Citadel's Workbench - Carlisle in late Victorian times

[Citadel]

On 19/02/2023 at 10:31, Jol Wilkinson said:

A detailed description of your technique would be useful.. I have a number of van kits of various brands where I need to fit the plastic roofs supplied. I have the smaller roller set so could do metal roofs for these.

 

Jol

 

Here goes, nothing too ground breaking really and based on advice received from others but have been through a number of iterations so worth sharing I guess...

 

 

Spent ages trying to find something of the correct radius - in the end found that a Halfords 500ml rattle can was ideal for the 42' arc roof at least.  Goes without saying that it needs to be empty and then I punched a small hole in it in case the expansion on heating causes it to explode.  Top tip, don't be impatient and do this in the kitchen thinking it's fully empty - otherwise you may spend rather longer cleaning the floor than you intended (this comment based on personal experience)....

 

Know that other curved surfaces are available (e.g. wine/beer bottles) but am always a bit worried that the glass might shatter in the boiling water - also the high thermal mass makes them quite hot to handle and you are tempted to remove the styrene sheet before it has fully cooled.  

 

Originally started by taping the plasticard directly to the curved former but after soaking in boiling water the adhesive tends to transfer leaving quite a big clean-up task on the finished roof.  Secret weapon here is relatively thick polyester film (c. 175 micron) which is waterproof, thermally stable, good release properties and has a nice stiffness to spread the load and avoid scalloping at the edges of the roof.  Other plastic sheets are available it's just that we make this material at work so I have an inexhaustible supply - PM me if you would like a couple of sheets.

 

The other weapon is duct tape.  Start by taping one of the long edges of the PET film to form a pocket which I then slip the roof into.

 

 

Then start in the middle and apply one strip of tape applying tension to curve the styrene to the shape of the can - the duct tape is quite stretchy so helps a little in this respect.  Then work outwards to the top/bottom of the can overlapping the tape and keeping the tension as even as possible.

 

 

Then dip the part of the circumference containing the roof into c. 1cm of boiling water in a baking tray.  We have an induction hob so actually turn it on at a low level to keep the water hot.  Generally give it about 3 - 5 mins but not really sure it needs that long.

 

 

After removal it's important to fully cool the styrene sheet so it retains its new shape - I run it under a cold tap for a minute or so.  Then get a scalpel out and run down one edge of the PET layer and peel back.  Curiously satisfying, in my experience the styrene assumes the shape of the can with very little springback etc.  Also very little shrinkage and the edges are nice and straight due to the even tension.  I know in the photos I've left the lid on the can - more really something to pick it up with, I just use the metal portion when forming the roof (which fortunately is just long enough for the 42' carriage.

 

 

Here's the before and after in terms of roof profile

 

 

And it fits - woo-hoo!

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Citadel

[Chas Levin]

Hello Mike, I've wrestled with plastic roof arcs too, and seen them change over time, long after building and it is a pain.

 

I've followed @Jol Wilkinson's suggestion and used brass on a couple of recent builds and it's a huge relief!! It's more work - I don't have suitable bending bars so I use a variety of household objects of smaller diameters and a variety of pads and soft surfaces - but you know it won't change shape later and the best thing is that if it's a brass body, you can solder the roof in place from the inside, which also adds to the body rigidity considerably...

[Portchullin Tatty]

On 20/02/2023 at 13:22, Chas Levin said:

Hello Mike, I've wrestled with plastic roof arcs too, and seen them change over time, long after building and it is a pain.

 

I've followed @Jol Wilkinson's suggestion and used brass on a couple of recent builds and it's a huge relief!! It's more work - I don't have suitable bending bars so I use a variety of household objects of smaller diameters and a variety of pads and soft surfaces - but you know it won't change shape later and the best thing is that if it's a brass body, you can solder the roof in place from the inside, which also adds to the body rigidity considerably...

 

I find the real advantage of brass or similar roofs is that you can secure them down with nuts/bolts.

 

I do this with tongues, either in the brake compartments or at the ends of the vehical.  These run down the floor but are left about a millimeter too short so that when the bolt is inserted, it pulls the roof tight onto the ends with out any visible faultlines.  

