Poll: GWR Pannier Tanks; time for a modern spec OO loco.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said:

A question formed in my mind.  Did the tanks last the full 25+ year life of the riveted engines? If replacement tanks were required were they welded?  Did the number of riveted tanks decline over time?  Is there an example of a loco carrying one riveted and one welded?

 

Oakhill

There are certainly pictures of tank engines of various types with patch repairs to the tanks.

I would suppose those in soft water areas would corrode first (soft water is corrosive due to its acidity compared with hard water which produces lime scaling.)

[Siberian Snooper]

I would argue the point, with regards soft water being corrosive, in Plymouth which is definitely a soft water area, was one of the few places in the world that tap water could be used in naval boilers without any treatment, until Southwest water started putting additives in it during the late 70's. 

 

When SW Water started replacing old pipework with the new plastic stuff, the insides of the pipework were remarkably clean, the exterior though was pitted to hell.

 

[melmerby]

20 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I would argue the point, with regards soft water being corrosive, in Plymouth which is definitely a soft water area, was one of the few places in the world that tap water could be used in naval boilers without any treatment, until Southwest water started putting additives in it during the late 70's. 

 

When SW Water started replacing old pipework with the new plastic stuff, the insides of the pipework were remarkably clean, the exterior though was pitted to hell.

 

It's definitely corrosive, there's plenty of evidence for that, just check online.

If Plymouth water doesn't corrode metals it isn't soft. It may just be neutral.

 

The pH of Birmingham water (less than 7) put it in the acidic end of the table. (The soil around here is also acidic!)

In areas where there were lead pipes the lead is slowly dissolved into the water meaning people's intake of lead is higher than those in hard water areas where the inside of the pipe gets lime scale.

 

Although not in Birmingham, we get Birmingham water.

It is not as soft as it used to be due to dilution from other not so soft sources but still corrodes kettle elements etc.

 

[Siberian Snooper]

Must be neutral then, as my kettle element is almost as good as the day I bought it, over thirty years ago. Our water comes from Dartmoor, which is mostly peat covered.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

22 hours ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said:

Did the tanks last the full 25+ year life of the riveted engines? If replacement tanks were required were they welded?  Did the number of riveted tanks decline over time?

 

I think it is almost inevitable that some tank swapping took place, but style change was probably rare. I'll dig out a pic. A complicating factor is that some (a few?) riveted tanks were I think given some welding treatment, and the rivet heads ground off, to make the tanks look like they were of the flush type.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Miss Prism

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Must be neutral then, as my kettle element is almost as good as the day I bought it, over thirty years ago. Our water comes from Dartmoor, which is mostly peat covered.

 

It'll be on the acidic side of neutral.  

[The Johnster]

I would expect Birmingham water to be a little acidic, as it is runoff from the peat bogs feeding the Elan Valley and Claerwen reservoirs in Mid Wales.  The geology there is Silurian era shales and mudstones, which do not affect the water much but the mountain peat bogs do.

 

Furring of kettles and such from hard water is a feature of areas where the water source is on limestone or chalk rock, which dissolves into the ground water and leaches out in domestic or industrial use.  London's water, supplied from the artesian table in the chalk Chilterns, is like this.  I have to smile at the persistent advertising of Calgon, a water softener to combat this, in areas like South Wales where the water comes from the sandstone of the Brecon Beacons, and is pretty soft.  Our kettles do not fur.

[MrWolf]

IIRC the Great Western built a number of water softening plants in areas of operations which had hard water, but a number seemed to be abandoned long before the end of steam traction.

[Neal Ball]

I have now sent details of the poll out to a group of manufacturers and hope they find it of interest..... Hopefully I hear something of interest and someone says "don't worry we are about to announce a new loco" but realistically its likely to be shrouded in Commercialty and they wont let on until they have an EP to show.

 

There are lots of ways of interpreting the poll, but what I have taken from it is that there is a clear demand for a new GWR Pannier tank loco. (For me, that means a 1930's era Pannier tank with no top-feed.)

