Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Asterix2012]

23 hours ago, Citadel said:

Took Compound's advice re: the lettering / lining.  May have reached my Waterloo based on my current skills / techniques...

 

 

And yes, it was meant to be 397 - it was only when I blew the photo up that I realised had put the 9's on upside down (oopsie).  Not finished, still need to fit gas tanks, interior and fasten down roof etc.

 

Had a bit of a battle with the under frame, ended up adapting it to be more like the 7mm version in the downloadable instructions from the Slaters website.  Also went with side play on the centre axle as suggested by others.   Now realise they came in two options - OO and EM/P4 (this one OO) so not now as much clearance as I would have liked.  Let's see... one to fiddle with when I get round to laying some track methinks.

 

 

Just bought another from the Slaters website and will look to do in the M S J S livery.  It is nice to have some Midland red around, keep putting it next to the LNWR 6 wheelers and admiring the contrast.

 

 

Will be nice to see how the re-released kit goes together.

 

And what’s in the box.

[Citadel]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Is that Cleminson's type chassis the original Slaters one then, or the one you got etched? Apologies if I've missed updates on that - I looked back up the thread and I can see you mentioning designing an etch with three pivot holes but also you mentioned that you'd have a go at adapting the Slaters one...

 

Aah, the challenge of keeping my uninformed optimism and enthusiasm in check.  I'm 95% of the way there with the etch but this was going to be for the 42' 8 wheel radial chassis used on the early LNWR arc roof stock.   All I was going to do with the Slaters underframe was maybe snip a few bits off and solder a few extra lugs on (and maybe alter the pivot hole geometry) based on the LRM underframe kits I've built.     

 

Then I looked at the downloads section of the Slaters website and found there were instructions for the 7mm version.  Basically copied these instead by making some lugs out of scrap brass to locate the wires (my kit was built over 20 years ago and didn't have these)....

 

 

Needs a bit of fettling and replacement of the brass wires with piano wire and maybe washers at the pivot points etc.  Does seem to move quite freely and do the job though - apart from the fact that there isn't really much clearance for the outermost wheels to pivot that much.  When I bought the new kit gave me the option of OO and EM/P4, let's see what the difference is as assume my version is the former. 

 

*Just realised looking at the diagram above missed off the extra pairs of lugs inboard of the fixing screws - will increase sideways force on the central axle so think will retrofit....

Edited August 17, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Got you, interesting... And it clearly works, though as you say, outer wheel clearance is an issue: I've had to carve out the insides of solebars on the Cleminson chassis I built but it was worth it as they run so well - it's such a cleever original design.

[Compound2632]

On 16/08/2022 at 13:52, Citadel said:

 

And yes, it was meant to be 397 - it was only when I blew the photo up that I realised had put the 9's on upside down (oopsie).  

 

Lovely. I wouldn't worry about the number. These carriages were built as renewals of Kirtley-era composites so exact numbering is unknown; as far as I'm aware 367 is as good a number as 397. the difference in shading hardly shows.

[Citadel]

OK, MR Composite finished.  Thought it would be a relatively quick job resurrecting something I'd built over 20 years ago (before life in general got in the way of modelling).  Turned out a bit more involved than I expected but learned a lot and now ready for the next one which arrived in the post this morning....

 

 

Have been watching Ian Rathbone videos around the use of a ruling pen and looks so simple and quick - what could possibly go wrong(!)  As always though apparent simplicity comes with years of experience and considerable skill - it is a Rubicon I need to cross though....

 

In the meantime keep muddling through, trying to develop my painting technique for the droplight windows.  Due to my inadequacies re: soldering often find it difficult to get a clean line around them (especially to give the spilled milk border between the venetian red and the inner yellow line on the beading).  Have started to score a fine line in the paint and allow the Rotrink ink to wick into this giving a neat border and then flood the inside of this with the venetian red acrylic.  Surface tension works its magic and gives nice straight lines...

 

 

 

Right, Peppa's carriage awaits (probably here my droplights are a little bit skinny, will rectify).  This is the D84, will go quite nicely with the D85 built earlier.  Just can't get enough of those landscape format windows....

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

That midland coach looks really good 

[Citadel]

Quick question, see the MR All Third was part of the MSJS, also the later conversion of the centre compartment to a lavatory.  Can certainly see one of my next projects forming shape....  More interestingly the comment re: transfers to the G&SWR and the North British.  Maybe this kit offer the potential to do something interesting and relevant to Carlisle in the late 1890's?