 

Once you have access through the roof, it is easy (easier) to complete and populate the interior.  It is also easier to paint when they can be seperated.  You do, however, have to put a piece of rod along the top of the carriage side to stop it flopping around.

 

Some pictures here:

 

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/10/27/midland-six-wheeled-full-brakes-part-1/

 

 

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, Portchullin Tatty said:

 

I find the real advantage of brass or similar roofs is that you can secure them down with nuts/bolts.

 

I do this with tongues, either in the brake compartments or at the ends of the vehical.  These run down the floor but are left about a millimeter too short so that when the bolt is inserted, it pulls the roof tight onto the ends with out any visible faultlines.  

 

Once you have access through the roof, it is easy (easier) to complete and populate the interior.  It is also easier to paint when they can be seperated.  You do, however, have to put a piece of rod along the top of the carriage side to stop it flopping around.

 

Some pictures here:

 

https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/10/27/midland-six-wheeled-full-brakes-part-1/

 

 

That's a very interesting way of fixing the roof Mark, with the 'legs' that allow fixing through the floor and, as you say, give roof, body and chassis as three separately paintable units. I've tended to make floors removable and build the roof and body as one unit but that does look good. Do you also use this system on longer vehicles (eight-wheel bogie carriages for instance) and if so, do you add a third set of legs in the middle for stability?

(Excuse me Mike for pursuing this on your thread, hope it's ok?).

[Citadel]

12 hours ago, Portchullin Tatty said:

I find the real advantage of brass or similar roofs is that you can secure them down with nuts/bolts

 

On 20/02/2023 at 13:22, Chas Levin said:

Hello Mike, I've wrestled with plastic roof arcs too, and seen them change over time, long after building and it is a pain.

 

Aargh!  Conflicted 😐   Of course you are both right (and Jol as well), really ought to give brass roofs a go (though my brass cutting and rolling skills are somewhat lacking).  Can definitely see the benefits of a nice rigid removable roof - especially given that I'd really like to get into internal lighting of the carriages.  OK, will try and start with the 54' MR clerestory I'm building.

 

Back in the world of plastic though my attempt to remove the roof from the 42' full brake didn't end well...

 

 

An easily removable roof eh - that will never catch on...  I'm building a second 42' brake (they are my absolute favourite LNWR carriage) in parallel with tarting up my old one so had to make two:

 

--

 

Did my usual spray job.  Halfords grey primer followed by an overspray with white to lighten it up and give a bit of relief (I find if I start the weathering from a pristine white roof I'm maybe making life a bit more difficult that I need to.  Then some weathering powder - maybe still slightly botchy but not fixed down yet so will go over it again with a soft brush:

 

 

Here's the roof sitting on top of the new 42' brake (so no glue at this stage, just gravity).  To be honest do buy all the comments above re: brass but if you do go down the plastic route (and it is undoubtedly easier/quicker) if you make the curve correct before you try to glue it down you'll be in a much better place

 

 

Better get stuck in and finish the others - have another 4 42' carriages on the go at the moment.  All that glazing, door handles etc. - will keep me busy... 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Citadel

[Citadel]

All finished, pleased the roof now sorted and wasn't too much effort really.  Gave it some lamps as a treat after the operation.

 

 

And now it has company in the shape of WCJS 100 (or 1C0 thanks to the most recent sheet of HMRS transfers - need to get the Rotring out...)

 

 

Best of friends...

 

 

So what next, have a couple of D162's on the go - really like those half compartments at the ends.  40 were built for the WCJS in 1887/8 and looking through A Regiister of West Coast Joint Stock see one of them was Number 1 - that will save on transfers....  Treated myself to a new sheet of A3 as my backdrop but must have optical brighteners in it of something and it's sent the colour balance of my camera wonky.

 

 

Or maybe should get cracking on some M&CR underframes

 

 

But in reality think that's railway time for today, need to get lining out the spare room above the double garage 🙂

[Citadel]

The room above the garage takes shape….

