Poll: GWR Pannier Tanks; time for a modern spec OO loco.

[MrWolf]

There might well be a good number of people modelling the post WWII GWR / WR scenes, but the original purpose of this poll was regarding the lack of locomotives designed and built well before this time. It is not designed to exclude anyone modelling post 1940, as many of the locos survived well beyond that and would benefit those modellers too by providing a variant that isn't currently available.

That's also a good reason for a manufacturer to take up the idea.

[Andy Keane]

27 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Does it simplify matters if I share what I put into the poll?

I would be most interested in being able to buy a model of a loco built before 1914 in the condition that it would have been c1934.

If for reasons of commercial viability it has to be modelled in its c1946 condition, I would be prepared to backdate it.

Reliable running and the means to maintain it should be a given.

I pretty much share all of Mr Wolf's views as he states them. Even on a layout that is going to be 18 feet by 12 I want to run locos at (scale) walking pace most of the time - smooth slow running is key as well as it being a pretty good model.

Andy

[Pendennis]

I model the post WW2 GWR so I only have a passing interest in the BR built pannier tanks.  I have four Bachmann 57xx/8750 tanks, they run as well as can be expected for an 0-6-0T and, although the ancestry of the design is many years old, I think the level of detail still passes muster.  I also have a couple of Mainline 57xx non-runners that just sit on shed.  OK I have to be very careful with renumbering them to ensure the chosen loco has top-feed during the period modelled.

 

However if I was a model manufacturer [which I am not!] would I choose to go up against Bachmann with an updated 57xx/8750, probably not.  The Blue Box team could do as they did with the Class 66 when competition appeared, they’d continue to produce a selection of liveries and try and undercut the new entrant.

 

If I was a manufacturer and wanted to produce 2022 standard pannier tank I’d look at other types and I think the 2021 or 2721 would fit the bill perfectly, they probably have as great a choice of liveries as the Collett panniers and, crucially from a marketing point of view, a number lasted into the BR era and received BR livery.

 

Martin

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It is tempting, but would be tedious, to set up a rival poll on the simple question: if a manufacturer was to produce a new-tooled Great Western 0-6-0 with PT and ST options, which would you buy?

 

I have succumbed to temptation...

 

 

[Neal Ball]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have succumbed to temptation...

 

 

All you are doing is diverting attention from the Pannier Poll.

 

As I said a couple of hours ago a Saddle tank and Pre-WW1 poll could be done after this poll has run its course.
 

Now all you have done is make the job harder for any manufacturer to decide which model to make.

[Andy Keane]

5 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

All you are doing is diverting attention from the Pannier Poll.

 

As I said a couple of hours ago a Saddle tank and Pre-WW1 poll could be done after this poll has run its course.
 

Now all you have done is make the job harder for any manufacturer to decide which model to make.

The rest of us can avoid succumbing to temptation - I have no plans to vote in a new poll until you are done Neal.

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

 

If they don't participate in (presumably because they don't much care for) this kind of discussion then is it not reasonable to take the proportions from Neal's two GWR polls as a pretty sound indicator of Period Preference? Those that care are commenting; those that don't would be equally happy and well catered for regardless of the end result...?

 

 

Don’t forget all we’re seeing is responses to this specific survey which so far has had a relatively small take up, under 200 responders. Pre C19 at exhibitions the manufacturers had stands at major shows, and will undoubtedly have feedback from those as well as reading other forums/social media and direct contact.

 

Again emphasis on this not being a criticism of this specific survey, but it is a small cross section.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Now all you have done is make the job harder for any manufacturer to decide which model to make.

 

No, simply acquiring more information. My poll refers directly to your poll. Let's see what happens!

 

I don't really believe that manufacturers base their commercial decisions on the outcome of such polls - at least, not if what they actually produce is any guide!

[PMP]

36 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

There might well be a good number of people modelling the post WWII GWR / WR scenes, but the original purpose of this poll was regarding the lack of locomotives designed and built well before this time.

I’d suggest if that were the case the survey should have had a specific cut off date and would also have excluded the 54/64/74/57xx families.

[PMP]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, simply acquiring more information. My poll refers directly to your poll. Let's see what happens!

 

I don't really believe that manufacturers base their commercial decisions on the outcome of such polls - at least, not if what they actually produce is any guide!

You need to change your poll with at least removing ‘none of the above’. If every D&E modeller responds it’ll tell you there’s no commercial market for any panniers at all…

 

[MrWolf]

I doubt that the D & E modellers will be even reading this. I don't read articles about modern image models, having neither the time, knowledge or interest to contribute.

[Miss Prism]

"It looks very nice, Mr Shopkeeper, but the Bachmann one is exactly the same at half the price"

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Miss Prism
image reinstated

[jamieb]

A lack of drawings for the older prototypes need not be a problem,as there are undoubtedly people out there who will criticise what is produced to the minutest detail.If a prospective manufacturer can just tap into their vast knowledge BEFORE they start work on anything,then problem solved!

(Slightly tongue in cheek post but no doubt a self proclaimed'expert' will show up after the event)

[Neal Ball]

2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

"It looks very nice, Mr Shopkeeper, but the Bachmann one is exactly the same at half the price"

 

 

 

It is very nice - but the new one will have (I hope) all the bells and whistles, whereas the Bachmann (others are available) wont!

 

I understand people are buying the new Bachmann class 47 at about £300.... and at the same time presumably are still buying a Hornby Railroad one for a lot less.

[Harlequin]

I guess it's just human nature that if you set up a simple poll asking voters to choose between three shades of brown, Fawn, Taupe or Beige, someone will ask why you didn't include Almond, claim that the poll is biased and then set up a rival poll that includes Orange because it's their favourite "shade of brown"...

 

Ho hum...

