Poll: GWR Pannier Tanks; time for a modern spec OO loco.

[philip-griffiths]

On 28/11/2023 at 06:18, Miss Prism said:

More modern bashings at Llantrisant

Thanks “Miss Prism”.  Was not aware of that website. Hope you are well. 

[Schooner]

It's a bold bloke who goes up against Miss P, and my bravery pants are currently in the wash, but...

 

...I'm not seeing anything like that arrangement of sheds, platform and terraced housing on the 25" maps (1878, 1906, 1933).

 

It's not the original station train shed (although obvs by 1907 the station had been goods only for a fair while already), nor the original goods shed, and although I've not found a useful photo of it I'm don't think it's the later shed* on the kickback spur either.

 

Other options?

 

*Initially for engines, but soon converted to a timber shed IIRC?

[Fair Oak Junction]

Out of interest, do any of the parts manufacturers make the type of chimney the 850s originally had in 4mm?

Edited December 17, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction

[Miss Prism]

33 minutes ago, Schooner said:

...I'm not seeing anything like that arrangement of sheds, platform and terraced housing on the 25" maps (1878, 1906, 1933).

 

Oh, I think you are right, there should be a huge river in that pic of mine but there isn't.

 

Must admit I didn't check it, although I did have my doubts, but I can't find the original photo, so can't check the notation on the back. It's not the first time the photo sellers have dropped a goolie. Got to say also, the '1907' date seems a little bit late to me.

 

I think it shows the value of community comment. (I've done couple of mods to the previous posts.)

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Miss Prism

[Coach bogie]

18 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Out of interest, do any of the parts manufacturers make the type of chimney the 850s originally had in 4mm?

Alan Gibson as supplied with ex M/L kit.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Fair Oak Junction]

15 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

Alan Gibson as supplied with ex M/L kit.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

You know I looked through the list the other day, and for some reason my eyes didn't even pick it up! 😄

I've spotted it now, thanks 👍

[Miss Prism]

I never knew AG did the tall chimney.

[Fair Oak Junction]

I assume that this is the right type:

 

[Miss Prism]

I've obviously forgotten more than I should remember!

 

[Fair Oak Junction]

I've had a conversation with Colin at Alan Gibson and he confirmed that chimney on the parts list is actually the medium chimney that the kit comes with, rather than the tall early one.

Hope that helps.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction

[Steamport Southport]

Any of these suitable?

 

https://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_castings.htm

 

I'm afraid I'm not that well up on early GWR chimneys!

 

 

 

Jason

[JimC]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm afraid I'm not that well up on early GWR chimneys!

They're a minefield. Not least the Swindon versus Wolverhampton thing, where a Wolverhampton built locomotive might go into Swindon works with a Wolverhampton profile one and come out with a Swindon style one.

[Fair Oak Junction]

I'm wondering if the Alan Gibson 517/633 chimney might work as the taller early chimney on the 850. I may well order one in the new year to see if it is.

[The Stationmaster]

On 17/12/2023 at 15:00, Miss Prism said:

 

Oh, I think you are right, there should be a huge river in that pic of mine but there isn't.

 

Must admit I didn't check it, although I did have my doubts, but I can't find the original photo, so can't check the notation on the back. It's not the first time the photo sellers have dropped a goolie. Got to say also, the '1907' date seems a little bit late to me.

 

I think it shows the value of community comment. (I've done couple of mods to the previous posts.)

 

The background is all wrong for Newham and there also appears to be a platform edge visible at the right hand end of the picture.  So in my opinion it is not Newham.  The next stage of course is to try and identify where it is - which is a bit harder than saying where it isn't.

[Miss Prism]

On 16/12/2023 at 19:34, Miss Prism said:

 

Plymouth North Road, I think.

 

[Compound2632]

On 16/12/2023 at 19:34, Miss Prism said:

Quite the best thing about the pic is that it will please the 'red Minks' school.

 

Sure does. How secure is the 1907 date? The LH G.W.R on the mink indicates that it was last repainted no later than c. 1893 and perhaps not at all since building in 1886?

 

I also have a livery question. The engine appears to be unlined and without any indication of ownership. I'm assuming what we see here are black valences and wheels. What was the convention on painting the saddle tank at this date or earlier? It seems to me, but it may well be an illusion, that the front part of the tank, where it straddles the smokebox, may be a darker hue than the rest - green rather than black. But I'm probably raving.

[Mikkel]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

black valences and wheels

 

If so, that would, make it 1906 onwards.

 

We just can't tell. Comparing shades in these photos doesn't work, in my view. See the latest issue of the LB&SCR Digest for examples. From my point of view, the van could also easily be grey.

 

Edit: The switch from left hand to right hand G.W.R. was in 1894 IIRC, so that helps dating it. But not the photo's shades of grey, in my view.

 

Edited February 9 by Mikkel

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

How secure is the 1907 date?

 

It isn't. The only significant feature giving a date indication is the chimney height, and those tall chimneys continued on the 850/1901 class for quite a while. Here is 1974, in very good nick, in what is thought to be 1909 - it could be ex-works in May of that year when it got an R4 boiler. Modern lamp irons.  It's in green top with a lined cab, no insignia (which is normal for a saddle tank) and black chassis.

 

 

So the 1907 date for the 2012 picture is plausible. 2012 looks a bit worn, has old style lamp sockets, and has a jack on the footplate. It's difficult to tell whether there is any lining on the cab. I suspect the difference in tone between the front segment of the tank and the rest is a result of an incomplete cleaning. It would have been previously painted some time before the picture date (even if that was accurate), and goods locos and lowly tanks had been receiving black frames since c 1902, so there's not much doubt in my mind about the frames and wheels being in black. 

 

 

 

[Mikkel]

Thanks Miss P. But does not the left-side "G.W.R." on 35015 suggest an earlier date - unless the van went quite a long time without a repaint? I see John Lewis said 1893 for the left-to-right-shift being standardized in the gwr.org.uk quote.

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Thanks Miss P. But does not the left-side "G.W.R." on 35015 suggest an earlier date - unless the van went quite a long time without a repaint? I see John Lewis said 1893 for the left-to-right-shift being standardized in the gwr.org.uk quote.

 

Might not have been repainted since building in 1886...

[Miss Prism]

All that is true or possible. The date could probably be anywhere between 1890 and 1915 (?).

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Might not have been repainted since building in 1886...

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

The date could probably be anywhere between 1890 and 1915 (?)

 

Good information to have for those of us that follow the left hand path.

 

Any clues as to what the script-like writing says on the second plank down from the top side edge on No.35015?

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Annie said:

Any clues as to what the script-like writing says on the second plank down from the top side edge on No.35015?

 

Might be:

 

Christmas

Postman

 

Any plausible destination that looks like that?

[Annie]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Might be:

 

Christmas

Postman

Fits with it being possibly red I suppose.  🤨

 

It's just with it being so high up on the side of the van and neatly written twice it didn't strike me as being a shunter's chalk mark.

[Coach bogie]

As Miss Prism points out It appears to still have the square cup holder blocks from the 1800's. I am not sure when they were phased out but 2900 Dean was built with the square sockets in 1902 but had the flat bracket, we all know by 1903 which appear to be standard on new builds from then.

 

Mike Wiltshire