Hornby Tier System- An Update.

[PaulRhB]

39 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I've heard there is at least one brand in the offing that's an almost entirely Chinese operation but for a few UK individuals providing intellectual/design/prototype input. 

 

I'm not aware who is paying who, or whether it'll only be sold direct from the factory.

 

Sonic and the N gauge stuff looks good in the flesh. Rails seem to be the main source advertising it so far. I understand other Revolution stockists had the N gauge range as Ben and Mike were providing assistance to Sonic too so they might carry the OO stuff possibly. 

[GeoffAlan]

9 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Sonic and the N gauge stuff looks good in the flesh. Rails seem to be the main source advertising it so far. I understand other Revolution stockists had the N gauge range as Ben and Mike were providing assistance to Sonic too so they might carry the OO stuff possibly. 

I have the Sonic 56xx and three, so far, one on order but in batch three, Hunslets. All run well.

[AY Mod]

11 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

About three years ago there was a Taiwanese seller on eBay who was offering new Hornby and Bachmann locomotives for about 1/3 the then UK price. 

 

11 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

an upstart from China released a range of products that appeared to use cloned original tooling from LGB. 

 

No questions being asked it seems. How much do *some* care about buying knock-offs, rejects or 'back door after end of shift' items? Not much it seems if the price tag is low enough.

 

🤬

 

Don't come on here promoting how 'clever' you are.

[boxbrownie]

7 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

No questions being asked it seems. How much do *some* care about buying knock-offs, rejects or 'back door after end of shift' items? Not much it seems if the price tag is low enough.

 

🤬

 

Don't come on here promoting how 'clever' you are.

It used to happen in some watch forums, nowadays anyone promoting or even showing a “homage” watch is thrown out.

 

[eldomtom2]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

 

No questions being asked it seems. How much do *some* care about buying knock-offs, rejects or 'back door after end of shift' items? Not much it seems if the price tag is low enough.

 

🤬

 

Don't come on here promoting how 'clever' you are.

Is this an official statement stating that any futher discussion of "knockoffs" (regardless of their precise legality) is not permitted?

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, eldomtom2 said:

Is this an official statement stating that any futher discussion of "knockoffs" (regardless of their precise legality) is not permitted?

 

How would someone with an ounce of common sense see my position and what the possible outcomes may be?

 

[Robin Brasher]

Hattons originally did not take pre-orders and only advertised what they had in stock.  They said that taking pre-orders was an administrative nightmare. I also did not pre-order items until the Hornby Maunsell pull push saga which sold out overnight. 

 

One of my other worst experiences was when I pre-ordered 'East Asiatic Company' from Rails.  I did not order from my local model railway shop because it had given up stocking Hornby. About three years later Rails cancelled my order because they had stopped stocking Hornby as well so I was at the back of the queue. Then I pre-ordered it from my local model shop, which was now selling Hornby items, and the model locomotive arrived about a year later.

 

It is not always the customer undermining the shop by cancelling pre-orders: it can work both ways. I have not pre-ordered anything else from Rails.

[eldomtom2]

10 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

How would someone with an ounce of common sense see my position and what the possible outcomes may be?

 

I genuinely have no idea what you are trying to say here.

[cctransuk]

5 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

How would someone with an ounce of common sense see my position and what the possible outcomes may be?

 

 

Whilst acknowledging your sensitive position, I do feel that your approach is overly aggressive / rude.

 

Some time ago I reported here that some Bachmann range locos were being sold on Aliexpress at reduced prices.

 

It was by no means evident that these models were unauthorised sales / 'knock-offs'; nor was there any reason to suppose that the were a 'scam' offering.

 

Such information is useful to fellow modellers - it is for the individual to judge if the offering is legitimate.

 

CJI.

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Such information is useful to fellow modellers - it is for the individual to judge if the offering is legitimate.

 

No, I don't want the promotion of iffy products or sources on here.

 

Simple.

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

No, I don't want the promotion of iffy products or sources on here.

 

Simple.

Makes perfect sense. BRM wants to remain part of the legit modelling scene, thus supporting both manufacturers and shops. While it does so, press releases and other news goodies will continue to be made available to it. Why would forum members want it otherwise? 

[Steamport Southport]

25 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Hattons originally did not take pre-orders and only advertised what they had in stock.  They said that taking pre-orders was an administrative nightmare. I also did not pre-order items until the Hornby Maunsell pull push saga which sold out overnight. 

