Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Coal Tank]

Just out of interest, how long is the 12 wheeler. 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Coal Tank said:

Just out of interest, how long is the 12 wheeler. 

 

Fifty-four feet over the end panels.

[Coal Tank]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Fifty-four feet over the end panels.

Ta

[Citadel]

It's been a while...  Have finally managed to dodge life's little distractions and make some progress on the 42' Radial Underframe.  As mentioned before my first foray into drawing something up with Adobe Illustrator and getting it etched - used PPD and very impressed with their service.

 

 

Used 0.4mm NS and was really pleased how crisp the details are particularly around the spring hangers etc..  Uses a bogie arrangement with a couple of options where the pivot point can be set.  For now have gone with the centre hole - in this form basically identical to the 42' bogie under frame supplied with the LRM kits in terms of geometry / clearances etc.   Bogies have internal bearings and suspension using guitar wire.  

 

 

Photo above is missing quite a lot of details on the solebars - they are on the etch and still have them to add.  The Radial underframes were narrower and there were external supports/rubber dampers for the body....  Have to admit I compromised slightly on width to enable clearances on the internal bogies - slightly narrower than the bogie underframe but only went half way in this respect.

 

 

Had a go at representing the clasp brakes and the frame on the 'radial' trucks but left room to lift the bogie in and out.  You don't really notice when the carriage is the right way up....

 

Just now need the correct axleboxes that I'll source from LRM, a good wash followed by a lick of paint and a body to go on top of it.  The holes to mount the body are in the same location as the 42' bogie under frames I've already built so a bit of a mix and match should be feasible.

 

Have exchanged a couple of emails with John Redrup at LRM.  Few tweaks required based on the experience building the first couple but hopefully will then just let him offer them as part of his range in conjunction with the 42' arc roof carriages.  Let's see....

[Citadel]

Flushed with the excitement of actually building one of my own etches doubled down and got stuck into the MR 12 wheel 54' Composite.  Still have the tabs between the various components to add if you were wondering.  Interested to see whether the bolection mouldings make it through the etching process, also did some luggage racks to detail the interior - maybe a step too far...

 

Ran out of space re: fitting the under frame on the same sheet - did use the spare space to make a chassis for the 14 ' 6" LNWR Horse Box body I built earlier this year (Page 2 I think)...  Also had a go at some LNW wagon plates for some timber bolsters / deal wagons am currently building, let's see.

 

 

Compound, now a question....  Have photos of these carriages and the drawing I obtained from the HMRS (also have Lacy & Dow Vol 1.) but all a bit sparse re: underframe detail in the area between the bogies - are you aware of any drawings etc. either published or in the Midland Railway Study Centre.  One thing you've taught me - do your research and get it right....

Edited December 2, 2022 by Citadel

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Compound, now a question....  Have photos of these carriages and the drawing I obtained from the HMRS (also have Lacy & Dow Vol 1.) but all a bit sparse re: underframe detail in the area between the bogies - are you aware of any drawings etc. either published or in the Midland Railway Study Centre.  

 

That design for the 12-wheeler etch looks tasty, as does the radial underframe - good to know it will be available through LRM. Do you know if John intends to supply the existing kits for 42 ft carriages with a choice of radial or bogie underframe (where appropriate to the diagram)?

 

The underframe of the 12-wheeler is sparse between the bogies - apart from the queenpost trussing of the solebars - for these carriages as built. The drawings I have don't even show the Westinghouse brake cylinder. The official photos of these carriages were, I believe, taken in the 1880s and depict the carriages after fitting with vacuum brakes but still oil-lit. As the lasted until the early years of the 20th century, they will have been given gas lighting (c. 1892 probably) with the necessary cylinders attached to the underframe. Here's one in a train in 1902, note no lamp to the luggage compartment:

 

 

I will have a look at what drawings I've got from the Study Centre, and what the Study Centre has that I haven't got, and PM you some notes - may be a day or two.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Compound2632

[Coal Tank]

Hi, can i have one pleeeeeaaaase

[WFPettigrew]

That looks fantastic!

 

How are you planning on doing the commode/grab handles?

 

I have a part built Ratio D509 Composite looking at me reproachfully while I pluck up courage to have another go with the lining pen and do better than the first attempt, and while I did make seating, I drew the line at luggage racks on the basis that being up inside the carriage they would be out of sight unless I plan to run the carriage on a high viaduct with a viewing angle from below.  But bravo you for going that far.  I suspect you may find yourself quoting the Masokits instructions that "these are rather fiddly" or words to that effect!

