Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Citadel]

Been a little quiet recently, trying to bone up on Adobe Illustrator and get something off to the etchers - what could possibly go wrong(!)  Bit of a steep learning curve but at last the 42' Radial Underframe complete....

 

 

Looking forward to giving the D162 more of an early look.

 

 

And once again thanks for the kind comments Chas, plan now is to get stuck into the Milk Van for a bit of light relief.....

Edited October 10, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Aargh, major dramas today - installing Adobe Creative Cloud to access Illustrator has meant my trusty (old) Adobe Lightroom software I use to manage my photos has stopped working.  Finally got the new version to work, now suspect I need to reload all my photos as doesn't seem to be picking them up.

 

Took solace in the LNWR Milk Van....

 

Why does taking a photo and then looking at it on the screen make you notice all the things that you've forgotten - vacuum pipes, side chains etc. etc.

 

Only one window and no interior detail, what isn't there to love with this kit...

Edited October 11, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

On 26/07/2022 at 08:46, Compound2632 said:When were the first British clerestory carriages built? Here's one of the pair of pioneer bogie carriages of 1876:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64311]

A question, flushed with the creation of the chassis etch fancy an early MR clerestory as my next project - probably one of the Clayton 12-wheelers from the initial days of the Settle to Carlisle.  Notice though that MR carriages seem to have a raised bolection moulding around the fixed lights and trying to get my head round how to represent this with the etched side.  How do other folks cope with this?

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, Citadel said:

one of the Clayton 12-wheelers from the initial days of the Settle to Carlisle.

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 64316. Photo taken mid-late 1880s I think.]

 

There are drawings...

 

Bolection mouldings on an etched carriage - overlays? (With some sort of bracing to keep them to shape, that could be snipped away and filed back after soldering the unit on?)

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Compound2632

[Citadel]

Many thanks for the response.  Agree, best idea I could come up with was to half etch (width of the finished bolection) around the fixed light then insert a full thickness overlay (which then stands proud by half the sheet thickness) before filing back to the finished aperture size.  Like the idea of putting reinforcing webs on the window portion of the overlay to keep its shape when soldering, hadn’t thought of that.  Can see would rake a bit of care to keep it neat but to be honest don’t really see any other way.

Have the drawings in Lacy & Dow Vol 1, are there others available?  Particularly interested in the bogie detail.

 

[Citadel]

Hmmm, interesting couple of weeks.  Covid finally caught up with me after dodging it for 2 and a half years - think a business trip to Luxembourg probably the final straw...  Fortunately pretty mild and at least it's given me some spare time to finish the 50' corridor stock....

 

Firstly the corridor third.  Based this one off the photo on page 145 in A Register of WCJS.

 

 

Replaced the ends and the corridor connections with spare etches I had left over from LRM 42' Full Brake kits.  The photo doesn't really do this justice as couldn't really get the exposure right but it is a massive improvement over the original plastic mouldings.  Also made new footsteps out of spare etch/brass wire as a lot finer (and stronger) than the mouldings supplied with the kit.

 

But the real thing I love is that you really get two coaches for the price of one - here's the non corridor side:

 

 

Reading through the literature realised that the Brake Composite version of the kit didn't represent the WCJS version (these seem to have guard's compartment at the end rather than the centre) so built this one in LNWR livery:

 

 

Definitely realising that the later the period the more windows, seats etc. (and hence the more time consuming).  Still feel these old Ratio models build up into quite nice models though, they were an impulsive eBay purchase from about 15 years ago.

 

 

Absolute change of pace now, last night kicked off a couple of LNWR D12 dumb buffered timber bolsters for a bit of light relief.  Need to go and raid the shrubbery to try and find some suitable logs....

[Compound2632]

Absolutely stunning. Puts my attempt at these carriages utterly to shame. 

 

But I'm afraid I am yet again going to be a carriage pedant in the backside - the reason being simply that when one sees such beautiful work, one does not like to see it be not quite right. The point being, in this case, that the arc-roof 50 ft corridor thirds to WCJS D52 differed from their numerous LNWR D268 brethren in being 8' 6" wide over the body, rather than 8' 0" wide. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Compound2632

[Citadel]

 

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Absolutely stunning. Puts my attempt at these carriages utterly to shame. 

