Is this a GWR wagon?

[Nick Holliday]

Apologies if this has been discussed already, but I have tried searching before posting. In an interesting small book, The Great Western Railway in Wales, published by the National Museums and Galleries of Wales/Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, there is this photo of Neath wagon works, taken in 1926. The wagon nearest the camera looks, to me, rather unusual.  It has end doors at each end, with cupboard doors in the side, which are vertically planked.  The diagonal "strapping" is internal, and the bottom plank is much wider than the rest, whilst the brake gear seems to consist of a single brake block. There is no visible lettering on the side, but a number, possibly 4019, is clear on the top end plank.  I can't find any equivalent in the GWR book, nor in the limited selection of Welsh railway wagon diagrams at my disposal, and, despite pooling arrangements, it seems very unlikely that it would be a non-GWR wagon, or a Private Trader's.  Any ideas?

Is the steel open wagon a little further back a GWR ballast wagon? I couldn't find a picture showing one with the side down to confirm the central post.

Asa an aside, GWR wagon fans might be interested to know that the Saltney Wagon Works book seems to be easily available from Lightmoor Press, as I have just received my copy, at a sensible  price.

[Miss Prism]

I'm fairly sure it's not a GWR wagon.

[CEINEWYDD]

It is a most peculiar item to appear in the land of my fathers!  Not only has it got (or appears to have) end opening doors at both ends, and cupboard doors,  but also a wagon number (?) at the top right hand end of the nearer end door.  The brake lever looks like a very archaic type similar to North British wagons.    

[rodent279]

Would a railway company repair another company's wagons, if they became crippled, defective or badly damaged on their territory? Subject of course to authorisation by the owning company.

[Steamport Southport]

Looks North British or similar to me. CR or GSWR had similar ISTR.

 

Cupboard door wagons was mostly a Northern thing. Double end doors also suggest Scotland or the North.

 

If the date is right and I don't doubt it, then almost all wagons were Common User so could be repaired anywhere.

 

A lot of them were requisitioned by The Admiralty during WWI so could be something left over from then.

 

 

Jason

 

[MarcD]

The wagon is a G&SWR mineral probably a 8t one. Most G&SWR mineral are double end door as the company shipped a lot of coal out of Ayr which didn't have any wagon turntables.

Marc

[Colinh58]

Agree this is definitely an ex Glasgow & South Western 8 ton Mineral.

 

Ian Kirk made a kit of this many years ago.

[MarcD]

I did a 7mm version on a steel underframe and I have a 7mm white metal one which I think was an Oldbury kit. It's on my retooling list.

Marc

[Steamport Southport]

19 minutes ago, Colinh58 said:

Agree this is definitely an ex Glasgow & South Western 8 ton Mineral.

 

Ian Kirk made a kit of this many years ago.

 

I have a feeling the Ian Kirk Scottish wagon kits were with Sutherland and then Nucast last time they were available.

 

 

Jason

[Mikkel]

Thanks for posting that, Nick.  The two -planker is also of interest. Photos of them are not common, and this will be the first in my little collection with oil axleboxes. Can anyone make out the number? I thought it might be 36752, but that doesn't match any 2-plankers I can find in neither Atkins et al or the Wood (Saltney) book.

[rodent279]

50 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Thanks for posting that, Nick.  The two -planker is also of interest. Photos of them are not common, and this will be the first in my little collection with oil axleboxes. Can anyone make out the number? I thought it might be 36752, but that doesn't match any 2-plankers I can find in neither Atkins et al or the Wood (Saltney) book.

Looks more like 76752 to me.

[sir douglas]

G&SW 8 ton

 

1970's Ian Kirk O gauge

[Mikkel]

23 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Looks more like 76752 to me.

 

Thanks, yes it does. Still can't find it in the numbering lists for 2-plankers. Perhaps a re-allocation.

 

[kevinlms]

Regarding what is almost certainly a G&SWR Mineral wagon, what's the story with the number 4019?

It seems a strange place to put the number, on the end RHS.

 

Is it a number chalked on by the Neath wagon works, to identify it while under repairs? It also looks slightly smudged.

 

As the photo is dated 1926, that is in grouping days, so the LMS would get a repaired wagon correctly labelled with it's new number. which would have 170,000 added to whatever number the G&SWR had previously given.

[CEINEWYDD]

I have had a close look at the photo of the initial query in my volume, under a magnifying glass (and a bright light!)  and at the near end of the wagon is indeed a very slight image of a capital letter 'G'; ties in with the G & S.W. identification.   

