Poll: GWR Pannier Tanks; time for a modern spec OO loco.

[Neal Ball]

There has been a call for a modern Great Western Pannier tank loco in 00 for quite some time now. Sadly during the 2022 announcements from both Hornby and Bachmann, nothing materialised.

 

 

Loco 3650 at the GWS Didcot, sporting 1930's Shirtbutton livery, but with a Topfeed. 

 

The 57xx has been in the Bachmann catalogue for a number of years and can trace it's lineage back to the Mainline days in 1981 (Although there have been some upgrades over the years). Similarly the 27xx loco from Hornby traces it's history back a number of years. (Google suggests it was first produced in 1999). None are currently in the respective catalogues and none cover my suggested requirements below.

 

In putting together the poll, I have compiled a specification list. It's not definitive, just a starter and there will no doubt be elements that may not appeal to every modeller, but these are my initial thoughts.

 

• Pre-WW2 design of loco.
• Top-feed as appropriate for the livery era. (Topfeed was introduced around 1942), however, some locos were seen with BR livery and no topfeed.
• Plenty of weight (die cast chassis);
• NEM couplers is a given.
• Provision for sound / stay-alive. (Included as standard, or the space for them)
• Good quality motor. (Questions remain over 3 pole vs 5 pole)
• Detail variations as appropriate.
• Full backhead details / fully detailed cab.

 

A few "nice to have" items might include:

• Illuminated lamps (The soon to be released Toplight carriages from Dapol have a tail lamp on the Brake 3rd), although this might not be as easy on a loco. 
• Firebox flicker
• Fire irons included; (Shovel; Pricker x2; bucket; Pep pipe)

 

The loco choices:

• 57xx the modern Collet loco, built in huge quantities by Swindon as well as examples from outside contractors. These were built from 1928 and withdrawn in the 1960's at the end of steam. Generally spread across the system. Sub classes included the 37xx; 67xx; 77xx; 87xx all included detail differences.
• 64xx built from 1932 and is currently produced by Bachmann with a TopFeed, which is not appropriate for early liveried locos.
• 9700 to 9710 (Similar in every respect to a 57xx) built from 1933; all were based at Old Oak Common and fitted with condensing equipment.
• 1366 Outside cylinder locos built from 1934. A version was produced by Heljan, although there were allegedly some reliability issues.
• 2721 class - open cab loco built from 1897. This loco was produced by Hornby, but does not fulfil the modern standards and finesse that I am suggesting. All survived WW2, but were withdrawn around 1948/1950.
• 1854 class - built 1890 to 1895 with the final ones being withdrawn in 1951 - open cab locos.
• 1901 class - built 1881 to 1897 with 164 locos being built. 43 survived into the 1950's and were scrapped by BR. Originally built as Saddle tanks
• 2021/2101 class - Built at Wolverhampton from 1897 with open cabs and saddle tanks. Pannier tanks were added, as were enclosed cabs, but some reverted to Saddle tanks. Withdrawls started in the 1930's but others survived into the 1940's and 1950's.

 

I have excluded the following classes of locos as they fall outside the pre-WW2 remit and new versions are currently being offered by Bachmann or Rapido..

• 94xx - Bachmann - built from 1947
• 15xx - Rapido - built from 1949
• 16xx - Rapido - built from 1949

 

I have also excluded locos that didn't make it into the BR period, on the basis that any 00 manufacturer will want to offer a good range of liveries.

 

Route availability: You may or may not be concerned about this, but the RA changed over the years.

A 57xx until the 1950's was coloured Blue, which may have precluded it from some branch lines. Interestingly the 2021/2101 class was uncoloured, meaning it could go anywhere.

 

Further reading: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html plus the pannier papers books.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Neal Ball
photo changed

[Miss Prism]

Edited October 13, 2022 by Miss Prism
image reinstated

[Harlequin]

Hi @Neal Ball,

 

I notice that you haven't included the 2021/2101 class, which seemed to be quite popular in the "Is the time right...?" thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/169519-is-the-time-right-for-a-new-pannier-if-you-think-so-please-add-your-support-and-ideas-to-this-thread/

 

Edit: See Miss P's beautiful photo above!

