(No?) CIWL interest

[sncf231e]

The CIWL (Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits (et des Grands Express Européens)) was a Belgian company. In its heyday most of the luxury trans it ran, like Fleche d'Or (Golden Arrow), Night Ferry, Train Blue, Orient Express..., could only be run because of the English clientele. Without the English travellers visiting Europe I think the CIWL would not have survived long. 

I am a bit puzzled then why there seems to be not much interest in CIWL modelling in England. I cannot imagine that this only has to do with the OO/HO scale difference. 

Are there any good reasons I don't know?

Regards

Fred (interested in CIWL and models of CIWL)

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Fred

 

I can offer some data from (what was) The Annual 00 Wishlist Poll...

 

The CIWL stock (inc original Blue livery SR Guard's Van and SNCF Fourgon) was first listed in The Poll in 2013 and was Middle Polling that year.

 

However, since 2014, it has climbed up the ladder and has consistently been in the High Polling segment.

 

In 2019 (the last 'main Poll' to run) the stock was still High Polling and missed being in The Top 50 by just two votes!

 

Brian (on behalf of The 00 Poll Team)

[BernardTPM]

The 'Night Ferry' stock is the most obvious 4mm scale candidate.

Edited February 14, 2022 by BernardTPM

[Nearholmer]

I think the lack of broader interest is because the only CIWL train in Britain was the Night Ferry, and that only ran on a very particular set of routes. Even the NF wasn’t a very visible train, only the Up train in Summer really running in daylight.

 

There is a lot of interest in Pullman, because they provided cars in a great many trains - The Golden Arrow is recognised as a Pullman, rather than CIWL, train here, for instance, and many people have models of all or part of a typical Golden Arrow.

 

Modelling non-British railways is rather a minority sport here, but like all minority sports, it’s fans are passionate about it.

[Michael Hodgson]

As Nearholmer says. not modelled here because we never really saw it in this country.  I do remember seeing them but that was only after crossing the Channel into France, so it seemed to be a more colourful French train.  We did see them in period films / TV programmes, but these would typically have Agatha Christie type characters or similar plots - not the kind of train used by ordinary Brits.

 

There are a couple of preserved CIWL coaches on the Nene Valley Railway though.

 

If I were going to model it, it would be a continental model, so it would have ot be HO rather than OO in order to fit in with the other European rolling stock.

[Andy Hayter]

The comparison between the UK and Continental Europe has to be examined.

 

CIWL routes were really quite restricted to major inter-city and often trans-national lines.  This applies to the UK as well as the rest of Europe.

 

However regarding the UK, the routes were a tiny corner of the country - and as already said mainly in the hours of darkness.  [I do remember seeing CIWL stock in Victoria station awaiting either passengers to arrive or perhaps awaiting being shunted off for cleaning and refurbishment ready for the next service.]   

 

In contrast in Europe although limited, routes were often used with day trains as well as night.  Additionally the distances travelled meant that a train that set off as a night sleeper would be a day train before it arrived at its final destinations.  

 

CIWL stock was therefore much more visible in Europe as a whole than in the UK.  This then transfers to interest in modelling it.

 

In a similar vein, I have yet to see a UK "night soil" train modelled.  These trains ran on a daily basis but at night to transfer human waste from crowded city centres to agricultural areas where it would be used as fertiliser.  Much less glamorous than CIWL but under similar modelling constraints - not seen so not modelled.

[Michael Hodgson]

48 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

In a similar vein, I have yet to see a UK "night soil" train modelled.  These trains ran on a daily basis but at night to transfer human waste from crowded city centres to agricultural areas where it would be used as fertiliser.  Much less glamorous than CIWL but under similar modelling constraints - not seen so not modelled.

Don't think I ever saw any of those, either in model or 12" scale. 

I have seen models of a GWR manure wagon, but I thought that was for horse dung from the stables.

[Nearholmer]

This is rather off-topic (or, a rather 'off' topic), but certainly street-sweepings, and probably night-soil that was collected in the same carts, was fowarded from a depot at Walworth Road, by rail to market gardens and orchards in Kent. I'd have to check maps*, but I seem to recall that the Walworth Road depot was below the LC&DR viaduct, and connected to the tracks by a wagon-lift, which is differernt from a wagon lit by only one letter, so is almost on-topic.