 

I hope you find the analysis interesting... and more importantly that we can get a new (to 2022 standards) Pannier Tank 0-6-0 produced soon....

 

RMWeb Pannier poll results.docx

[checkrail]

Good work Neal.

[JimC]

On 12/02/2022 at 05:56, Craigw said:

Even now a new feature would not be retrofitted unless there is a safety imperative.

Perhaps overstated for the GWR. If there was a significant operational or maintenance advantage then they would most definitely retrofit. Perhaps the most obvious example is the rate at which Churchward had superheaters fitted to the existing fleet. I believe that by WW1 the GWR had more superheated locomotives than all the other lines in Britain combined. And fitting superheaters is not a minor change as the whole tube layout is different with the flue tubes. Presumably with top feed the advantages weren't so marked on the small tank engines as it was on the taper boilers where it seems to have been retrofitted quite swiftly.

 

On 11/02/2022 at 09:49, Compound2632 said:

As built by the Société Alsacienne but those were of course not Great Western boilers.

I don't believe the Frenchmen had top feed. I think you'll find the arrangement that looks superficially like top feed is in fact external steam pipes. 

 

On 11/02/2022 at 22:47, Neal Ball said:

It was a standard, but not what we would call standard today. 

I think it depends on your background. The key point to the GWR seems to have been interchangeability. They certainly didn't let standardisation preclude necessary improvements: indeed you could make a case that continuous improovement - to some extent anyway - was GWR policy. An example is in tenders, where one can see a mix and match approach where later design parts would certainly be installed if necessary/desirable. With boilers its important to be aware that there were sub classes, and with the most numerous types there were quite a number which weren't strictly interchangeable with different fittings for tank and tender engines and the like. I don't think, for example, that 2721s ever carried the 200psi boilers with two flue tubes used on 57xx. The number of P class boilers was large enough that they didn't need to be pooled between the pre group and Collett classes with P class boilers

Edited March 9, 2022 by JimC

[JimC]

Oh yes. if you want to get an idea of the variety of subclasses of boilers take a look at the end of my GW standard boilers web page here: https://www.devboats.co.uk/gwdrawings/gwrstandardboilers.php#prefix I was lucky enough to have sight of a couple of GWR documents which listed boiler prefixes - as the GWR called the two letter code - and combined the information and published it there. Its not a complete list, because some types were extinct by the time of the documents.

[Steamport Southport]

Interesting that in the Hornby TT announcement there is a 57XX Pannier Tank.

 

Everything in the range is a smaller version of an existing 00 gauge model. I wonder.....

 

https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/7016/6513/9759/2022_Hornby_TT_Brochure_32pp_AW_ANALOGUE_WEB_OUTPUT_04_10_22_V2.pdf

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Everything in the range is a smaller version of an existing 00 gauge model. I wonder.....

 

Quite so. To my mind, that means it's almost certain Hornby has been working on a 4mm version.

 

[woodenhead]

Well at least there is no brown on a Pannier tank for Hornby to turn green....

 

Not sure how I feel about Hornby attempting a high standard Pannier, I have two, I don't need any more.

[melmerby]

On 15/02/2022 at 14:27, 6892 Oakhill Grange said:

A question formed in my mind.  Did the tanks last the full 25+ year life of the riveted engines? If replacement tanks were required were they welded?  Did the number of riveted tanks decline over time?  Is there an example of a loco carrying one riveted and one welded?

 

Oakhill

Loco tanks were certainly repaired if possible as I posted a picture on RMWeb of a different class with patched tank.

I assume that probably applied to panniers as well

Edited October 10, 2022 by melmerby

[Steamport Southport]

50 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Well at least there is no brown on a Pannier tank for Hornby to turn green....

 

Not sure how I feel about Hornby attempting a high standard Pannier, I have two, I don't need any more.

 

I'm sure you said that in the other thread.

 

 I can assure you the Hornby coaches AREN'T green. Photos online are a bit light due to lighting conditions, but this is chocolate and cream.

