Hornby Tier System- An Update.

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Robin Brasher said:

One problem with magazine reviews is that they don't do long term testing.

They can’t because then the item would be sold out by the time you’d soak tested for a year 😉 

That’s where forums take over for identifying and sharing solutions to issues. 
 

A magazine review can only ever be a snapshot in time of one model. They could genuinely get the only pup or decent one. No manufacturer will provide twenty locos to compare and who then has the time to test them all. The warranty is there for long term problems within the first year. 

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

New tier 1 exclusive paint sample. 
 

 

That'll be the engine formerly known as Taw Valley under there, I presume?

 

John

 

[Robin Brasher]

53 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Well, the layout is 76 feet long so each circuit requires at least twice that and all trains ran it at least once an hour, 6 days a week, so you can do the maths. And at the end of the three months, there were (according to Pete) no worn out locos, something he was as suprised about as I was.

Pete Waterman is running Hornby models of diesels which are much more reliable than their steam models because there is less to go wrong. If you cast your mind back to James May's 10 mile track in Devon you will recall that Simon Kohler told him to use one of their diesels but James used a model steam engine and it did not make it. Some of Hornby's steam engines are reliable but it is still Hornby Dublo's Cardiff Castle and a Hornby tender driven Princess that hold the model railway endurance tests in the Guiness Book of Records.

 

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Pete Waterman is running Hornby models of diesels which are much more reliable than their steam models because there is less to go wrong. If you cast your mind back to James May's 10 mile track in Devon you will recall that Simon Kohler told him to use one of their diesels but James used a model steam engine and it did not make it. Some of Hornby's steam engines are reliable but it is still Hornby Dublo's Cardiff Castle and a Hornby tender driven Princess that hold the model railway endurance tests in the Guiness Book of Records.

 

Tell that to owners of crumbly 31s and 50s....

 

There isn't actually less to go wrong in diesels, as they have three or four times more gears!

 

Incidentally, the steam engine James May used was a Tri-ang era Flying Scotsman IIRC.

 

John

Edited April 16, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

They can’t because then the item would be sold out by the time you’d soak tested for a year 😉 

That’s where forums take over for identifying and sharing solutions to issues. 
 

A magazine review can only ever be a snapshot in time of one model. They could genuinely get the only pup or decent one. No manufacturer will provide twenty locos to compare and who then has the time to test them all. The warranty is there for long term problems within the first year. 

The Railway Modeller could do long term reports on the locomotives they use in Pecorama.

[Robin Brasher]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

Tell that to owners of crumbly 31s and 50s....

 

Incidentally, the steam engine James May used was a Tri-ang era Flying Scotsman IIRC.

One of the locomotives was a Tri-ang Flying Scotsman but he also used a Hornby rebuilt Bulleid Pacific.

 

[PaulRhB]

Just now, Robin Brasher said:

The Railway Modeller could do long term reports on the locomotives they use in Pecorama.

But what’s the point a year on when there are new models to review? By then you’ve bought it and have to deal with any problems. Apart from some people having a fascination with data it provides no actual service that the forums can’t provide faster and better. To the limited staff of Pecorama it would be an unnecessary distraction from running the layouts too. 

[SHMD]

22 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

New tier 1 exclusive paint sample. 
 

 

For a minute there, I thought that was Gordon Highlander.

Well it is a square box and purple!

 

 

Kev.

 

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The Railway Modeller could do long term reports on the locomotives they use in Pecorama.

But by the time they/we found out about any defects, the loco won't be available any more so nobody will be warned off.

 

 

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Pete Waterman is running Hornby models of diesels

 

Apart from the steam locos. And the electrics. And the Bachmann locos. And the Heljan locos.

[PMP]

7 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Apart from the steam locos. And the electrics. And the Bachmann locos. And the Heljan locos.

Pedant!

[PMP]

17 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

The Railway Modeller could do long term reports on the locomotives they use in Pecorama.

Who’s going to pay for it? (The collation and accurate analysis of the data)

[Dunsignalling]

21 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

One of the locomotives was a Tri-ang Flying Scotsman but he also used a Hornby rebuilt Bulleid Pacific.

 

Yes, an early Clan Line. They tended to tie their valve gear in knots (voice of experience). Early (Blackmore Vale/Wilton/Tangmere/92 Squadron) air-smoothed Light Pacifics had similar issues. Not universal, but common enough to be annoying!

 

Later releases of both were OK after Hornby added a spacer and a longer retaining screw to the middle axle.

 

To give Hornby their due, they included the extra bits in the sets sold as spares and they fitted without needing to modify anything.