 

One of my other worst experiences was when I pre-ordered 'East Asiatic Company' from Rails.  I did not order from my local model railway shop because it had given up stocking Hornby. About three years later Rails cancelled my order because they had stopped stocking Hornby as well so I was at the back of the queue. Then I pre-ordered it from my local model shop, which was now selling Hornby items, and the model locomotive arrived about a year later.

 

It is not always the customer undermining the shop by cancelling pre-orders: it can work both ways. I have not pre-ordered anything else from Rails.

 

I was pre ordering things from Hattons in the 1970s.

 

They would be written down in a big book on the counter. I wonder what happened to it as I've still got a Lima LNER V2 2-6-2 on pre order!

 

Many think that Hattons is some kind of behemoth, but it really is a Local Model Shop in the same way as all the others. Just one that modernised quickly from the shop in Open All Hours to a modern, efficient retailer.

 

If it had stayed the way it was , it would have been gone years ago.

 

 

 

Jason

[eldomtom2]

33 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

No, I don't want the promotion of iffy products or sources on here.

 

Simple.

I cannot see how the mere mention of something - without providing a link - is "promotion".

22 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Makes perfect sense. BRM wants to remain part of the legit modelling scene, thus supporting both manufacturers and shops. While it does so, press releases and other news goodies will continue to be made available to it. Why would forum members want it otherwise? 

And that speaks volumes as to the too-cosy relationship between manufacturers and magazines!

[AY Mod]

19 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

And that speaks volumes as to the too-cosy relationship between manufacturers and magazines

 

I get fed up of this worn out irritating crap from people who don't know what they're talking about.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

I cannot see how the mere mention of something - without providing a link - is "promotion".

And that speaks volumes as to the too-cosy relationship between manufacturers and magazines!

But allowing others to go on about it ultimately can affect the producers of the ripped off models as their design and research costs are circumvented. They then don’t want anything to do with the magazines as they see it as promoting rip offs and you don’t get any press releases or interviews. 
 

It’s an eminently sensible position from any magazine that’s trying to promote the hobby in general not to support illegal rip offs. They are illegal for a very good reason. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by PaulRhB

[AY Mod]

13 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

It’s an eminently sensible position from any magazine that’s trying to promote the hobby in general not to support illegal rip offs.

 

To be fair it's my personal ethical policy rather than any commercial policy in the business, it's just common sense really.

[PaulRhB]

52 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

To be fair it's my personal ethical policy rather than any commercial policy in the business, it's just common sense really.

Ethical is good for both personal and when it spreads to the business too. It’s the reason I deal with certain companies, including both my local modelshops, holding that personal view despite the price being a tad higher. 

[andyman7]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I was pre ordering things from Hattons in the 1970s.

 

They would be written down in a big book on the counter. I wonder what happened to it as I've still got a Lima LNER V2 2-6-2 on pre order!

 

Many think that Hattons is some kind of behemoth, but it really is a Local Model Shop in the same way as all the others. Just one that modernised quickly from the shop in Open All Hours to a modern, efficient retailer.

 

If it had stayed the way it was , it would have been gone years ago.

 

 

 

Jason

Hattons has been more than just a classic 'local model shop' for decades, the legendary Norman Hatton's wheeling and dealing to acquire the redundant Hornby Dublo stock from Triang in the 1960s being a prime example of his willingness to go beyond the average parochial shopkeeper.

Incidentally, that is why Hatton's had discount deals on HD back in the mid 60s before the era of deep discounting. There was always the possibility of discount prices and sale items with discontinued and remaindered stock. However it was only in the late 1970s that the concept of bulk mail order discount retailing of model railways took off, with the likes of Guy Norris, Railmail etc. Hattons also did this to compete but if you look at the adverts of the time, Hattons best prices tended to be on obsolete items where they had cleared remaining stocks.

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

Whilst acknowledging your sensitive position, I do feel that your approach is overly aggressive / rude.

 

Some time ago I reported here that some Bachmann range locos were being sold on Aliexpress at reduced prices.

 

It was by no means evident that these models were unauthorised sales / 'knock-offs'; nor was there any reason to suppose that the were a 'scam' offering.

 

Such information is useful to fellow modellers - it is for the individual to judge if the offering is legitimate.