 

But I'm afraid I am yet again going to be a carriage pedant in the backside - the reason being simply that when one sees such beautiful work, one does not like to see it be not quite right. The point being, in this case, that the arc-roof 50 ft corridor thirds to WCJS D52 differed from their numerous LNWR D268 brethren in being 8' 6" wide over the body, rather than 8' 0" wide. 

Aaah, it’s a fair cop guv!  Had missed that - you learn something new every day….  I’ll blame a Covid related brain fog.  You’ll also notice on the brake composite I’ve put the roof grab handles on the wrong end 🙈.
 

Just out of interest when painting the sides noticed also that the frames around the fixed lights were sunken rather than raised.  Is this true of the prototype?  Haven’t got a drawing showing the detail but from squinting at a few of the other photos in A Register of WCJS the way the light catches them suspect they are raised….

Edited October 23, 2022 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Citadel said:

You’ll also notice on the brake composite I’ve put the roof grab handles on the wrong end 🙈.

 

I confess that had passed me by!

 

1 hour ago, Citadel said:

Just out of interest when painting the sides noticed also that the frames around the fixed lights were sunken rather than raised.  Is this true of the prototype?  Haven’t got a drawing showing the detail but from squinting at a few of the other photos in A Register of WCJS the way the light catches them suspect they are raised….

 

The frames were recessed on carriages built under Richard Bore's superintendency - i.e. up to 1885 - but were raised on carriages built in his successor C.A. Park's time, which includes these 50 ft corridor carriages, built 1898-1903. (This applies to carriages with the "Wolverton" panelling style; Park's dining and sleeping saloons are a different matter.) 

[Citadel]

Having a session on Adobe Illustrator designing an etch for the 12 wheel MR clerestory.  Bought a digital copy of the 1875 Metropolitan Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. drawing from the HMRS (very prompt service) and this looks to be an excellent starting point.

 

Bit intrigued though by the buffer arrangement, it's on both this drawing and the one in Lacy & Dow.  On the published photos though I just see the more traditional design.  

 

 

 

Compound, after the sorry tale of the missing six inches want to get this right - any comments from your side?

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Bit intrigued though by the buffer arrangement, it's on both this drawing and the one in Lacy & Dow.  On the published photos though I just see the more traditional design.  

 

These carriages were initially used on the Scotch expresses over the newly-opened Settle & Carlisle, where they ran with Pullman parlour cars on the day train and sleeping cars on the night train, the typical formation being an Edinburgh portion formed: 4-wheel brake / additional 4 or 6 wheel carriages / 12-wheel composite / Pullman car; coupled to a Glasgow portion with the same formation in reverse order, so that the two Pullman cars were coupled together. North of Carlisle, and north of Skipton, Normanton, or wherever the portions were divided, additional vehicles, at minimum a brake van, would be attached to the Pullman car. (Accident reports show that the additional carriages could be North British vehicles in the Edinburgh portion and G&SW in the Glasgow portion.)

 

The Pullman cars had the centre Miller coupler; the arrangement shown in the drawing shows a matching Miller coupler for coupling the 12-wheeler to the Pullman car and the dumb buffers for use when coupling to an ordinary carriage, together with the ordinary screw coupling that was used, with the Miller coupler dropped down. (I have to say I am not entirely clear on this arrangement.) When the Pullman cars were first introduced in 1874, they ran in block trains and a number of 2-4-0s had tenders fitted with the Miller coupler. [See J.B. Radford, The American Pullman Cars of the Midland Railway (Ian Allan, 1984).]

 

The photos of these 12-wheelers in Lacy & Dow were taken in the 1880s, by which time the carriages had been fitted with conventional buffing and coupling gear. In Radford's book there is a photo taken at St Pancras in the 1870s that shows the original arrangement, albeit indistinctly.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Compound2632

[Chas Levin]

Wonderful carriages as usual Mike - sorry to hear about Covid. I've dodged it so far too, but it's only a matter of time I guess...

[Citadel]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Pullman cars had the centre Miller coupler; the arrangement shown in the drawing shows a matching Miller coupler for coupling the 12-wheeler to the Pullman car and the dumb buffers for use when coupling to an ordinary carriage, together with the ordinary screw coupling that was used, with the Miller coupler dropped down. (I have to say I am not entirely clear on this arrangement.) When the Pullman cars were first introduced in 1874, they ran in block trains and a number of 2-4-0s had tenders fitted with the Miller coupler. [See J.B. Radford, The American Pullman Cars of the Midland Railway (Ian Allan, 1984).]