 

John

Edited April 16, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 minutes ago, PMP said:

Who’s going to pay for it? (The collation and accurate analysis of the data)

 

The people who buy the magazine, aka "The Customer"?!!

 

Mike.

[PaulRhB]

5 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

The people who buy the magazine, aka "The Customer"?!!

 

Mike.

Ooh I must but Model Railway Snore this month they’re reviewing the Bing 1923 OO range long term test . . .

[Phil Parker]

50 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

The people who buy the magazine, aka "The Customer"?!!

 

Mike.

 

Can't see tests of year-old locomotives raising sales by more then a dozen, not nearly enough to cover the cost of doing them. In fact, I can see a lot of people moaning (yes, really) "Why are there loads of pages given over to locos you can't get any more?" and buying elsewhere.

[Enterprisingwestern]

20 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Can't see tests of year-old locomotives raising sales by more then a dozen, not nearly enough to cover the cost of doing them. In fact, I can see a lot of people moaning (yes, really) "Why are there loads of pages given over to locos you can't get any more?" and buying elsewhere.

 

Me neither, but I'm assuming the customer is contributing a little bit towards it's content, or is that the advertisers job?

 

Mike.

[andyman7]

This comparison with the model world of 60 years ago is still falling into the trap of treating a point in time as 'normal'. Much of Hornby's O gauge production of the 1930s suffered terrible 'Mazak rot'. But 90 years on the models can be repaired and enjoyed because of extensive enthusiast remanufacture of parts, even though as 'new' items they lasted barely a year or two. For many years that collectors market relied on models that had been bought, broke, were put in the loft and then only disposed of in house clearances etc as needing restoration. 
Dublo models can go on indefinitely but they are relatively crude (or very crude in cases such as the Deltic), and the consumer had extremely limited choice.
The first three issues of the Hornby Class 31 had Mazak rot. None of the many subsequent issues had it, and even though Hornby replaced chassis on request, 17 years on from their release, people are still going on about it, despite many enthusiasts benefiting from salvaging the running gear from broken 31s. 
Today we have a plethora of super detail models from all eras and ages. They are beautifully detailed but can be fragile. Quite frankly, the fragility is on a par with the various finescale kitbuilt locos I have handled over the years. 

I think what (some) people would like is the dealer network of the 50s; Hornby Dublo reliability of the 60s; deep discounting of the 1980s; 1990s China prices, and the choice available today. But each era gives and each era takes, that's real life. 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

 

 

Great pictures of the Ukrainian War.

 

Back to topic.  I have ordered a Rule 1 rake of LNER coaches, that may be in short supply, for my model of the Swanage Railway from the Swanage Railway shop which is my local shop and is in tier 2. Will you please let me know if I have made the correct decision or should I have ordered directly from Hornby, which I assume is in tier 1 or a tier 1 shop wherever that exists? Whatever you reply I am going to keep my order with my local shop so as not to undermine it and not to upset a gentleman in admin.

 

Last year I ordered a Rule 1 rake of Coronation Scot coaches from the Swanage Railway shop. Hornby delivered some to the shop but told them that they were unable to deliver the others which seems strange as I would have thought people would have ordered the set. I think I ended up buying the rest directly from Hornby although they claimed they had run out of them.

I do know of a Tier 1 shop  but it seems that in reality that doesn't guarantee you will get something because even Tier 1 shops sometimes find they have been 'rationed' when their order is delivered.  Seems that even with tiers Hornby are either still over-selling or getting something else wrong in the way they do (or don't) supply retailers.

 

Fortunately there is nothing from Hornby that I either want or 'need' to suit my layout location.  However one or two potential  coaching stock variations have recently come available as Hornby have clearly managed to find retailers who will take some of their long unsold stock so I might well be tempted by something there.  And I recently bought a substantially reduced Hornby B2 Peckett because it suited my needs and was available at a price I was prepared to pay  So, unless I come across any of the more recently re-tooled steam era freight vehicles at reduced prices there's not much business Hornby is likely to get from me this year.  But that is because they are not offering anything I need although that will change when, hopefully,  the 'right' Black 5 comes along.  And with one or two exceptions I long ago stopped buying things 'I like the look of but don't fit my area of interest'.

[PMP]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

The people who buy the magazine, aka "The Customer"?!!

 

Mike.

When did they say they want it?

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Well, the layout is 76 feet long so each circuit requires at least twice that and all trains ran it at least once an hour, 6 days a week, so you can do the maths. And at the end of the three months, there were (according to Pete) no worn out locos, something he was as suprised about as I was.