[Citadel]

It's a fair cop re: the door handles - wimped out re: putting them on the etch (wondered whether the etching process has the resolution to do justice)....  Haven't really got on that well with the etched grab handles on the LRM kits and generally fabricate from 0.3mm brass wire.  The Midland ones are way more ornate though - in a bout of uninformed optimism I thought 'I'll just make up a jig and everything will be fine'.  Alternatively wondered whether the nice people at Slaters might be tempted to sell me some of the excellent lost wax castings that come with the 6 wheeler kits. 

 

Now you've got me thinking about it though will put some on the etch and see what happens - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

And around luggage racks this is the one where I fit interior lighting so wanted to go the extra mile (at least I'll know they are there).  Do wonder though whether getting a bit carried away....  Focus Mike, you'll never build a layout at this rate(!)

 

Do fancy some M&CR 6-wheelers next...

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Citadel said:

Alternatively wondered whether the nice people at Slaters might be tempted to sell me some of the excellent lost wax castings that come with the 6 wheeler kits. 

 

Slaters Part No. 4200. Not cheap!

[WFPettigrew]

11 hours ago, Citadel said:

It's a fair cop re: the door handles - wimped out re: putting them on the etch (wondered whether the etching process has the resolution to do justice)....  Haven't really got on that well with the etched grab handles on the LRM kits and generally fabricate from 0.3mm brass wire.  The Midland ones are way more ornate though - in a bout of uninformed optimism I thought 'I'll just make up a jig and everything will be fine'.  Alternatively wondered whether the nice people at Slaters might be tempted to sell me some of the excellent lost wax castings that come with the 6 wheeler kits. 

 

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Slaters Part No. 4200. Not cheap!

 

I wasn't aware of those Slaters ones - useful info that, including the pricing!  I recently came by a couple of the Branchlines MR carriage kits for the first time, and looking at the etches, they do the Clayton right-angled commode handles on the etch.  The etches remain in their box at  the moment, however tempting they were to get cracking, so I cannot comment personally on how well they fold up, but my initial reaction was that they might well look crisper than the multi-folded-wire ones I made up for my Ratio carriage (using the Bill Bedford handrail folding jig available from Eileens).  

 

Be keen to see what you decide to do for the 12 wheeler.  Stephen, could such a carriage have ever ventured across the Furness and Midland Joint to Barrow do you think? (More coveting of etches going on here...!!)

 

11 hours ago, Citadel said:

Do fancy some M&CR 6-wheelers next...

 

Oooh!  Look forward to seeing this idea develop too!  Will you be drawing these up yourself as well?

 

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Be keen to see what you decide to do for the 12 wheeler.  Stephen, could such a carriage have ever ventured across the Furness and Midland Joint to Barrow do you think?

 

Interesting question. (That is to say, haven't a clue!) There were 44 of these carriages built, in 1875-6; the first two dozen were intended for the new Scotch expresses, working with the Westinghouse-fitted Pullman cars - the timetable called for a minimum of eight a day, one each for Edinburgh and Glasgow on the day and night train in each direction; they were displaced from this in 1879 by the non-clerestory 12-wheelers built for the Midland Scotch Joint Stock, of which there were ten - eight in daily use and two spare, which looks like reasonable utilisation. So a good number of the clerestory 12-wheelers must have been in service elsewhere from the beginning, despite their Pullman-type couplings - which were arranged to drop down, revealing a standard drawhook.

 

These carriages certainly remained in service until the early years of the 20th century. The sale of one to the Isle of Wight Central was approved by the C&W Committee in October 1907, so this probably marks the time of their final withdrawal. The December 1905 Valuation of Coaching Stock [MRSC 77-11822] gives 71 12-wheel composite carriages in ordinary stock and 43 in duplicate stock, 114 altogether. A bit of adding up from Lacy & Dow and the lot list shows 69 12-wheel composites / composite brakes  (including composite diners) built as Midland stock following the MSJS vehicles:

• 25 54 ft composites, lot 110
• 1 56 ft lavatory compo brake, lot 212 (the Paris Exhibition carriage)
• 20 54 ft lavatory compos, lot 359
• 3 60 ft compo first class dining carriages, lot 384 (Bristol-Bradford)
• 3 60 ft compo brakes, lot 386 (Bristol - Bradford)
• 2 60 ft compo brakes, lot 397 (London-Manchester) 
• 10 60 ft compos, lot 406
• 5 60 ft composite dining carriages, lot 438

Total 69, all, presumably, still ordinary stock in 1905.