 

If you add it in I'll vote for it! Or are you including them in the 1901 class???

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Harlequin

[Neal Ball]

1 minute ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Lovely photo, thank you.

[Neal Ball]

16 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hi @Neal Ball,

 

I notice that you haven't included the 2021/2101 class, which seemed to be quite popular in the "Is the time right...?" thread: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/169519-is-the-time-right-for-a-new-pannier-if-you-think-so-please-add-your-support-and-ideas-to-this-thread/

 

Edit: See Miss P's beautiful photo above!

 

If you add it in I'll vote for it! Or are you including them in the 1901 class???

 

 

Done!

 

Although reading the details on GWR.org.uk it sounds as if there might be many variations at any one time - which of course could make for some variety on a layout.

 

I like this photo - plenty of character! 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Neal Ball
photo added

[The Fatadder]

Would definitely be in the market for one or two more panniers to a decent standard, a 57xx (preferably one of the later build with the large windows) and a 2721 are both on the future build list.  Would be very interested to see what Accurascale could do with it....     I currently have a 74xx modified from a Bachmann 64xx (surprising Bachmann didnt tool for a 74xx when they did the 64xx) and a detailed 57xx (which I would happily replace with a better model).  

[TrevorP1]

Panniers are not high on my priority list at the moment because I have three and I'm happy with them. OK, two are the Bachmann 57XX and 8750 types but I cannot justify replacing them just because a new one comes out. I'm lacking a 16XX but somehow I don't feel the need to purchase the Rapido version - I'm hoping to find the time to build a Nucast kit version one day.

 

However, I've voted for the 2021 as there were a few in Cornwall until the very early 1950s - also some saddle tanks I believe. (That would be interesting).  It's a bit early for me but I would support the model - I could even use it on the fictitious china clay branch workman's train with a short set of the Dapol Mainline & City stoplights....

[Neal Ball]

30 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

Would definitely be in the market for one or two more panniers to a decent standard, a 57xx (preferably one of the later build with the large windows) and a 2721 are both on the future build list.  Would be very interested to see what Accurascale could do with it....     I currently have a 74xx modified from a Bachmann 64xx (surprising Bachmann didnt tool for a 74xx when they did the 64xx) and a detailed 57xx (which I would happily replace with a better model).  

 

Thanks for that Rich.

 

I also think that Accurascale would make a very good Pannier tank.... I was going to send details out of the Poll further down the line when we might have a few more numbers.... but I'll include @McC and @Accurascale Fran at this stage in case they would like to see it develop. :-)

[MrWolf]

I voted for the final four on the list and am particularly interested in the idea of a 2021, something that as far as I know hasn't been offered in RTR form and would work in a good variety of liveries and build conditions.

Like @TrevorP1I have several of the Bachmann 57XX /8750 and would be less inclined to replace them simply because a new version had been released. I suspect that would only work for those who are purely collectors or who don't have a pannier as yet.

[Compound2632]

I would very much like 1854 (built 1890-95 not 1854 as listed above, presumably a typo), 1901 (built 1881-1895 not 1874 ditto but see 850 class), 2021, or 2721 class but as built as saddle tanks. Could that be an option in the poll? After all, an enterprising manufacturer tooling up for variants of one of these classes ought to be able to include the saddle tank option.

 

I wouldn't say no to an 850 class (which does go back to 1874) or any of the outside-framed classes!

[Neal Ball]

44 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I voted for the final four on the list and am particularly interested in the idea of a 2021, something that as far as I know hasn't been offered in RTR form and would work in a good variety of liveries and build conditions.

Like @TrevorP1I have several of the Bachmann 57XX /8750 and would be less inclined to replace them simply because a new version had been released. I suspect that would only work for those who are purely collectors or who don't have a pannier as yet.

 

Thanks for that. I suspect there are a number of people who would willingly PX their old Bachmann 57xx for a new version... for any number of reasons. One of mine is getting a bit "long in the tooth" and if Accurascale (Other manufacturers are available) where to bring one out... I would immediately snap up at least two sound fitted!

