just really focused on the ones that could be linked to the current range of LRM kits.  I started trying to account for them all but this still a work in progress.  Maybe the radial underframes were a little longer lived than I thought.  On P29 of A Register of WCJS it states ‘Nethertheless the radial carriages were not completely unsatisfactory; apart from accident victims, most of these carriages were still in service in the LNWR and CR fleets at the time of the grouping but after this date withdrawals began… …quite a few survived long enough to be allocated numbers in the LMS 1933 re numbering scheme’.  One day I’ll build one in lined LMS red….

[Dave John]

With regard to long folds, and from a personal viewpoint, I prefer a single half etch over  a series of through etches . As described above it is easy to skrawk through a linear half etch to give an accurate even fold, the serrated effect is difficult to fix. 

 

I am trying to find out which of these could be found to the west of Glasgow in the Edwardian era. Rule 1 might apply, I do like them. 

 

A whole new livery to learn too..... 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Dave John

[Citadel]

Hooray, the 14' 6" Horsebox is finally complete.  Many thanks for the help re: trying to understand the door stay arrangement.  It's a cute little thing...

 

 

On the radial front fitted the axleboxes and the sole bar detail so ready to paint.  Well, after I've straightened that buffer out - dropped it on the floor when taking the photograph...

 

 

Compare and contrast with the earlier version of the radial underframe, it's like one of those 'spot the difference' competitions...   

 

 

Today's project is to sort the roof on the 42' full brake - one of the first etched kits I built when I restarted modelling a couple of years ago.  Don't know if it is clear from the photo but it ramps up as it reaches the end.  

 

 

The radius of the plasticard roof supplied with the kit doesn't really match the radius of the end - hence t the time a lot of problems trying to get the sides to stick down.  Because there are no internal compartments it is unsupported except at the ends so suspect the central portion regained it's original shape without me noticing.  Will prise it off and fit better internal supports.

 

Reason I got the 42' brake out of the cupboard is that currently building another one.  Shows the roof issue quite well.  On this one will get the boiling water and the wine bottle out and tighten the radius a little.  My days of watching the sides ping up as the superglue loses it's tack are definitely behind me....

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

arc roofs for the LRM kits were originally supplied by Danny Pinnock (D&S) but when he retired John Redrup had to find an alternative way of producing them. I think they are now vacuum formed. 

 

An alternative is to by a George Watts larger roller set and roll brass roofs. They need to be rolled over wide and then trimmed to width. A friend uses this technique, especially for D&S NER clerestory roof carriages as the prefers to solder the roof components together.

 

A detailed description of your technique would be useful.. I have a number of van kits of various brands where I need to fit the plastic roofs supplied. I have the smaller roller set so could do metal roofs for these.

 

Jol

[Citadel]

Thanks Jol.

 

Just to emphasise this wasn’t intended as a criticism of the kit.  It’s overcoming issues like this that make modelling a challenge.  The place I’ve got to though is to definitely ensure that the roof curve is correct before fitting rather than trying to rely on the tack of glue to pull it into shape.  Do see quite a lot of photos of models where the roof has sprung back and separated at the corners.

 

I’ll try the hot water, curved former technique but a bit worried that the roof is only slightly over width and there may be shrinkage or scalloping of the edge.  When I do it with fresh plasticard generally give myself a sacrificial centimetre or so at each side.  Quite like the brass idea but plastic card more within my skill set / toolkit at present.

 

Obviously the existing roof more of a challenge - let’s see….  If it all goes wrong can always remove the gaslights/ventilators and make a new one.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Citadel