 

A lot of London night-soil went out by river, as in boats, though, again to market gardens, both up and down stream.

 

*It was. The maps are a bit hard to interpret, but by c1915, I think there was a multi-level system. with the main railway on viaduct, an intermediate street level for the dust carts, and tracks below street level, presumably allowing direct tipping from dust carts, with a wagon lift. All very efficient!

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Nearholmer

[sncf231e]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Modelling non-British railways is rather a minority sport here, but like all minority sports, it’s fans are passionate about it.

Even those modelling non-British railways seem to have no preference for CIWL by the looks of it (on the RMWEB): https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/222-continentaloverseas/

 

Maybe there was more interest in the days when these CIWL trains ran (between 50 and 100 years ago) and were then used by British people.

 

Regards

Fred

[Nearholmer]

The Hornby Riviera Blue Train definitely seems to have sold well here, judging by how many survive, so I think you are right. Pre-WW2 it would have been seen as the epitome of elegance and luxury, and still a modern thing. Triang tried a mocked-up Night Ferry Car, using their Pullman moulding, I think (R625), but it was fairly rubbish, and only sold for two years, which sort-of says it all.

 

I used to see the Up Night Ferry sometimes, so the first time I went to France on a school trip I was determined to find a suitable model. I blew all my spending money on a Jouef one, far superior to contemporary British r-t-r, but could only get the bogie fourgon, not a sleeper - long gone now, but I seem to remember that it had a birdcage lookout, and that I painted the roof tan colour, because the NF cars were like that at the time. Later, when I was an engineer with BR, I oversaw the installation of a new 11kV or 33kV (I can't remember which) power cable into Victoria station, the route running along the carriage shed in which the NF slumbered during the daytime, so I remember the cars quite well.

[C126]

Please let me raise my hand as a 'Night Ferry Nutter'; I made a pilgrimage to Shildon last year to see the carriage in the museum there.  Will post pics when I can find them at home.

 

If I am left a substantial sum by a long-lost Auntie, I intend buying a couple of made up kits from whoever it is that makes them.  Sadly, it must wait till then as they are £250 each.  As always when in a rush, I can not find a www link to the firm that does them.

[Oldddudders]

I would occasionally see the Up Ferry coming gently off Rochester Bridge, then round the bend to start the assault on Sole St Bank. I probably saw it passing Longfield, too, when I was on duty there in 1975.

 

When we first moved to France in 2004, there was a part-work for a French train including CIWL vehicles. I think I collected bits for one vehicle, which sort of complemented the RTR vehicle given me by a mature lady colleague. After all, she'd taken her toy-boy on the UK VSOE for his 50th, so why not indulge him further? Life can be tough.

[C126]

Herewith the Shildon exhibits:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not easy to photograph, but well worth a visit.  There was one at the Bluebell Railway, used as a crew coach.  Do not know if it is still there.  Surely the most romantic and glamorous of the Southern's 'Inter-regional trains'.

Edited July 9, 2022 by C126
Typo. and restore photos.

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, C126 said:

Please let me raise my hand as a 'Night Ferry Nutter'; I made a pilgrimage to Shildon last year to see the carriage in the museum there.  Will post pics when I can find them at home.

 

If I am left a substantial sum by a long-lost Auntie, I intend buying a couple of made up kits from whoever it is that makes them.  Sadly, it must wait till then as they are £250 each.  As always when in a rush, I can not find a www link to the firm that does them.

 

Which scale?

In H0, Altaya did a part work which Ian refers to and before that Revel did a saloon and one other car (I can never remember whether it was a sleeper or restaurant - even though I have an unbuilt one tucked away somewhere.)

[C126]

It was in OO, making up a kit he supplied.  The buyer specified wheels, etc.  Was it 'Marc models'?