 

The photos of these 12-wheelers in Lacy & Dow were taken in the 1880s, by which time the carriages had been fitted with conventional buffing and coupling gear. In Radford's book there is a photo taken at St Pancras in the 1870s that shows the original arrangement, albeit indistinctly.

Many thanks for the detailed information once again and read the attachment in your PM with interest, fascinating!  
 

Chas, guess a bit luck of the draw but bar tiredness and a bit of a sniffle has been fine.  Only issue is that last night was feeling better so poured myself a glass of wine - tasted absolutely disgusting.   Aaaargh, it’s certainly done something to my sense of taste.

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mike, if you do etches for the 12 wheeler Will they be available 

John 

[Asterix2012]

1 hour ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Mike, if you do etches for the 12 wheeler Will they be available 

John 

I was thinking the same 

 

[Schooner]

@Citadel, apologies for the flood of notifications but I've just discovered this thread and have been blown away by the quality on display! Following with anticipation :)

 

What is it about LNWR modellers...?!

[DOCJACOB]

Not sure if seen this one?? 
 

Apologies for orientation 

[phil_sutters]

A quick Photoshop job

[DOCJACOB]

Not sure if seen this one?? 
 

Apologies for orientation 

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, DOCJACOB said:

Not sure if seen this one?? 
 

Apologies for orientation 

 

That's interesting. What's the source? the lack of any bogie carriages apart from the Pullman suggests it's not the regular day Scotch express. If the engines is a member of Holmes' 633 Class, the c. 1890 date is the earliest possible, as those 24 engines were built 1890-1895. Is it definitely not one of Drummond's 476 Class, built in 1877-1879 and long associated with the Waverley route?

Edited October 24, 2022 by Compound2632

[DOCJACOB]

2 copies of image in NBR Study Group archives & also published in O S Nock book regarding NBR 

 

Agree with thoughts & doesn’t appear split into Glasgow/Edinburgh sections either 

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, DOCJACOB said:

Agree with thoughts & doesn’t appear split into Glasgow/Edinburgh sections either 

 

It's on the Waverly route so it's all Edinburgh!

 

In the early days of the Settle & Carlisle, it was usual for the Scotch expresses to have the Glasgow and Edinburgh portions combined between St Pancras and Skipton (with a luncheon lay-over at Normanton for the day express) but at Skipton the train would divide with each portion attaching carriages from Leeds (which had been by-passed) and Liverpool and Manchester, the latter coming via Colne. This resulted in two not-quite-so-heavy trains to work over the S&C, each within the capacity of a 2-4-0. 

 

Once the line to Hellifield was open, the Lancashire portions were attached there.

 

All vice-versa southbound!

[DOCJACOB]

Thanks and also not a bad load for said locomotive given the route. 
 

Personal interest is the NBR Yeast vans that went similar route to Burton from either Edinburgh or Alloa? 

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's interesting. What's the source? the lack of any bogie carriages apart from the Pullman suggests it's not the regular day Scotch express. If the engines is a member of Holmes' 633 Class, the c. 1890 date is the earliest possible, as those 24 engines were built 1890-1895. Is it definitely not one of Drummond's 476 Class, built in 1877-1879 and long associated with the Waverley route?

It’s hard to make out the cab roof with the steam but that looks more like a Drummond cab than Holmes

[Citadel]

10 hours ago, Coal Tank said:

Hi Mike, if you do etches for the 12 wheeler Will they be available 

John 

Not a problem but more than likely will be an ‘aid to scratchbuilding’ rather than a fully fledged kit.  Also might be a while!  Will do a rest build first an see how it pans out.  Watch this space.

 

6 hours ago, Schooner said:

@Citadel, apologies for the flood of notifications but I've just discovered this thread and have been blown away by the quality on display! Following with anticipation :)

 

What is it about LNWR modellers...?!

 

Many thanks for the kind words.  In terms of the LNWR feel a bit spoiled by the extensive range of kits - have it easy really.  The Waverley Route photo is just.superb though, reminds me that other railway companies are available…. Think there will be a lifetime of modelling pleasure re: Carlisle in the Victorian era - oh for a time machine to go and see it for myself!