 

CJI.

 

I presume you will be equally sanquine when "clones" of your products appear and links pop up on RMweb?

[Phil Parker]

10 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

They use several manufacturers so if one was to try selling Direct, then the incentive for a UK company to continue working with them would be gone! You won't have them all suddenly switching to direct online sales overnight! And we are a VERY fussy and well informed market to contend with that does not easily match the simplistic/non existent after sales model they use.

What they might do instead is buy the UK brand out OR just produce cheap trains similar to Lima standards in the 1970s.

 

Now imagine if I brought my APT direct from China, it would be cheaper but when the capacitor blew a hole in the roof, do you think it would be easy/cheap to send back for repair? 

 

I the larger scale world, a factory becoming "leaky" on the design front resulted in manufacture being removed from China and moved to another country.

[cctransuk]

23 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I presume you will be equally sanquine when "clones" of your products appear and links pop up on RMweb?

 

Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt; it's a fact of life nowadays.

 

I rely on my reputation, and the fact that the genuine article can only be obtained directly from me. In-house production is the key to retaining control of one's products.

 

I would also comment that excessive pricing can increase the chance of the circulation of 'back door' product 'leakage'!

 

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[Phil Parker]

18 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

I would also comment that excessive pricing can increase the chance of the circulation of 'back door' product 'leakage'!

 

I'm going to be boring and ask for numbers as I always do. If you are going to accuse manufacturers of "excessive pricing" then presumably you have figures that would normally be commercially confidential.

 

Of course, you can reduce prices by not paying for designers. Maybe ALL designers should work for free to subsidise other people's hobbies?

[cctransuk]

45 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I'm going to be boring and ask for numbers as I always do. If you are going to accuse manufacturers of "excessive pricing" then presumably you have figures that would normally be commercially confidential.

 

Of course, you can reduce prices by not paying for designers. Maybe ALL designers should work for free to subsidise other people's hobbies?

 

Phil,

 

Let's not get silly!

 

"Excessive pricing" can imply two things - an over-inflation of the profit margin, or exceeding the price that the market feels reasonable for the product offered for sale, regardless of the cost of production.

 

In the latter case, the producer must review the product specification and seek to reduce production costs.

 

I am certainly not advocating a return to 'Design Clever' but, as producers endlessly pursue greater and greater sophistication in thir products, they also pursue a smaller and smaller sector of the market that can still afford to buy their output.

 

Time was when models met the needs of the majority of the market. Those who desired greater sophistication either built their own, or at least learned the skills to add the detail that they craved.

 

Today, there are those who demand the ultimate in detail, in every livery under the sun - no matter how obscure - and with every conceivable electronic gimmick. Moreover, they buy their locos and stock in numbers that rival the prototype. Fine - if they can afford it, then that's their business.

 

But what of lesser mortals? In pandering to these modelling oligarchs, the mainstream producers are chasing an ever-diminishing market that can afford to buy, so please do not get prissy if some of our brethren seek more affordable sources.

 

You will no doubt dismiss the above as sour grapes - not so! I am fortunate enough to have the means to buy these high-spec / high price wonder-models, BUT I WON'T - primarily because there is little or no scope for putting my 'personality' on them via actual MODELLING.

 

RTR model railway producers pursue the ultimate in sophistication and pricing at their peril - I read here the ever-increasing protests about the latter, and they are dismissed far too readily by the administration of this forum.

 

I expect / hope to be around to see the consequences of the "commission small batches and sell them at the necessary high price" policies come back and bite those responsible - and it won't be a pretty sight! Some amongst us may, though, find the need to learn how to model.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited April 15, 2022 by cctransuk

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

pandering to these modelling oligarchs

 

Please stop being (absolutely) ridiculous.

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Please stop being (absolutely) ridiculous.

 

Andy,

 

I used that particular word as being mildly amusing and topical - but the point remains valid.

 

The pricing of the latest announcements is simply beyond the means of a rapidly increasing proportion of potential purchasers on modest incomes.

 

Others of us, with an appreciation of the fact that toy trains have a finite value in the greater scheme of things, simply draw the line and say "enough is enough".

 

As predicted, such comments are ridiculed here by those in control, for reasons which are well understood by most members.

 

So be it - let's give it a couple or three years and see if there's been a marked change in marketing policy, shall we?

 

John Isherwood.