[Bernard Lamb]

14 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

In a similar vein, I have yet to see a UK "night soil" train modelled.  These trains ran on a daily basis but at night to transfer human waste from crowded city centres to agricultural areas where it would be used as fertiliser.  Much less glamorous than CIWL but under similar modelling constraints - not seen so not modelled.

A chap by the name of Shadrach Godwin had a contract to remove night soil from London

The family owned a lot of land between Hemel and Redbourn where they would spread it.

If you look at a railway map you will see that he actually had a Halt and a siding called after him. 

If you walk in the area you can still turn up broken pieces of chamber pots that had been chucked out with the contents..

Descendants of Shadrach still live and farm in the area. I spoke to one of then last week.

Bernard

[sncf231e]

23 minutes ago, C126 said:

It was in OO, making up a kit he supplied.  The buyer specified wheels, etc.  Was it 'Marc models'?

It was indeed MARC Models. This kit does not seem to be made anymore. I made an overview of models in all gauges of the Night Ferry; it is attached to this post.

Regards

Fred

The Night Ferry sleeper modelled.pdf

[sncf231e]

30 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Which scale?

In H0, Altaya did a part work which Ian refers to and before that Revel did a saloon and one other car (I can never remember whether it was a sleeper or restaurant - even though I have an unbuilt one tucked away somewhere.)

Altaya and Revell made CIWL cars but not the Night Ferry sleeping car. An overview of all CIWL cars in all gauges and scales can be found on my website in a free to download e-book: http://sncf231e.nl/ciwl-carriages-by-fredsmall/

Regards

Fred

[HonestTom]

I suspect that if some manufacturer took the plunge and made CIWL coaches in 00, they would sell. There might not be many people modelling CIWL, but that doesn't mean that people wouldn't buy the coaches if they were available. There are certainly enough Southern express locos out there. I think the Night Ferry has the same glamour factor as something like the Coronation Scot, which certainly does have coaches available, and I doubt everyone who buys the Coronation Scot set is doing so because they model the WCML in LMS days.

[C126]

7 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I suspect that if some manufacturer took the plunge and made CIWL coaches in 00, they would sell. There might not be many people modelling CIWL, but that doesn't mean that people wouldn't buy the coaches if they were available. There are certainly enough Southern express locos out there. I think the Night Ferry has the same glamour factor as something like the Coronation Scot, which certainly does have coaches available, and I doubt everyone who buys the Coronation Scot set is doing so because they model the WCML in LMS days.

 

Like everyone who yearns for a model of 'lesser interest', I only hope this is true.  Yours waiting for a 4-CIG and a '74', let alone some re-releases...

[Nearholmer]

Yes, there are plenty of potential buyers around now, and unlike most fancy trains, it only needs one, two or three if fourgons are included, types of car.

 

It’s a yawning open goal in coarse-scale 0 too, and Fred will be well aware of the frustration in those quarters about promises unfulfilled.

[C126]

Perhaps something could be done about making the 'Night Ferry' better known, to encourage interest and potential custom.  Behrend himself, in his book, remarks upon a visitor to the N.R.M. gazing at the carriage, and telling they were still in use, to the visitor's amazement.  Would it work as a 'train set'?  One could have childish fun putting together a card 'train ferry' kit to accompany it, onto which to run the coaches.  Then extend the set with some ferry-wagons for a freight service, a couple of '33's for a later model...  Hours of endless fun!

[Nearholmer]

You’re heading swiftly in the direction of one of my better layout ideas: two tinplate 0 layouts in different rooms, one ‘Kent’, the other ‘France’ (all the way to Nice), linked by various ferries mounted on tea trolleys, including some train ferries, which are moved between the rooms to replicate crossing the Channel/Manche.  A wartime variant includes trolleys with destroyers, MTBs, LCT etc, but that’s a bit dark and depressing.

[C126]

I must say the idea of Meccano ferries springs to mind, on reading @Nearholmer 's idea of a multi-room arrangement.  Wonderful.

[Michael Hodgson]

56 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I suspect that if some manufacturer took the plunge and made CIWL coaches in 00, they would sell.

 

Yes.  They are a pretty livery, and I could see them appealing to Hornby's primary market if the price was reasonable.