 

Add to this three ex-MSJS carriages, transferred to Midland stock in 1898,  and the 44 1875 clerestories gives a total of 116. The Valuation of Coaching Stock lists 10 of the 71 ordinary stock composites as dining carriages; this must include two of the ex-MSJS vehicles; all three of which had been converted to composite diners in 1894. Presumably one had been withdrawn by December 1905, which leads to the conclusion that all but one of the 1875 clerestories were still in service. The lack of a diagram for these carriages in the surviving carriage diagram books implies that those books were produced after their withdrawal; that makes some sense in that the diagram numbering suggests these date from around 1908-9; there may have been earlier diagrams that have not survived.

 

This all assumes there isn't an accident loss I've overlooked.

 

So, having established that these carriages were still in service in the early years of the 20th century, where did they operate? It seems unlikely that they were among the carriages that had compartments converted to lavatories in the 1890s, so by the turn of the century they are likely to have been relegated to short-distance and secondary passenger workings. I only know of two photos of them in trains: the 1902 photo near Sheffield, a crop from which I posted above, and a c. 1878 photo at Belper station. As to whether one might turn up working through to Barrow, one would have to look at the timetable and eliminate the long-distance through carriages that can be identified from the surviving carriage marshalling books. The July, August, and September, 1903 Time Tables (which I have in the Ian Allan reprint) shows through carriages from Barrow Central on trains leaving at 8.45 and 9.55 am, 1.00, 3.40, 4.18, and 5,45 pm; the 8.45 am, 1.00, and 4.18 pm are through to St Pancras so I think those can be discounted. I think one can also discount the 6.50 am from Ramsden Dock to St Pancras; the 12. noon from Ramsden Dock to Leeds and Bradford also sounds a bit classy. But in the absence of other evidence, one could perhaps include one of the 1875 carriages to Bradford at 9.55 am or Leeds at 3.40 pm - that Bradford train stopped everywhere so sounds the best bet! (All plus of course the balancing workings back down to Barrow.) There was at least one train by which Furness carriages worked through onto the Midland; which was that?

[WFPettigrew]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Interesting question

Thank you for such an informative and detailed reply, even by your standards!  

 

The Ramsden Dock services were boat trains for/off the Belfast and Isle of Man steamers in the halcyon days before someone invented Heysham Harbour (boo hiss!), and so yes were prestigious formations I would bet.  But as time wore on towards the Great War, even with the loss of the MR boat trains, the workings of through carriages got more and more complex.   The most curious is the LNWR one from Cambridge to Whitehaven that had no direct return working (someone in the Cumbrian Railways Assocation traced the two carriages that left Cambridge using the LNWR carriage marshalling books all the way up to Whitehaven, and then had them coming back separately the next day on trains to Euston, after which not surprisingly it was like searching for a needle in a haystack to work out what happened next!)  There were through workings with the MR alone from/to Bradford, Leeds and Hellfield to variously Whitehaven, Barrow and Windermere Lake Side.  I haven't tried to match with the Working Time Tables but there can hardly have been an FR passenger train that didn't convey a through carriage either onto the MR or the LNWR at Carnforth, and some of the latter were actually destined for LYR metals in Manchester and Liverpool. 

 

The FR certainly ran its own through carriages.  It's "most curious" was the weekly single brake third from Whitehaven to Southampton Docks via Hellfield, Cheltenham and the MSWJ for those making the start of a journey to a new life in America, which we have discussed on RMWeb previously (unlike the passengers, the carriage will have had to make the return journey to Cumbria although I know you posted that you hadn't found how that happened).   That brake 3rd was not corridor fitted, as the FR did not have such a beast, and in your previous posting you said it has six compartments, so would be a Diagram 13 (originally built for the branch line services but fairly quickly moved to mainline stopping services).  The only corridor fitted coaches on the FR were corridor 3rds and corridor composites - of which the FR had the grand total of 4 from 1904 (when the Diagram 16 corridor 3rds were introduced) and 8 from 1906 (when the D18 corridor comps came into being) - it was only in 1921-1924 that 6 further corridor comps of D17 were introduced, and that's dangerously close to the time when pre-grouping people lose all interest...