 

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I would very much like 1854 (built 1890-95 not 1854 as listed above, presumably a typo), 1901 (built 1881-1895 not 1874 ditto but see 850 class), 2021, or 2721 class but as built as saddle tanks. Could that be an option in the poll? After all, an enterprising manufacturer tooling up for variants of one of these classes ought to be able to include the saddle tank option.

 

I wouldn't say no to an 850 class (which does go back to 1874) or any of the outside-framed classes!

 

Thanks very much for this and apologies for the typos, the hazards of having multiple windows open I guess. :-(

 

As I was pulling together the original details I thought quite a while about including Saddle tanks as an option. But decided against as I thought it might take the emphasis away from getting new Pannier tanks. Effectively diluting the argument.

 

Additionally of course looking across gwr.org.uk it was apparent that a good  number of 0-6-0ST were withdrawn before the chosen time period of the 1930's. Whilst still attractive models, there were not many that made it into BR days. So with my commercial hat on I decided against including them. Should a manufacturer decide to include them as a separate batch in R-T-R as well as the Pannier versions, then clearly thats a win-win.

 

Hope you follow my logic.

 

Many thanks, Neal.

 

 

[Brassey]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I would very much like 1854 (built 1890-95 not 1854 as listed above, presumably a typo), 1901 (built 1881-1895 not 1874 ditto but see 850 class), 2021, or 2721 class but as built as saddle tanks. Could that be an option in the poll? After all, an enterprising manufacturer tooling up for variants of one of these classes ought to be able to include the saddle tank option.

 

I wouldn't say no to an 850 class (which does go back to 1874) or any of the outside-framed classes!

I’ve built an 1501/1854 from a Wills Saddle Tank and Martin Finney 1854 chassis. I also have Gibson 850 and Buffalo saddle tanks in the to do pile. 

[NHY 581]

Hi Neal,

 

I may have missed this but will the 57xx encompass the 8750 or is this excluded for now ? 

 

Rob. 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

and a detailed 57xx (which I would happily replace with a better model)

 

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

 

Bachmann 57XX /8750 and would be less inclined to replace them simply because a new version had been released

I have to say that I am generally happy with the 57XX and 8750 panniers (all detailed Bachmann and Mainline) that I have and I wouldn't see a new release as an opportunity to replace them.

 

Rather, as I like panniers so much, I would choose to supplement their numbers, because you can never have too many panniers.

 

On the other hand, I really like the thought of a new RTR older pannier, one that made it through to nationalisation. Such machines could also be marketed in NCB livery, as some did end up in this role (it always surprises me that one or two such examples, that were still in evidence in the 1960s, were not preserved).

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

3 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

I have excluded the following classes of locos as they fall outside the pre-WW2 remit and new versions are currently being offered by Rapido..

• 16xx - Rapido - built from 1949

To be honest, despite owning one of the Rapido 16XXs, if another manufacturer were to produce one to the same (excellent) bodywork standard, but where you could simply remove the chassis from the body by unscrewing two screws, I would definitely buy one for conversion to P4 (either by wheel substitution or - more probably - building the lovely NuCast Partners etched chassis, designed by Justin Newitt).

 

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

As I was pulling together the original details I thought quite a while about including Saddle tanks as an option. But decided against as I thought it might take the emphasis away from getting new Pannier tanks. Effectively diluting the argument.

 

Additionally of course looking across gwr.org.uk it was apparent that a good  number of 0-6-0ST were withdrawn before the chosen time period of the 1930's. Whilst still attractive models, there were not many that made it into BR days. So with my commercial hat on I decided against including them. Should a manufacturer decide to include them as a separate batch in R-T-R as well as the Pannier versions, then clearly thats a win-win.

 

Hope you follow my logic.

 

I follow, but disagree with, your logic, which appears to me to be founded on the limiting assumptions that (a) survival to the 1950s is necessary for a model to be commercially viable and (b) the 1930s are the normative period for Great Western modellers. There is plenty of evidence that an attractive model of an attractive pre-Great War prototype will sell, even without a drab 1950s version alongside it, whilst the very best Great Western layouts on the exhibition circuit presently are set in the Edwardian period.

 

I'd like to see my notional "enterprising manufacturer" think outside the box and announce a GWR 0-6-0ST with a PT version as an afterthought!

