Carlisle Citadel in Late Victorian Times

[Caley Jim]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Having seen the excellent OO model of York seen on other threads on this forum, .......

If it's this one to which you are referring, it's 2FS, not 00.

 

Jim

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

 

How did the buildings make the journey from Ukraine?

Quite complicated actually, they delivered the models personally to Cyprus by air, all extremely well packed in sections (the back wall outside platform 1 is 4m long.

They were then brought to the UK and taken to France by car. They have done most of the buildings for the layout now (others by Peter Leyland and Geoff Taylor), we were expecting the last delivery when the war started and we haven't heard from them (it's a husband and wife team) since July 2022.

[Citadel]

7 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

You might find these pdfs useful.

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much for this, really appreciate it.  The layout you and the team have had a major hand in building / co-ordinating is truly inspirational both in its scale and quality of modelling.  To have references such as this and the amazing 2mm finescale version of York is a bit daunting really - I'll just have to try my best..

 

I do a fair bit of cycling, not sure if you have ever come across a guy called Graham Obree.  He was a track cyclist at the same time as Chris Boardman but very much the establishment anti-hero - no Lotus carbon bikes, more something he'd made himself using parts from his wife's washing machine.  Towards the end of his career he couldn't really cope with loss of competitiveness and suffered from mental health issues and depression, actually trying to take his life on a couple of occasions.  He gave a talk in Dumfries and was asked why, when he had achieved everything he had in his career, he couldn't just sit back and enjoy it.  His response was that if he'd had that attitude he would have never achieved what he had in the first place and that his advice to us was that 'happiness has nothing to do with the situation you find yourself in, simply where it sits versus your expectations'.  For sure I'm trying to set my expectations at an appropriate level given my experience!

Edited December 11, 2023 by Citadel
Added missed ‘if’

[26power]

2 hours ago, Citadel said:

 

Thank you so much for this, really appreciate it.  The layout you and the team have had a major hand in building / co-ordinating is truly inspirational both in its scale and quality of modelling.  To have references such as this and the amazing 2mm finescale version of York is a bit daunting really - I'll just have to try my best..

 

I do a fair bit of cycling, not sure if you have ever come across a guy called Graham Obree.  He was a track cyclist at the same time as Chris Boardman but very much the establishment anti-hero - no Lotus carbon bikes, more something he'd made himself using parts from his wife's washing machine.  Towards the end of his career he couldn't really cope with loss of competitiveness and suffered from mental health issues and depression, actually trying to take his life on a couple of occasions.  He gave a talk in Dumfries and was asked why, when he had achieved everything he had in his career, he couldn't just sit back and enjoy it.  His response was that he'd had that attitude he would have never achieved what he had in the first place and that his advice to us was that 'happiness has nothing to do with the situation you find yourself in, simply where it sits versus your expectations'.  For sure I'm trying to set my expectations at an appropriate level given my experience!

Is there an “if” missing near the start of the penultimate sentence?  Should it start “His response was that if he’d had …..”?  

[Citadel]

18 minutes ago, 26power said:

Is there an “if” missing near the start of the penultimate sentence?  Should it start “His response was that if he’d had …..”?  

Aargh, well done for spotting the mistake - now corrected 🙂

[Michael Hodgson]

10 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

If it's this one to which you are referring, it's 2FS, not 00.

 

Jim

No, not that one (which I've yet to see) but the OO one

 

[Citadel]

Flipping heck, another incredible achievement.  Think my effort will have to be a little more modest....

 

Sitrep from my side is that went to wood merchant yesterday and bought the ply for the baseboards.  Birch ply is not really readily available at the moment due to the Russian sanctions and what there is commands incredibly inflated prices.  Ended up with a 5 layer Malaysian ply at c. £29 per full sheet at 6mm thickness.  Fortunately have an account (we self-built our house about 6 years ago) so trade prices and free delivery.  Checked it out before buying, looked to be good quality and free from voids etc., also good quality wood veneer in the central layers.  Am now going to shamelessly plunder the build techniques used by @Jol Wilkinson in his layout thread - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery....

 

Also bought baseboard dowels and track from the EM gauge Society (hope Mrs C doesn't look at the credit card bill).  I did think about building track work but have so much else on my plate so thought I'd go down the path of least resistance and use the EM flexitrac they offer.  To be honest the trackwork won't be a major feature of the layout as you are looking at it at a relatively shallow angle through the slot at the front and a lot of it his hidden behind the platforms - at the end of the day my main priority will be reliability of operation.  In terms of points added couple of the Peco ones to the basket to have a look at, also have a some of the British Finsescale kits that I bought a while ago and haven't touched yet - let's see....  If I go down this route the scissors crossings will obviously be an issue but may seek to simplify this aspect of the track layout slightly.  Any advice or experience with the EM gauge society track welcome, also what is recommended between the track and the baseboard - cork?