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Harlequin

[Neal Ball]

4 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I guess it's just human nature that if you set up a simple poll asking voters to choose between three shades of brown, Fawn, Taupe or Beige, someone will ask why you didn't include Almond, claim that the poll is biased and then set up a rival poll that includes Orange because it's their favourite "shade of brown"...

 

Ho hum...

 

 

I guess the other thing is that (here) Oranges are cheaper than Almonds - Pays your money and take your choice.... Its currently Orange cropping season here, you can pick one for free, any others would be stealing. Almonds of course are not in season.

[melmerby]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I think you meant to say panniers.

Duly corrected.

[GWR8700]

I would love to see an updated 57xx/8750 model.  However, it must be available in pre-1942 condition and convertible to EM gauge for me to fork out over £140 on it.

 

If not, I will continue to work onto my Bachmann 57xx locos.

 

Would love to see a 74xx and 64xx in pre topfeed condition too.

 

Not overly bothered about 2021, 2721, 1854 or 850 Class locos as they are available from good quality kits.

Edited February 8, 2022 by GWR8700

[Neal Ball]

It’s very interesting to see that nearly a week in and we have 121 members votes. 
 

It’s also interesting to see the spread of years being modelled with a lot concentrating on the 20’s and 30’s. (In total 86 modellers for these decades.)

 

I would say that there is a clear demand for a manufacturer to release a new R-T-R Pannier tank loco. Here’s hoping which ever company decides to produce one is able to incorporate my suggested specifications:

 

• Pre-WW2 design of loco.
• Top-feed as appropriate for the livery era. (Topfeed was introduced around 1942), however, some locos were seen with BR livery and no topfeed.
• Plenty of weight (die cast chassis);
• NEM couplers is a given.
• Provision for sound / stay-alive. (Included as standard, or the space for them)
• Good quality motor. (Questions remain over 3 pole vs 5 pole)
• Detail variations as appropriate.
• Full backhead details / fully detailed cab.

 

[Miss Prism]

I'd like to see a 50:1 or 60:1 gear ratio, for smooth acceleration and deceleration at low speeds.

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

...concentrating on the 20’s and 30’s...

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Pre-WW2 design of loco.

 

Pre-1900, surely, looking at the poll...?

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

60:1 gear ratio

Now you're talking!

[Neal Ball]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

 

Pre-1900, surely, looking at the poll...?

 

 

You are comparing two separate items from the Poll.

 

The Pre-WW2 design comment relates to a suggested specification for a new loco.

 

Then the comment about 20's and 30's is the result of the poll, talking about the numbers of modellers for that period.

 

The results are interesting in as much as a number of people are asking for a Collett loco designed post 1928, but that is then balanced by a large number of people asking for locos built from about 1890 or so. A good interesting mix for any potential manufacturer to consider.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

The results are interesting in as much as a number of people are asking for a Collett loco designed post 1928, but that is then balanced by a large number of people asking for locos built from about 1890 or so. A good interesting mix for any potential manufacturer to consider.

 

On current showing, 35% for Collett types and 65% for pre-Churchward types; I wouldn't call that "balanced by" though it's not quite "swamped by".

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

It’s very interesting to see that nearly a week in and we have 121 members votes. 
 

It’s also interesting to see the spread of years being modelled with a lot concentrating on the 20’s and 30’s. (In total 86 modellers for these decades.)

 

I would say that there is a clear demand for a manufacturer to release a new R-T-R Pannier tank loco. Here’s hoping which ever company decides to produce one is able to incorporate my suggested specifications:

 

• Pre-WW2 design of loco.
• Top-feed as appropriate for the livery era. (Topfeed was introduced around 1942), however, some locos were seen with BR livery and no topfeed.
• Plenty of weight (die cast chassis);
• NEM couplers is a given.
• Provision for sound / stay-alive. (Included as standard, or the space for them)
• Good quality motor. (Questions remain over 3 pole vs 5 pole)
• Detail variations as appropriate.
• Full backhead details / fully detailed cab.

 

In many respects top feed is irrelevant provided there is an option of no top feed.  Don't forget that boiler changes took place and there is, for example clear photographic evidence (e,g 4630) that 8750s outshopped with boilers fitted with top feed could later be seen running with boilers with original feed arrangements.

 

Incidentally although they were a numerically small class and originally very limited in geographical distribution it would have been nice to see 54XX in the list.

[Neal Ball]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

In many respects top feed is irrelevant provided there is an option of no top feed.  Don't forget that boiler changes took place and there is, for example clear photographic evidence (e,g 4630) that 8750s outshopped with boilers fitted with top feed could later be seen running with boilers with original feed arrangements.

 

Incidentally although they were a numerically small class and originally very limited in geographical distribution it would have been nice to see 54XX in the list.

 

Thanks very much Mike,

 

So what you are saying is that a 8750 loco started life with no top feed; had it added at some point after 1942 and then later had it removed. I wonder what the thinking behind that was.

 

Re: 54xx 

When I started the research into the Panniers I decided almost straight away to lump all the post 1928 Collett Panniers  together - rightly our wrongly!

 

I spent ages going through all of the modern Panniers, taking down details off the wheel sizes, wheelbase etc. Trawling through Pannier Papers and a couple of my other books to get a measure of the detail differences. 

 

It was time well spent as I then moved onto the Pre-WW1 locos and the majority of that research came from the site gwr.org.uk 

 

I compared what I was trying to achieve on the Toplight poll, which 5 years down the line looks a bit of a mess and I don't think is as concise as it could have been. Hence why all the Collett ones are together. The only exception was the 64xx with the question being for a no topfeed loco as I thought there might have been a call for the loco in as built condition. Clearly the answer to that was no.

 

Thanks again for your comments.