 

Clearly those 8 pre-war carriages must have done some degree of turn and turn about with MR/LNW/LYR vehicles, as otherwise the FR would have lost out financially.  But there is no surviving record of FR carriage marshalling.  I personally don't have the MR and LNWR lists and even these are not complete as I understand, so there would be a good dollop of uncertainty even if the MR and LNWR lists were scrutinised.

 

But you may know differently?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[WFPettigrew]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

October 1907, so this probably marks the time of their final withdrawal

 

Sigh.  That rules me out then for a model, with a 1913-1914 timeframe.  

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

The FR certainly ran its own through carriages.  It's "most curious" was the weekly single brake third from Whitehaven to Southampton Docks via Hellfield, Cheltenham and the MSWJ for those making the start of a journey to a new life in America, which we have discussed on RMWeb previously (unlike the passengers, the carriage will have had to make the return journey to Cumbria although I know you posted that you hadn't found how that happened).   That brake 3rd was not corridor fitted, as the FR did not have such a beast, and in your previous posting you said it has six compartments, so would be a Diagram 13 (originally built for the branch line services but fairly quickly moved to mainline stopping services). 

 

Thanks. I'd forgotten commenting on that Southampton through carriage! I ought to have remembered it when there was a flurry of activity on the M&SWJR thread recently.

 

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Clearly those 8 pre-war carriages must have done some degree of turn and turn about with MR/LNW/LYR vehicles, as otherwise the FR would have lost out financially.  But there is no surviving record of FR carriage marshalling.  I personally don't have the MR and LNWR lists and even these are not complete as I understand, so there would be a good dollop of uncertainty even if the MR and LNWR lists were scrutinised.

 

indeed, we are at the mercy of - or rather, thankful for, the documents that do survive. There are Midland England & Scotland marshalling books for the summers of 1902, 1907, 1910, 1914, and 1915, so any through carriages to/from Barrow or Heysham* that were attached to a Scotch Express at any point can be identified, and also London - Leeds, Bradford, and Heysham for 1910, 1911, 1914, and 1915. But it's the local trains that are elusive; the only marshalling book covering these is for October 1922 onwards.

 

*And of course also Stranraer. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Compound2632
typo.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

There are Midland England & Scotland marshalling books for the summers of 1902, 1907, 1920, 1914, and 1915, so any through carriages to/from Barrow or Heysham* that were attached to a Scotch Express at any point can be identified, and also London - Leeds, Bradford, and Heysham for 1910, 1911, 1914, and 1915. But it's the local trains that are elusive; the only marshalling book covering these is for October 1922 onwards.

 

Argh - so its not even possible to even vaguely cobble it together, as the post war timetable will have been so different to what happened before the conflict.  

[Compound2632]

@WFPettigrew: in the list of England - Scotland marshalling books, I have corrected 1920 to 1910 - a simple typo.

[Citadel]

Fascinating information - guess FR carriages would have been seen in the Carlisle area in the 1890's (?)  Another livery to attempt.

 

Spent last night adapting the LRM 32' Luggage Composite to try and take it back to a slightly earlier era - so oil lamps on the roof and the individual upper footboards under each door

 

 

Still have to add chain / clasp brakes, side chains etc.   Just plonked the body/roof on to take a photo so sorry it's a bit wonky.

 

 

Had a play with Blender and drew up the oil lamps - a friend printed them off for me.  Lost the one at the front so attempted to cobble one up from a couple of Gibson bearings - not really good enough so think will have to rectify.

 

There's a fair few other details that aren't quite right (e.g. the buffer beams etc.) but once it's sprayed black hopefully not too noticeable.  Also have to fit micro strip above the footboards to represent the support irons - hence the black pen....

Edited December 7, 2022 by Citadel

[WFPettigrew]

55 minutes ago, Citadel said:

guess FR carriages would have been seen in the Carlisle area in the 1890's (?)

 

I think on the balance of the evidence, no.  

 

Certainly in the latter stages of the Great War and afterwards, yes FR carriages and indeed locos were used right through to Carlisle.   But before the war, and certainly before the turn of the century, my understanding is that FR services terminated at Whitehaven Bransty on the mainline (and FR hauled passenger services on the independent Cleator and Workington terminated at Siddick Junction north of Workington) and the LNWR worked separate trains north.  There is no mention of through carriages from/to Carlisle in the timetables before the war.  Things might have been different had the FR not bottled buying the Whitehaven Junction Railway, as that would have meant an FR service all the way to Maryport and the start of the Maryport and Carlisle route.