 

 

Now what could I possibly put in there I wonder 🤔

[Coal Tank]

That room looks lovely Mike 

[Citadel]

Have been having a bit of a Maryport & Carlisle day.  Firstly kicked off building the 27' 4" underframe for the D11 brake third.

 

 

The angle I took the photo at is making the springs look a little odd.  They are two layers of 0.4mm N/S with the W-iron behind this. Along the top you are actually seeing the two layers of N/S rather than an extra leaf - need to fill with a bit of solder and then flatten with a file - to be honest though largely hidden by the top footboard.  Last night finished the etch design for the D9 Composite, the D10 All Third and the D11 Brake, will get it off the PPD hopefully this week.  Quite excited about a bit of teaking....

 

 

 

 There's quite a few Midland sprung W-irons to make up the space, have to confess am getting a bit engrossed in all the discussion around goods loads and tarpaulins in the D299 thread - feel inspired!

Edited February 27, 2023 by Citadel

[Portchullin Tatty]

5 hours ago, Citadel said:

Have been having a bit of a Maryport & Carlisle day.  Firstly kicked off building the 27' 4" underframe for the D11 brake third.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a possible suggestion........

 

I do my ends as a double layer of etch, laminated together.  The inner can have footsteps that fold down and poke through the holes in the outer.  I do this as i find that the half etching on the flat ends vulnerable to getting bumped and once you have a kink in the etch, you will never get it out.  it is less of a problem with the sides due to the fold over top/bottom plus in this case you abve what appears to be three layer panelling.

[Portchullin Tatty]

On 25/02/2023 at 08:20, Chas Levin said:

Do you also use this system on longer vehicles (eight-wheel bogie carriages for instance) and if so, do you add a third set of legs in the middle for stability?

 

 

Yes, it works just as well for longer vehicles but there is a point where a further fixing to the centre becomes desirable.  in practise, the best solution is to do them one compartment in from the end as that seems to be the best place to keep all firmly there.

 

I have done it with a 65ft dining car but this had an extruded aluminium roof so distortion was not much of an issue.  What was an issue was getting the glue to adhere properly to the aluminium when placed under stress when it is tightened.  I made the tongues on this one pretty close to the right dimension and them had a significant contact surface between the top of the tongue and the underside of the aliminium.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Portchullin Tatty

[Citadel]

18 hours ago, Portchullin Tatty said:

I do my ends as a double layer of etch, laminated together.  The inner can have footsteps that fold down and poke through the holes in the outer.  I do this as i find that the half etching on the flat ends vulnerable to getting bumped and once you have a kink in the etch, you will never get it out.  

 

Once again fair point, with the D9 composite where there is half etch right round the end have done an additional stiffener around the edge that I intended to solder to the rear.  One to bear in mind for the future, appreciate the advice.

 

Anyway, last nights project was to bone up on how to represent unpainted wood - had a play with the acrylics and washes on an LNWR Deal Wagon kit.  Inspired in this respect by the wagons in @magmouse's blog which I find absolutely stunning.  The one with the barrels and the pads beneath them made from knotted string - I mean how do you top that.  Even Mrs Citadel was impressed, comment was 'why don't you do interesting things like that rather than churning out loads of carriages....'   

 

 

Not really sure whether I've got the wood colour exactly right but like the character it's given the wagon.  Seems a shame to cover it up but a good excuse to have a trip to Costa on a wooden coffee stirrer expedition - question though, are there better sources of 'deal' available?

 

 

 

Still got the chains to fit.  Also conscious that didn't quite have sufficient room above the coupling hook to apply the end numbers.  Reading LNWR liveries looks like this practice started in August 1882 and these wagons were first built in 1877 so will have to be an early one(!)

 

 

Also had a play with some LNW wagon plates I'd added to the corner of an etch.  The one above was painted in a fit of uninformed optimism re: how easy it would be - informed pessimism has now set in.  On the one above went for black followed by white - next time might spray the whole plate white then carefully flood in a black wash around the letters.  What's the best way to paint things like this?