 

See extract from the downloadable instructions on the Slater's website below.  I've just picked the luggage composite up from the post office but do I need to get my credit card out again :)?

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Quick question, see the MR All Third was part of the MSJS, also the conversion of the centre compartment to a lavatory.  Can certainly see one of my next projects forming shape....  More interestingly the comment re: transfers to the G&SWR and the North British.  Does this kit offer the potential to do something interesting and relevant to Carlisle in the late 1890's?

 

The info given there agrees with (probably comes from) Lacy & Dow but the photo is new to me! This does mean that for Carlisle in the period 1894-1900, any MSJS 6-wheel third needs to be the lavatory conversion but still running in your Midland Scotch express as an MSJS vehicle not NB or G&SW. As far as I'm aware, no Midland thirds were altered in this way, new 6-wheel lavatory thirds being built instead. But plenty of other carriages had a compartment converted to a pair of lavatories - and done more neatly around the former door area:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 64269.]

 

I doubt the interpretation of the droplight being filled in with a panel - how would the lavatory compartment be illuminated? I think the difference in appearance is down to the use of frosted glass.

[Asterix2012]

Any idea how long the ones transferred to the Midland and NB lasted?

[Compound2632]

14 hours ago, Asterix2012 said:

Any idea how long the ones transferred to the Midland and NB lasted?

 

I believe Midland 6-wheelers of this type were still in service in early LMS days (chiefly thirds, I think) but their numbers were rapidly declining. Many were built for close-coupled local set trains in 1883/4; these trains were replaced by new bogie stock between 1900 (Leeds and Bradford) and 1914 (Sheffield area) and the carriages dispersed to other areas - I think some sets went to the Swansea Vale line, so were not immediately withdrawn. More were built for general service up to 1892. The MSJS carriages, built in 1882, were pioneers of the type, and 18 years old when retired from Scotch service. On the Midland they would nominally have another 4-5 years life in capital stock before being renewed but could have remained in service a few years longer in duplicate stock. At the end of 1905 there were only 15 6-wheel thirds and brake thirds in the duplicate stock as against 1,107 in the capital stock; I count 1,133 built for the Midland plus these 4 ex-MSJS vehicles, indicating that only 15 had been withdrawn. However, 13 of these had not been broken up but rather converted to parcels vans around 1900.

 

(These quantities include the 31 ft lavatory thirds and 33 ft 6 in thirds and brake thirds built in the square-light clerestory style in 1897-9, as well as the arc-roof 31 ft carriages.)

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Compound2632

[DOCJACOB]

Ex M&NB stock covered extensively in early NBR Study Group Journals, message me if interested.

 

Oddly an ex M&NB coach was grounded and ended up as Tote office in Hull at Hull KR Craven Park. When redeveloped it was rescued as pile of bits and went to Butterley though when I last asked they had no idea of its existence 

 

The other coach at same site was ex GCR and ended up in Ruddington. 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, DOCJACOB said:

Ex M&NB stock covered extensively in early NBR Study Group Journals, message me if interested.

 

Ah but that's a different thing altogether - a fleet of clerestory corridor vehicles. When the Midland Scotch Joint Stock came up for renewal, it was decided to create two separate joint stocks. The London-Glasgow dining cars of 1896 had paved the way for this, being M&SW Joint Stock - the North British wasn't going to contribute to stock it wasn't going to benefit from. So the new corridor stock of 1899 and subsequently was built as M&GSW Joint Stock for the Glasgow and Stranraer trains and M&NB Joint Stock for Edinburgh, Perth, Aberdeen, and Inverness. The M&NB Joint Stock was the only such arrangement to survive the grouping - the LMS built sleeping cars for it - being finally divided between the LMS and LNER in 1930. 

[Compound2632]

20 hours ago, DOCJACOB said:

Ex M&NB stock covered extensively in early NBR Study Group Journals, message me if interested.

 

Looking through the online index, I find articles by Marshall Shaw, Midland Scottish Joint Stock Carriages 1879 - 1898, Issue 48, and Midland and North British Joint M&NBJS Coaching Stock, Issue 54. The former of these is relevant to the 6-wheelers under discussion. There are a few other articles: AA Maclean, Passenger Brake Vans (M&NB), Issue 27, and Anon, Cudsworth* Stock Note (M&NBJ Stock destroyed), Issue 67, and M&NB Joint Stock Working after the Joint Stock, Issue 68. The latter I presume discusses the post-1930 situation.