 

The photos I have (and the evidence given the number of holes in the stonework) suggests that there were numerous enamel advertising signs on the back wall of the station - had a bit of a play this evening in Adobe Lightroom and collected together some images.  Am sure a number of these postdate the layout somewhat but here my priority will be quirkiness and character.  Do need to try and find some related to Carlisle though, it's really just Carr's biscuits at the moment.  Is there any evidence that local traders advertised their hat shop (or whatever) in this way - or was it more the bigger brands?  There's a fascinating article on the National Archives about Victorian Advertising, this is giving me some ideas.

 

 

Robin Starch is definitely going to feature though, it's my favourite at the moment:

 

 

Finally when sorting through my photos last night revisited the one of the Pullman carriage and the roof - it's so distinctive and adds so much character, I definitely need to find a way to incorporate it.

 

 

Whilst waiting for the wood to arrive tomorrow will get stuck into the FR horsebox featured in the workshop thread.  Suffice to say it's putting up a bit of a fight....

Edited December 13, 2023 by Citadel

[CKPR]

I would recommend using cork sheet as the track bed as it's does the job well and is a natural material (and smells nice !).

[Citadel]

The wood has arrived and eager to start.  Discretion the better part of valour though - thought I'd cross reference my plan (scaled from OS maps) with the detailed layout drawing kindly shared by @Michael Edge.  Good job I did as think a few small errors on my part - easier to fix now rather than after I'd cut the plywood....

 

Meanwhile continued my odyssey into Victorian advertising.  These are not really enamel signs but think I can still adapt some of them - maybe in a wooden frame and pretend they are a poster.  The ones below came from the National Archive collection:

 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/selling-the-victorians/

 

 

Particularly like Bewley and Drapers Lemonade.  Not sure the guy is making much effort to sell his wares....

 

 

@apl31 was very helpful and introduced me to David Joys "Railways in lake counties"? There is a chapter on Carlisle with good photos including a nice one of NER bay with advertising boards. It's just a real shame that they always park an engine in the way before taking the photograph - obscures some of the really important details....

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Citadel

[Annie]

30 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Particularly like Bewley and Drapers Lemonade.  Not sure the guy is making much effort to sell his wares....

The poor lad looks like he's fallen asleep on his feet.

[Dave John]

I think advertising signage adds a lot to a period feel.  I looked at the detail in the signs, simpler ones might well be enamel and  the more complex ones printed and fitted on boards. 

 

The roof ironwork is wonderful at Carlisle. Not sure I would know how to model it though. 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Citadel said:

Particularly like Bewley and Drapers Lemonade.  Not sure the guy is making much effort to sell his wares....

 

 

Fumbling in his pocket to find the right change from half a crown for the bewhiskered gent in 1st Class.  The lower orders in adjacent compartments can wait their turn (in numerical order of class, naturally)

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Dave John said:

 

The roof ironwork is wonderful at Carlisle. Not sure I would know how to model it though. 

It could no doubt be soldered up from wire, but the difficulty would be to get all the trusses identical.  A jig would help, but still beyond me skills.   3D printing is the obvious solution if you have access to it.

[Citadel]

10 hours ago, Dave John said:

The roof ironwork is wonderful at Carlisle. Not sure I would know how to model it though. 

For sure it needs to be made in panels that can be easily lifted/removed for access, this tends to push me towards a brass or NS construction using soldered joints for rigidity and durability.  At least the interface between the roof and the wall is relatively straightforward.  The link below gave me hope - for sure some sort of jig will be required to ensure consistency of appearance

 

https://paternosterrow.blogspot.com/2021/09/a-duchess-at-carlisle.html

The hoops are made from ‘T’ section but yes, will probably substitute this with wire.  Etching probably too wasteful / expensive as the roof canstruction is really thin / spindly.  Can see how I can join/overlap the panels at the gutters mid way between the main support beams - was going to try and light from above the roof so don’t want an obvious gap.  Was going to represent the framing of the glass with scored lines on thin acrylic sheet and then fill with paint during the weathering process.  
 

Conscious that the original glass roof may have had  the visible framing at a 90 degree angle to the new plastic roof shown in the recent photos - need to check this:

 

Still need to have a think about how I introduce perspective.  Am a bit constrained as the main beams will need to be parallel from the back to the front of the layout - let’s see….

 

What could possibly go wrong!

Edited December 15, 2023 by Citadel

[Michael Edge]

I did consider doing just the framework for our model, mostly from wire soldered in a jig, but it would still be too big for one person to lift off and we really need access inside. For the moment we are ignoring it - and the outside canopies our model should have.