 

Go and look at one in real life....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Neal Ball]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Interesting that in the Hornby TT announcement there is a 57XX Pannier Tank.

 

Everything in the range is a smaller version of an existing 00 gauge model. I wonder.....

 

https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/7016/6513/9759/2022_Hornby_TT_Brochure_32pp_AW_ANALOGUE_WEB_OUTPUT_04_10_22_V2.pdf

 

 

Jason

Thanks Jason, interesting as I hadn’t seen that earlier.

 

Off topic, but I can’t help wondering what the significance is of the TT announcement today.

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Quite so. To my mind, that means it's almost certain Hornby has been working on a 4mm version.

 

Presumably Yes!

 

I wonder when “phase 4” is? Strange as Hornby normally talk about calendar quarters… 

 

It will be interesting if Hornby do bring out a 4mm Pannier loco…. Let’s hope it has all the bells and whistles….. 

 

Maybe the January 2023 announcement will be interesting after all, although it’s a bit early for wishlisting!

[NHY 581]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Interesting that in the Hornby TT announcement there is a 57XX Pannier Tank.

 

Everything in the range is a smaller version of an existing 00 gauge model. I wonder.....

 

https://d63oxfkn1m8sf.cloudfront.net/7016/6513/9759/2022_Hornby_TT_Brochure_32pp_AW_ANALOGUE_WEB_OUTPUT_04_10_22_V2.pdf

 

 

Jason

 

 

Um.......have I missed something ? I'm not seeing a 57xx in the lists Hornby have published. 

 

 

Edit......I should have read the small......er....print..........

 

I'm really not sure about TT. Hornby haven't cleared the backlog of new releases yet..

 

And........if I had a choice, it wouldn't be Hornby producing a new Pannier........

 

Rob

Edited October 10, 2022 by NHY 581

[57xx]

3 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

I wonder when “phase 4” is? Strange as Hornby normally talk about calendar quarters… 

 

It will be interesting if Hornby do bring out a 4mm Pannier loco…. Let’s hope it has all the bells and whistles….. 

 

Whistles, yes, but no bells or top feeds please.

[57xx]

2 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

And........if I had a choice, it wouldn't be Hornby producing a new Pannier........

 

Actually I retract my last remark. Agreeing with this, Hornby can add the top feed and leave the market open for another player to introduce a proper hi-fi no top feed version.

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

Um.......have I missed something ? I'm not seeing a 57xx in the lists Hornby have published. 

 

 

Edit......I should have read the small......er....print..........

 

I'm really not sure about TT. Hornby haven't cleared the backlog of new releases yet..

 

And........if I had a choice, it wouldn't be Hornby producing a new Pannier........

 

Rob

Yes it was in the very small print…. I later watched the first bit of the Hornby video, where Simon makes a comment that remaining 00 models would still have the bells and whistles. 🥳

 

58 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Whistles, yes, but no bells or top feeds please.

Agreed 😎

 

14 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Actually I retract my last remark. Agreeing with this, Hornby can add the top feed and leave the market open for another player to introduce a proper hi-fi no top feed version.

Hopefully if Hornby are going to produce a new 57xx… then hopefully someone else will be doing an earlier iteration to add variety. 😎

[The Stationmaster]

On 10/10/2022 at 16:02, melmerby said:

Loco tanks were certainly repaired if possible as I posted a picture on RMWeb of a different class with patched tank.

I assume that probably applied to panniers as well

Having many years ago (obviously) seen a pannier's tank off the engine and with water steadily pi flowing out of it as it was lifted clear of the ground by the factory (Western term) gantry crane it would seem conclusive that such tanks could develop leaks and that they were repaired at suitably equipped depots.  However it was a tank off a condensing 'tunnel motor' and it was leaking from the side tank part.

[Miss Prism]

New seam repairs on pannier tanks

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/e3b1e1851
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/ee2f0ec96
 

[Neal Ball]

46 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

New seam repairs on pannier tanks

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/e3b1e1851
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/ee2f0ec96
 

Very noticeable that they have had seams put in….. I wonder what the tanks were like before the repair.