 

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

I also think that Accurascale would make a very good Pannier tank

When you consider the quality of the forthcoming Manor, Accurascale can be the only viable manufacturer for a project such as this, as far as I am concerned. Just imagine how superb a 57XX and 8750 would be in their hands.

 

And unless there is a change of heart on their 'the chassis is an integral part of the body, so you can't separate the two' philosophy, definitely not Rapido. Sorry.

 

[Neal Ball]

29 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

Hi Neal,

 

I may have missed this but will the 57xx encompass the 8750 or is this excluded for now ? 

 

Rob. 

 

I would suggest it would cover all of the sub classes, including the 8750

[Neal Ball]

24 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

.....because you can never have too many panniers.....

 

 

Definitely agree.

 

14 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

When you consider the quality of the forthcoming Manor, Accurascale can be the only viable manufacturer for a project such as this, as far as I am concerned. Just imagine how superb a 57XX and 8750 would be in their hands.

 

And unless there is a change of heart on their 'the chassis is an integral part of the body, so you can't separate the two' philosophy, definitely not Rapido. Sorry.

 

 

Re: The Manor, I am certainly looking forward to seeing it running at Henley on Thames (I have a sound fitted one on pre-order). From everything that has been posted Accurascale are setting the bench very high. Any Pannier tank from them is bound to be good.

 

Re: "Chassis integral" I have no experience of this, but thank you.

[88D]

It would be really good for the manufacturers to make these locos easily EM-able without stretching the price. Reckon it would be tough to stretch this wish for P4 modellers, but EM should be managable.

[Schooner]

55 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

So with my commercial hat on...

 

...I'd look for a chassis that could be used for multiple releases aimed at different markets over a period of years. The smallest, longest serving and most widespread (not the most numerous), to cover the maximum number of layouts it could be bought for.

 

It's not on the list, but to the best of my (extremely limited) knowledge that'd be the 850-1901? Seen all over the GWR/WR network, in service for over 80 years (1874-1958 IIUC). 

 

From high-Victorian, properly Wolverhampton* round-topped cab-less ST:

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Trains/gwr/loco7.jpg

*inc. Wolverhampton Green livery

 

to fully Swindonised Belpaire-and-pannier, enclosed cab and Collett bunker in 50's grime:

 

Only a couple of the 40-odd, but saddle tanks did make it to Nationalisation - perhaps enough to justify doing them in black, so each type could have the full suite of livery options. At the other end of the spectrum, there may well be a market for the next couple of years for a small 'generic' pre-Grouping tank to go with Hatton's 4- and 6-wheel coaches, and the little pre-Grouping layouts they've already started to spawn. The pannier tanks are decidedly Western, but with saddles it'd look well in Caley blue, or LNWR drop black...

 

I appreciate the different body styles are almost as much work as starting each from scratch, but being able to re-use the chassis must be a win and there must be gains in being able to duplicate research time, or backhead detail etc.

 

Really pushing things, given how many people inexplicably forked out for a 45T crane or a thumping great railgun and seem to crave novelty over prototype-literacy, I bet there'd be a viable market for:

 

..also, I want one

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

When you consider the quality of the forthcoming Manor, Accurascale can be the only viable manufacturer for a project such as this, as far as I am concerned. Just imagine how superb a 57XX and 8750 would be in their hands.

 

And unless there is a change of heart on their 'the chassis is an integral part of the body, so you can't separate the two' philosophy, definitely not Rapido. Sorry.

 

 

For balance, Accurascale would also make a superb job of any of the other pannier tank classes in the poll, of course...

 

[Miss Prism]

Manufacturers don't like doing things that aren't scannable.

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

I'm pretty happy with the Bachmann Panniers I have but would like a 74xx — hopefully Bachmann are thinking about one…

I'd go for a new model if offered in a DCC-sound version with, preferably, a stay-alive; I've been disappointed with the Hornby DCC-fitted "Terriers" (though non-sound) I have; the Dapol one is OK, but "could do better"…

[McC]

12 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Manufacturers don't like doing things that aren't scannable.

 

 

We've made lots of things that are now razor blades, with enough data, anything can be made...