[Citadel]

On 13/12/2023 at 23:06, CKPR said:

I would recommend using cork sheet as the track bed as it's does the job well and is a natural material (and smells nice !).

Quick question, what thickness of cork sheet is recommended and any guidance about glues to use etc.  have read somewhere that PVA soaks into the voids and reduces the sound deadening properties once it dries.

 

Advert of the day 🙂 (again from the National Archive link above.  Not sure you could get away with this claim today…

 

[ChrisN]

9 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Quick question, what thickness of cork sheet is recommended and any guidance about glues to use etc.  have read somewhere that PVA soaks into the voids and reduces the sound deadening properties once it dries.

 

Advert of the day 🙂 (again from the National Archive link above.  Not sure you could get away with this claim today…

 

 

Love the adverts.  I will eventually need enamel ones.

 

My Nan, probably pre WW2, went to the doctors as she had boils come up.  He told her to drink stout.  She then drank a bottle of Mackeson every day for the rst of her life.  The boils went.  My dad said it was because there was iron in the stout, so who knows?

 

There was a time in hospitals that on the ordering list, I actually remember this, there was light ale, stout and sherry.

[Dave John]

I used 3mm cork. Add a mm of ballast or so on top gave me a ballast shoulder of about a scale foot above the cess with C+L thin plastic sleepers.  That seemed about right looking at period photos of Caley track.

 

[Michael Edge]

We use 3mm cork glued down with pva, the track is glued with No More Nails (ni Clous ni Vis en France), ballasting with dilute pva. We haven't actually got round to ballasting in the station yet, it's very difficult to get to and our layout is 5ft off the floor.

[CKPR]

I use Evostik to affix the cork down - I know it's a bit pricey but I've found that cheaper contact adhesives are even more unpleasant to use. For fixing the track down, I use 'school glue' PVA. The problems I'm having with the carriage siding on Mealsgate are entirely because I used Resin W for expediency, which is overkill and dries like a hard but slighty rubbery plastic that is very hard to remove from cork.

Edited December 16, 2023 by CKPR

[drduncan]

I recall from Ian Rice’ book on finescale track construction that he felt it was the combination of pva with real stone ballast that was the problem. He advocated using ground foam and wood ash, I think. There are also natural (often nut based) ballasts that may help avoid the pva/granite concrete. 
 

For glue I’m intending to use copydex  (rubber based) neat for track to track base and then diluted for the ballast - when I have summoned up the courage to stick down the track panels!

 

Duncan

[CKPR]

As in many cases, I would agree with IAR here. For the ballast on Mealsgate and my other M&CR layouts, I use Woodland Scenics 'fine cinders' , which I think is either walnut shell or actual cinders, to represent ash ballast supplemented by wood ash from our log burner. He did use PVA for trackwork construction but the much weaker "School Glue" variety.

[Citadel]

Many thanks for all the advice.  So definitely 3mm cork then.  Can see that a concreted PVA stone mix cascading over the edges of the cork and coming into contact with the baseboard will effectively negate the effect of having the sound deadening material beneath the track itself - will definitely bear this in mind.  Know this is an awfully naive question but do people ever lift and re-use track or adjust after laying, a lot of these glueing solutions sound awfully permanent.  Guess you have to be very confident that you haven't made any mistakes before committing...

 

Today's advert (again from the excellent https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/resources/selling-the-victorians/) features Abdy Marvelle.  Do need to try and find out exactly who's dog cakes are being promoted- maybe Abdy and his entourage might be preparing to board a train - first class of course...

 

 

Apart from putting up the Christmas decorations did spend some time drawing up the East wall and island buildings on the computer.  Will definitely need to think about how I do the gothic window/door surrounds - tempted to draw them up and get them 3D printed.  And those original linen fold doors from the 1880's, just fabulous:

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Citadel

[ChrisN]

Do people unstick and move track after it is laid?  Yes often.  This is the advantage of using PVA, as if you soften it with water, move the track and then pin it in the new position.  If you have not lifted it, just moved it when it dries it will stick again.  It is always worth not ballasting until you are completely happy with the track position and how it all runs, (says he who has not ballasted his layout yet).

[SteamAle]

I use French polish to hold my ballest in place. Does dry with a sheen though, but weathering can fix that. A drop of methylated spirit soon frees it up (good ventilation required and no smoking). I lifted all the track on the first Aspatria and only damaged a couple of pieces. I always found PVA difficult to lift but then at the time I was using quality rather than the very cheap and thin stuff that is avaiable nowadays.

At Workington MRE I actually had to move a couple of bits of track because the floor at the venue was so level compared to where I'd built the layout and it really showed. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by SteamAle