 

The camera is quite cruel but in the end quite pleased with how this turned out.  Quite enjoying the planking so next in the list is a pair or LNWR bolsters (I'll be getting the 5 plank opens and tarpaulins out soon)

Edited February 28, 2023 by Citadel

[WFPettigrew]

That's really very good painting of the planking!  I am impressed how you've got real colour variations within each plank.  Superb stuff!

 

If you are using acrylics, have you seen the Vallejo "Old and New Wood Effects" pack - available from all good, etc.  No connection, again etc., but I found it has the right mix of colours and a strategy for how to achieve, err, old and new wood effects.  

 

All the best

 

Neil 


PS with the numberplate, paint white in a durable coat, paint black thinly, then use wet and dry paper on a flat surface to sand off the black and leave the white showing?

[Citadel]

17 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

That's really very good painting of the planking!  I am impressed how you've got real colour variations within each plank.  Superb stuff!

 

If you are using acrylics, have you seen the Vallejo "Old and New Wood Effects" pack - available from all good, etc.  No connection, again etc., but I found it has the right mix of colours and a strategy for how to achieve, err, old and new wood effects.  

 

All the best

 

Neil 


PS with the numberplate, paint white in a durable coat, paint black thinly, then use wet and dry paper on a flat surface to sand off the black and leave the white showing?

Thanks for the kind words.  The ‘Old and New Wood Effects’ pack was a Christmas present and this was its first outing.  Have to admit I went off-piste pretty quickly.  The painting of @magmouse’s  4-plank with casks was also a source of inspiration:

 

 

*** Addendum, it’s actually the three plank with the bricks that has the painting (but those knotty things are just too good to miss…)

 

Started with a base-coat of IDF Sand Grey with a couple of subtle greyer blotches added.  Then the grain pattern is Sepia Shade Game Wash lightly watered down and added with a largish (No. 2) brush.  Did a plank at a time letting surface tension do it’s thing.  Was very conscious not to leave a big blob of tint where I removed the painbrush, when right up at the edge drew it down onto the next plank and then repeated the process.  Then toned everything down with two coats of Dark Grey Game Wash applied in the same way.  Think doing this on a horizontal surface helped.

 

Around the plate idea, good one.  Had heard that so will give it a go.  Last night I was being so impatient didn’t really let the white dry fully so the sandpaper just removed it completely.  I’ll do it with gloss enamel and let it dry for a couple of days.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Citadel
Added addendum - wrong link…

[magmouse]

Well, I'm blushing...

 

But let's be clear - whatever Mrs Citadel may think, your carriages are exceptionally good, at both a 'technical' level of fit-and-finish, and in terms of capturing character. I will be more than pleased if I can achieve the same level when I eventually get to doing some carriages.

 

I really like your wood effect too - just the right feel for wood that has seen weather and staining from wet and various spilt loads, etc. Again, great character in this wagon.

 

With the plates, I think your options are:

 

 - paint black and dry-brush the white, with a good-sized brush held almost horizontally. Build the paint up in layers, so you don't end up wiping off as much as you put on.

 - paint white and flood with black. Maybe black artist's ink, rather than paint? This really hinges on how crispy the etched lettering is, and it looks like you are at the limit of the etching process's resolution.

 - as suggested by Neil, paint white, then black, and rub off. I would do white enamel, leave to set for a couple of days at least, then acrylic black and rub off when touch-dry. Rather than sandpaper or emery paper, perhaps an abrasive block ('garyflex' or similar) so as to be a bit softer, or even a pencil eraser.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

54 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

If you are using acrylics, have you seen the Vallejo "Old and New Wood Effects" pack - available from all good, etc.  No connection, again etc., but I found it has the right mix of colours and a strategy for how to achieve, err, old and new wood effects.  

 

Thanks for that tip, Neil - selecting the colours to use to get wood effects is always a trial, I find. You think you have some useful colours, and then start to mix them only to find the brown has turned green, or something.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Citadel said:

question though, are there better sources of 'deal' available?

 

Coffee stirrers are free, or cheap if you buy in but on the 'net, but are often not very flat or fine/straight grained.