[jim.snowdon]

5 minutes ago, CEINEWYDD said:

I have had a close look at the photo of the initial query in my volume, under a magnifying glass (and a bright light!)  and at the near end of the wagon is indeed a very slight image of a capital letter 'G'; ties in with the G & S.W. identification.   

The usage of cupboard doors is almost entirely a habit of Scottish wagon owners. South of the Border, they are rare on anything other than LMS and LNER locomotive coal wagons.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

On 08/04/2022 at 18:34, rodent279 said:

Would a railway company repair another company's wagons, if they became crippled, defective or badly damaged on their territory? Subject of course to authorisation by the owning company.

 

Yes; as far as I can work out. There is surviving paperwork for the Midland informing the owners of wagons, either PO or foreign railway company, of wagons stopped for repairs on its system and most importantly, billing them for the work done. I would suppose that with the advent of pooling during the Great War, there must have been arrangements in place, since it would obviously be impractical for a cripple to travel back to its parent railway's works for repair; however, I've not seen any documentation for this. Did the RCH come into play for distributing costs?

[Johnsy]

Cupboard door wagons were, indeed, rarely seen outside of Scotland.  Models of cupboard door wagon are even more rarely seen on RM web – so this thread gives an excuse to show three all at once.

 

 

Wagon on the left represents the wagon that started this thread. This is the 00 gauge version of the Ian Kirk kit that is shown a few posts above in 0 gauge.

 

Middle wagon represents a PO version of the same wagon. The model is a Three Aitch kit (is anyone else old enough to remember them?) with all the details filed off and the sides, ends and solebars covered with overlays. The lettering is genuine, from an HMRS photograph, but I cannot justify the livery.

 

Right hand wagon is also a kit, but I have forgotten the manufacturer (it was a very long time ago) and there is no hint on the vehicle itself.

 

The photo probably shows more c-d wagons than have appeared on RMweb for a long time (ever?), but that's quite enough for now.

 

Johnsy

from deep in GSWR country.

 

[ian@stenochs]

Definitely a G&SWR 8 ton mineral. The number was on a rectangular cast plate on the solebar but was also painted on the end which made recording easier for the tally man at the docks. They only had double end door wagons for coal, most of which went for export by sea.  Having a door at both ends made tipping quick as nothing needed to be turned before being lifted over the ships hold. Large quantities went from Ayr, Troon and Irvine docks which were equiped with large steam cranes. 

The Sou West was a canny line and insisted on using company wagons for virtually all of the traffic which meant that they could control the maintenance and charge demurrage if customers took too long to empty the load.  The few private owner wagons that they did license were limited to specific traffic flows.

[Compound2632]

39 minutes ago, Johnsy said:

(ever?)

 

Well hardly ever:

 

 

This is the whitemetal kit in 4 mm scale from 51L/Wizard. I had very generous assistance from Stuart Rankin, archivist of the G&SWRA, who supplied a file of data on these diagram 10 wagons in response to my enquiry about lettering - where the &S smaller than the GW on these wagons? - yes, was the conclusion, as seen here.

 

EDIT: This, however, is a merchandise wagon with fixed ends and a drop door, not a mineral wagon with cupboard doors. I should pay more attention.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, ian@stenochs said:

Definitely a G&SWR 8 ton mineral. The number was on a rectangular cast plate on the solebar but was also painted on the end

 

Bother. That I did not know and will now have to add!

[Steamport Southport]

51L do the bigger ones.

 

16 tonners with either steel or flitch underframes.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/gswmws/

 

 

 

Jason

 

[magmouse]

On 09/04/2022 at 07:18, Mikkel said:

The two -planker is also of interest. Photos of them are not common, and this will be the first in my little collection with oil axleboxes.

Also the first I have seen with a metal underframe, I think?

[Dave John]

Really johnsy, entire trains of cupboard door wagons trundle through the threads of RM web on a regular basis, but I suspect they get less attention than all they posh passenger trains..... 

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Cupboard door wagons are not just a pre-grouping era thing either.

 

I'm pretty sure many of us that model a later period have a few of those MOS/SNCF things. Built for post war France, but most came back in the 1950s.

 

Many survived in Internal User industrial use until the late 1980s/90s.

 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/322391/parkside_models_pc22_16_ton_br_mineral_wagon_sncf_type_plastic_kit/stockdetail

 

 

Jason