Assumptions, 3 minutes per turn, 9 hours a day x 13.5 weeks x 6 days…

 

3x9 = 27 mins per day, x 6 days 162 mins per week, x 13.5 weeks = 2187 minutes, divided by 60 mins per hour = 36.45 hours…. Or approximately 1/3rd the advertised use of a typical 100 hour set of brushes… so no surprise, they are still only 1/3rd through the motor brushes life, let alone the rest of it.

 

I might be tempted to clean the wheels and check the moving parts for signs of residue picked up from use, and maybe the screws on the rods for signs of rotation wear.

 

But no i’m not surprised, my dads 1949 Duchess of Atholl still works on its original fittings, but the magnets could do with a re-mag after 73 years, everything else is original and still runs with only 3 services, all by me in 32 years, and one that cost £4.50 in 1980 which I have the receipt for.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2022 by adb968008

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Me neither, but I'm assuming the customer is contributing a little bit towards it's content, or is that the advertisers job?

 

Mike.

 

Maybe it's because I've had a beer, but I'm missing what I'm sure is a pointed remark. If you mean does the customer pay for the content, then yes of course they do. However, I'm still yet to see a demand from the people who are paying, for some very expensive reviews of models not on dealers shelves. You are welcome to try and convince me otherwise and I'll feed it into a future planning meeting.

[SamThomas]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

Well, the layout is 76 feet long so each circuit requires at least twice that and all trains ran it at least once an hour, 6 days a week, so you can do the maths. And at the end of the three months, there were (according to Pete) no worn out locos, something he was as suprised about as I was.

Depending on how you work it out that's around 100 actual miles per locomotive - not bad at all.

 

I have a particular interest in model locomotives that "work hard" for their living on long running show layouts, hence my question.

 

Couple of years ago I ran a Piko HO Hobby Locomotive (BR185) on a test track 24/7 - pulling 10 x coaches with a 1:100 gradiant on about half speed so it covered something like 1k miles before the motor failed.

 

A credit to modern mechanisms in both cases, I should imagine those on PW's layout would also be good for a similar distance.

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

8 hours ago, andyman7 said:

This comparison with the model world of 60 years ago is still falling into the trap of treating a point in time as 'normal'. Much of Hornby's O gauge production of the 1930s suffered terrible 'Mazak rot'. But 90 years on the models can be repaired and enjoyed because of extensive enthusiast remanufacture of parts, even though as 'new' items they lasted barely a year or two. For many years that collectors market relied on models that had been bought, broke, were put in the loft and then only disposed of in house clearances etc as needing restoration. 
Dublo models can go on indefinitely but they are relatively crude (or very crude in cases such as the Deltic), and the consumer had extremely limited choice.
The first three issues of the Hornby Class 31 had Mazak rot. None of the many subsequent issues had it, and even though Hornby replaced chassis on request, 17 years on from their release, people are still going on about it, despite many enthusiasts benefiting from salvaging the running gear from broken 31s. 
Today we have a plethora of super detail models from all eras and ages. They are beautifully detailed but can be fragile. Quite frankly, the fragility is on a par with the various finescale kitbuilt locos I have handled over the years. 

I think what (some) people would like is the dealer network of the 50s; Hornby Dublo reliability of the 60s; deep discounting of the 1980s; 1990s China prices, and the choice available today. But each era gives and each era takes, that's real life. 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

7 hours ago, PMP said:

When did they say they want it?

 

By continuing to buy the magazine when it has that sort of content in it, after all, the content of a product, be it book, car or whatever is dependant upon whatever people (customers) want and are willing to pay for.

 

7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Maybe it's because I've had a beer, but I'm missing what I'm sure is a pointed remark. If you mean does the customer pay for the content, then yes of course they do. However, I'm still yet to see a demand from the people who are paying, for some very expensive reviews of models not on dealers shelves. You are welcome to try and convince me otherwise and I'll feed it into a future planning meeting.

 

For once Phil you're not missing a pointed remark, I have no axe to grind with any magazine, just acting as devils advocate.

I'm not saying the customer pays for the content as such, but the content has to draw the customer in to wish to buy the magazine in the first place, or the said magazine becomes a version of the good old Exchange and Mart, just full of adverts.

I'm not daft enough to think that magazines don't need advertisers as their income keeps them afloat, without them they might probably cost £15 or more.

I am not suggesting that they are lapdogs of the manufacturers/advertisers, but publishers understandably have to tread the fine line between keeping them happy and being totally honest and truthful to their buyers, and that's not an easy job, you all have my sympathy.

 

Anyway, back to Hornby or there will be tiers before bedtime.

 

Mike.