Prototypical 2 car EMU formations

[robertcwp]

Here are a couple more excerpts from the July 1939 Mon-Fri carriage workings:

 

 

[Nearholmer]

My gosh!

 

So, it was the Portsmouth stopping portion that was a 2 car, with four to Alton.

 

Am I suffering false memory syndrome, or was the Woking split in later years for Alton and Basingstoke (slow), with the Portsmouth slow a train unto itself all the way from Waterloo?

[robertcwp]

In the carriage working books that I have, 4 and 2 EPB units were always referred to as such, albeit as E.P.B. in some early books. This applied on the South Eastern even after the Subs and Hals had moved away.  The first section to receive 4 EPBs was the South Western, although the carriage workings with them in would have been London (West) in the 1950s. The first 2 EPBs were on the Central section, working the South London Line and Wimbledon-West Croydon, as well as on the South Eastern for the 10-car scheme. Going slightly off topic, in the early days of the 10-car scheme, some 10-car peak workings were 4 Sub 6 Hal, usually the Gillingham and Maidstone West services.

 

Here is an extract from the 1956 London Bridge (Central) Platform and Carriage Workings:

 

[robertcwp]

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

My gosh!

 

So, it was the Portsmouth stopping portion that was a 2 car, with four to Alton.

 

Am I suffering false memory syndrome, or was the Woking split in later years for Alton and Basingstoke (slow), with the Portsmouth slow a train unto itself all the way from Waterloo?

That was the arrangement in the 1970s, with a half-hourly 8 Vep Waterloo-Surbiton-Woking to divide, front alternately to Bournemouth and Basingstoke, rear to Alton.  The 1967 timetable was more complicated with an hourly Bournemouth and Alton (4 Vep, 4 Hap) dividing at Brookwood and an hourly Basingstoke and Portsmouth train dividing at Woking (4 Vep, 4 Hap). Photos and footage from the time suggest that some of the Alton or Portsmouth portions were only 2 Hap in practice.

[Nearholmer]

All of which reminds me of The Beatles and Dusty Springfield, because in the 60s one of my aunts had a flat in York Road in Woking, the kitchen having a grandstand view of the railway. While she and my mother gossiped, and played the latest records on the Dansette, I could spend time trying to fathom out which trains were going where.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Here is an extract from the 1956 London Bridge (Central) Platform and Carriage Workings:

Interesting that the London Bridge to London Bridge roundabouts in the 1956 off-peak ran NSS/SSN and TCF/FCT. By the 1967 WTT, the off peaks were TCS and SCT, and the other two routes peak-hours only.

 

Demystifying the initials : NSS is via Forest Hill, Norwood Junction, Selhurst, Streatham and Tulse Hill back to London Bridge. SSN is the reverse. TCF is via Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace and the Sydenham Spur to Forest Hill and back up to London Bridge, with FCT the reverse. TCS takes the TCF route as far as Crystal Palace, then diverts via Bromley Junction to Norwood Junction, and takes the NSS route thence back to London Bridge, SCT being the reverse.

 

Since 1981-ish alterations in the Gloucester Road Junction/Selhurst area, I do not believe it is now possible to run a passenger service from Norwood Junction to Selhurst. 

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Interesting that the London Bridge to London Bridge roundabouts in the 1956 off-peak ran NSS/SSN and TCF/FCT. By the 1967 WTT, the off peaks were TCS and SCT, and the other two routes peak-hours only.

 

Demystifying the initials : NSS is via Forest Hill, Norwood Junction, Selhurst, Streatham and Tulse Hill back to London Bridge. SSN is the reverse. TCF is via Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace and the Sydenham Spur to Forest Hill and back up to London Bridge, with FCT the reverse. TCS takes the TCF route as far as Crystal Palace, then diverts via Bromley Junction to Norwood Junction, and takes the NSS route thence back to London Bridge, SCT being the reverse.

 

Since 1981-ish alterations in the Gloucester Road Junction/Selhurst area, I do not believe it is now possible to run a passenger service from Norwood Junction to Selhurst. 

Yes, the London Bridge roundabout services changed off peak with the July 1967 timetable change. I think you are correct that Norwood Junction-Selhurst ceased to be a passenger route with the early 1980s rebuilding. 

[KeithHC]

The 12:18 must split at Redhill. I recall that happening but can’t remember a BIL LAV combination. Also am I right in thinking that some of the Reigate trains operated to/from Charing Cross and could have been a distance remnant of a SER/SECR operation from the pre-grouping era.

 

Keith

[Northmoor]

Ascot - Aldershot - Guildford was, I'm pretty certain, a 2-car EPB shuttle outside peak hours, until the end of those units (presumably other 2-car units before that).  A former colleague of mine had been a signalman at Ash Vale and told of some interesting techniques used when a unit was gapped at the junction!

As an aside, it shows how the line has never justified long trains (8-car through London services now just exploit selective door opening at stations), that Frimley platforms are exactly 4-car length.  There can't be that many stations in the UK where the platforms are no longer than the shortest possible train.

[Nearholmer]

I don’t think it was ever EPB, because it’s in a first class area, so HAP maybe, although I only recall VEP/CIG post BIL/HAL.

 

I spent a fair bit of time on various jobs at substations and on line side HV cables in the area, on and off from c1977-87, and cannot recall for the life of me what the trains passing us were! From Ascot to Reading and Waterloo, definitely VEP/CIG, but “round the corner”, no exact recollection, which demonstrates again the fallibility of my memory.