 

*A typo for Cudworth; the accident there in 1905 saw the destruction of a large proportion of the Midland's fleet of sleeping carriages, mone of which were more than a couple of years old. 

[Citadel]

Just to distract me further from the world of seats and interior detail have been painting the 32' centre luggage composite from LRM.  Plan is to try and adapt the kit to reflect an earlier era - see photo below from A Register of WCJS:

 

 

At the same time painting sides for Ratio 50 ft corridor arc roof stock, the first completed one below:

 

 

Urgh, that's a lot of window surrounds to paint bur certainly starting to look the part...

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Citadel

[Hibelroad]

Those Ratio sides are notoriously difficult to paint and line out, I gave up on them but you have made it look easy. They certainly look impressive. 

[Coal Tank]

More stunning work Mike. I do like the photo of the earlier coach 

John 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Coal Tank

[Citadel]

More Ratio 50' sides, as carriages get longer they have more compartments and take longer to paint - should have stayed in the 1860's(!)

 

 

 

After spending the last 12 months building etched kits do find some of the moulded details a little crude - particularly the ends / corridor connections.  Had some corridor connection etchings left over from LRM 42' Full Brake kits so plan is to use these

 

 

But anyway, getting distracted from the real job in hand - finishing the D84 Picnic Saloon.  Better get stuck in...

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mike, have you taken the Lady of the Lake out of the box recently 

John 

[Citadel]

Funny you should say that, received the final bits and bobs to complete just today.  Opened the box to put them in and carefully unwrapped the etches once again and gazed longingly at them.  What’s stopping me, sense buying some track and a controller etc. might be a good starting point so can fettle the chassis / pickups etc. before getting stuck into the body.  Before I buy some track need to build a baseboard, before I build a baseboard need to finish lining out the room above the garage.  Aargh!  I will get there but do find the next steps a bit daunting (although at the same time quite exciting!)

[Coal Tank]

Just cut the jig out and form the footplate. I annealed mine but Jol said that its not necessary to do that. Thats the worst part over. Then its Just the cab and splashers. Then stop and have a long think. I only have a meter of track although I have Just put a short piece of film on the LNWR facebook page of it running 

John 

[Citadel]

Some time ago hatched a plan to make a picnic for the D85 Picnic Saloon I was building and got a bit fixated on the fact that a stuffed pigs head should feature.  Didn't end well when I realised that the sofas and voluminous skirts of the ladies were too large to allow the table to fit (aargh!).  

 

 

Well, tried again with the D84 version - yes I know the ears aren't quite right and Peppa looks more like a brown badger...   Anyway, here's the completed carriage:

 

 

 

The D84 was an earlier version of the D85.  Understand ventilation wasn't that good with just the droplights in the doors so they reduced the number of fixed panes to one and fitted opening windows either side.  Here’s the two together:

 

 

So one more job completed, girding my loins to tackle the Lady - what could possibly go wrong!

Edited September 20, 2022 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

Ahhh............... The Lady

[Coal Tank]

I am Looking forward to seeing the early six wheeler you are doing 

[Citadel]

All set to do the 32' Composite, a while ago a friend had 3D printed the oil lamps and other roof paraphanalia but can I find them anywhere....  So getting distracted again.  earlier on in this thread built the LRM model of the 6 wheeled milk van, here's a picture again:

 

 

Really hankering after one in the later all over plum livery as the Milk Traffic lettering on my HMRS sheet was crying out to be used.  Not sure whether the lining isn't a bit garish but planning to weather it down a little as assume these vehicles weren't washed particularly often.  Here's progress to date:

 

 

 

Really must maintain my focus on the jobs in hand(!)

Edited September 27, 2022 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

I don't think the lining looks garish Mike - it looks gorgeous to my eye! Do you add a coat or two of varnish over everything (lining & transfers) for safety anyway? I find that tones things down a bit - I don't weather my models at all, so varnish is the only toning down I use. I do sometimes use slightly coloured varnishes (e.g. Ronseal Teak varnish on teak coaching stock) but I'd still class that as finishing rather than weatrhering.

Lovely vehicles - you can't beat some NPCS!