[Citadel]

 

5 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

 

I think on the balance of the evidence, no.  

 

Certainly in the latter stages of the Great War and afterwards, yes FR carriages and indeed locos were used right through to Carlisle.   But before the war, and certainly before the turn of the century, my understanding is that FR services terminated at Whitehaven Bransty on the mainline (and FR hauled passenger services on the independent Cleator and Workington terminated at Siddick Junction north of Workington) and the LNWR worked separate trains north.  There is no mention of through carriages from/to Carlisle in the timetables before the war.  Things might have been different had the FR not bottled buying the Whitehaven Junction Railway, as that would have meant an FR service all the way to Maryport and the start of the Maryport and Carlisle route.

What a shame - not even a stray horse box on the way to Carlisle races….  Was really coveting one of the D38 LRM kits (especially when I saw the photo on the Taff Vale Models website…. )
 

https://taffvalemodels.ecwid.com/CC018-Furness-Railway-LMS-Dia-38-Horse-Box-p184439688

Edited December 7, 2022 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

7 hours ago, Citadel said:

Fascinating information - guess FR carriages would have been seen in the Carlisle area in the 1890's (?)  Another livery to attempt.

 

Spent last night adapting the LRM 32' Luggage Composite to try and take it back to a slightly earlier era - so oil lamps on the roof and the individual upper footboards under each door

 

 

Still have to add chain / clasp brakes, side chains etc.   Just plonked the body/roof on to take a photo so sorry it's a bit wonky.

 

 

Had a play with Blender and drew up the oil lamps - a friend printed them off for me.  Lost the one at the front so attempted to cobble one up from a couple of Gibson bearings - not really good enough so think will have to rectify.

 

There's a fair few other details that aren't quite right (e.g. the buffer beams etc.) but once it's sprayed black hopefully not too noticeable.  Also have to fit micro strip above the footboards to represent the support irons - hence the black pen....

I hope that you dont mind , but I may do do a couple like this. 

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Citadel said:

What a shame - not even a stray horse box on the way to Carlisle races…. 

 

I should think a horsebox would be legit. 

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

1 hour ago, Citadel said:

What a shame - not even a stray horse box on the way to Carlisle races…. 

 

I should think a horsebox would be legit. 

 

Oh definitely!  Several perhaps?! 

 

The LRM model (of which I have one awaiting the attention of a soldering iron) is of the earlier and more numerous Metro built horsebox, the D38 but the FR also had a later version, D37 as modelled by JP Richards and now in the NRM collection:

 

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co439608/model-horsebox-model-railway-wagon

 

Getting away from ultramarine blue horseboxes, I wonder where/how horses were unloaded to go to the Carlislse racecourse at Durdar?

 

I am guessing that it would be at one of the plethora of goods depots in the city... Or... actually both Dalston and Wreay stations were pretty much equidistant from the racecourse and only half a mile further away than Citadel as the crow flies.  (And the walk in from either would be less stressful for horses than taking them out through the cobbled streets between the back to backs of Currock and Upperby. )

 

I have an interest in trying to unravel Edwardian/Georgian pre war racecourse traffic flows to get horses to Cartmel racecourse, but previous discussions on Stephen's D299 thread have not really conclusively worked out how such things were done, and getting to Carlisle with so many potential offload points is even more complex!

 

 

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

I wonder where/how horses were unloaded to go to the Carlislse racecourse at Durdar?

 

I am guessing that it would be at one of the plethora of goods depots in the city... 

 

Usually, horses, being passenger traffic, would be handled at passenger stations. The typical country wayside station has a horse and carriage dock adjacent to the passenger facilities - looks like part of the goods facilities, and of course might also be used for loading or unloading an end-loading goods wagon. Part of the same siding and loading bank may also be taken up with the cattle pens. In urban areas and especially in larger towns and cities where the passenger and goods stations were separate, there's usually provision for handling NCPS at the passenger station - for instance, Birmingham New Street had fish sidings.

[Brassey]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Usually, horses, being passenger traffic, would be handled at passenger stations. The typical country wayside station has a horse and carriage dock adjacent to the passenger facilities

 

It was not unknown to load/unload horses on the passenger platforms too.