 

Lovely HAL picture here

 

 

[Right Away]

19 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

A much-missed sound too.

 

There was a certain something about travelling by BIL, a very comfy sort of train, even in their dusty decline. Windows wide open on a warm day, plenty of room to move about if you fancied a change, all the distinctive noises of contactors, valves, compressor, and so forth, and off-peak trains rarely seemed to have many passengers on them!
 

 

Couldn’t agree more.

 

Brighton to Portsmouth “slows” could be a somewhat dull experience, seeming to call at every farm gate west of Chichester. My favourite routes for these units were the Mid-Sussex (now Arun Valley) line, Horsted Keynes to Seaford workings, and Brighton to Eastbourne (but not the onwards bit to Ore). 

As you mention, in summer with windows down, the outside sounds are, to many, sadly missed. Jangling of shoe links from the side with no conductor rail as the shoes were “hanging loose“. Running in, as the train rolled to a halt, station announcements could (just) be discerned as the compartment passed each lamp standard with its associated loudspeaker, followed by a final groan of brake blocks and a slight jerk - (didn’t they teach him to release ‘em just before they stop?”.

Winter was a different matter. Windows dripping with condensation and stained with nicotine - “excuse me, did you know this is a No Smoker!” After dark in winter, frantic wiping of the glass in order to read the running-in board - “ is this my station?”. Drop the window, stick yer ‘ead out, stare down at the end of the platform ramp or even better, the cess. “Oh s***, I’m in the 5th coach, b****r! 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Right Away

[Oldddudders]

14 hours ago, KeithHC said:

The 12:18 must split at Redhill. I recall that happening but can’t remember a BIL LAV combination. Also am I right in thinking that some of the Reigate trains operated to/from Charing Cross and could have been a distance remnant of a SER/SECR operation from the pre-grouping era.

Undoubtedly there were such trains in the steam era, but according to Moody from 17.7.1932, when electric services commenced, it was initially a shuttle from Redhill. Through trains from London termini would have been restricted to London Bridge (C) and Victoria, because the South Eastern would have been busy enough with its own trains. Even the electrified Tatt/Cat services, introduced on 17.6.1928, have always terminated and started at LB(C) in the peaks, although this was unpopular when the electrified service was first introduced. Charing Cross, with too few platforms and the pinch point between Borough Market and Metropolitan Junctions, has always been a pig to operate! [I would occasionally relieve there as SM, now more than 40 years ago, and it was said that par for the course when services were bad was having a train for Dartford in all 6 platforms.....]

[robertcwp]

The 1956 London Bridge workings show some off-peak xx.18 trains going only to Brighton and others dividing at Redhill with a Reigate portion. Some are shown as 4 Lav for Brighton and 4 Bil for Reigate, some are the other way round and some 4 Lav for each. The 11.18 am for Brighton (no Reigate portion) is shown as 4 NOL 4 bil (and written thus with NOL in capitals and bil all lower case).  It seems most off-peak Tattenham Corner trains were from Charing Cross although there are couple that started from London Bridge (4 EPB). Peak Caterham/Tattenham trains started from London Bridge and were 2EPB and 4EPB for Tattenham and 4 EPB for Caterham. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by robertcwp
Typo.

[dibber25]

On 12/04/2022 at 20:35, Miss Prism said:

I can remember being on an early morning service in the up direction, waiting at Ascot to pick up a Guildford connection, but I can't remember a stop at Stained. I guess the pickups varied, as did the setdowns in the down direction. Normal departures from Reading were a 2-BIL plus 2-HAL pairing.

I only recall Windsor/Weybridge (18) trains splitting at Staines Central. Could be 4x2-HAP splitting at Staines so four (2 units) went ahead to Windsor and 4 to Weybridge, or off-peak and at Weekends, 2x2-HAP with one unit going each way. The Readings (28) were normally a random mixture of 2-BIL and 2-HAL to make 8 cars, splitting at Ascot with half the train going to Guildford and the rest to Reading South. They may have reduced to four cars (2 each way) at weekends but I don't recall it. They were replaced by cascaded 4-COR units which would have limited the flexibility although I imagine the timetable was re-jigged to avoid splitting and join corridor units at Ascot. I was no longer living line-side by that time. (CJL)

[robertcwp]

Just had a glance at a couple of South Eastern EMU carriage working books - September 1953 and June 1954. I spotted a lone 2 Hal working empty Gillingham-Sole Street just after the morning peak then working in passenger service from Sole Street to Swanley, where it berthed. There were a few 10 Hal formations listed on services from Victoria, dividing at Swanley. No EPB workings were shown anywhere that I could see in the September 1953 book. This changed in June 1954, with EPBs starting to appear on Charing Cross and Cannon Street trains. 10-car formations were confined to Charing Cross and I think were via Bexleyheath (workings don't make this clear). In the very early days of the EPBs prior to 1954, they were all on the South Western, it seems. 

 

I also had a glance at the 1990 book, which is the most recent one I have, and well after my main period of interest. It distinguishes facelifted and non-facelifted 2-EPBs  and shows the 4 Com units (i.e. 4 EPBs with two compartment trailers). It also shows Class 319 units as 4 Bed. 455 units are shown simply as 4.