 

The ship modelling suppliers offer lengths of high-quality wood, such as Lime, which is pale in colour, and very fine grained.

 

I read one article about adding wood loads in the form of deals (I think by Barry Norman), where he decided actual wood was not convincing as wood, and made the load from strips of plasticard painted to look like wood, so there is that...

 

Nick.

[Citadel]

The 14' 6" horsebox has been usurped in the smallest and cutest wagon stakes by a pair of D12 dumb buffered timber bolsters (LRM kits)

 

 

My first resin cast kit, was impressed by the fineness and crispness of the detail but a fair few small bubbles to fill (guess this largely goes with the territory).  Had multiple attempts at plate painting techniques - in the end painted with white enamel, bled in black acrylic and then once dry corrected any errors by scratching away the black with the point of a scalpel.  And yes, the number on the plate is wrong (aargh)...  The original was eaten by the carpet monster so had to substitute - when taking the picture had a one in four chance of photographing this particular plate, sod's law I guess.  Also given that the two bolster wagons essentially pivot like bogies under the load wanted them to rotate smoothly - drilled out the hole to take an Alan Gibson frame bearing and drilled the bolster to take a 2mm brass rod. 

 

Here's the two of them together.  They still need the chain fitting - have run out of blackening solution so will follow at a later date

 

 

Immediately rushed out into the garden to fins some suitable tree trunks - not the finial version as still a bit green...  I've heard that mature heather makes quite convincing trunks - will take my secateurs next time we go for a walk in the hills

 

 

You'll also notice that none of my stock has couplings at the moment - it was one of those things I was going to finalise when I actually built a layout - the ends do look a little bare though.

 

 

[Citadel]

Seat frenzy, DAS modelling clay, kitchen knife for straight edges (don’t tell Mrs Citadel) and then cocktail stick for buttoned effect.

 

 

Really must get out more!

[magmouse]

7 hours ago, Citadel said:

a pair of D12 dumb buffered timber bolsters (LRM kits)

 

These look great - loads of character coming through. Thanks too for the tip about the bearings, which I shall bear in mind for the pair of GWR 'mites' I have on my planned list of stock.

 

Nick.

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mike the bolsters look great. Where did you get the Wagon plates from? 

[Citadel]

 

39 minutes ago, Coal Tank said:

Where did you get the Wagon plates from? 

 

Hello John.  Popped them on a little bit of spare space on the MR 54' Clerestory Composite etch.  The text was much finer than the recommended tolerances from PPD but was pleased how they turned out (cruel enlargement below).

 

 

There's not much else going on re: decoration / embellishment on an LNWR wagon from the 1880's/90's so think they add that little extra.  Am just about to embark on building the MR coach to test the etch then I'll be ordering some more (they tended to hunt in pairs).  Will be in touch when I do so, happy to send you some plates.  Weak excuse for the delay is that I finally snapped the last of my 0.4mm/0.5mm drills so had nothing to open up the door handle locating holes before building up the sides - now resolved....

Edited March 5, 2023 by Citadel

[Coal Tank]

Hi Mike some plates would be nice, Thank you. May when the Midland coach etch is ready so only one post as I live in España. Also would it be possible to aquí re some of the W. C window that you do as they look fabulous. 

I have Just ordered a B class 0-8-0from LRM and the small 0-4-2tank 

John 

[apl31]

Very nice etching of plates. You mentioned making them a finer tolerance than PPD recommended. If I am reading their recommendations correctly, it should be 0.18mm minimum. Do you know what you managed on the plates? Eg the width of the legs of the “L” for instance. On a similar subject do you know what minimum width of detail you could etch (not necessarily as a full half etch) to show an engraved line. As an example to produce a line to define “gaps” between leaf springs.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Firstly, thin material is best for finer detail, which is why .010" or thinner is used for number and name plates. I have put etched plates onto .012" brass in a loco kit which worked, but they weren't as crisp as the plates from 247 or Narrow Planet.

 

For leaf spring "gaps" I have used 0.1mm width for half etch lines on .012" brass. This works well, remembering that paint can fill/obliterate fine detail to some degree (especially if applied too thickly).