Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[33211]

I have been reading all the posts about the 4-VEP with interest, and took the plunge at Model Rail and bought an NSE Vep. I realise that it maybe not 100% perfect, but I thing it is a great model and as a frequent traveller in the past, it brings back many memories. (Mainly drafts coming thought the doors)

 

However, I do have one major problem that on my DCC layout it has yet to get over any points without short circuiting. I have a range of other Locos from Hornby and Bachmann and have never experienced the problem.

 

Has anyone experienced this and if so what are the potential cures?

[John M Upton]

After a morning of testing including turning it around and running it the other way, I have narrowed down running problems to two distinct areas.

 

1: Much like Hornby's steam locos of recent times, it doesn't like turning left through older production Peco three way 'Y' points, easily fixed with a new set, pity they are now so ruddy expensive!! It also means until the S&T boys can fix it, the bay platform is barred to the VEP until further notice!!

 

2: The wheel set on the Unit causing pretty much all the problems is the one with the traction tyres on it, it likes to climb up and derail at random points during the journey!! It is also causing the motor bogie to stall and squeal alarmingly. That wheel set will have to be replaced, any suggestions for a matching wheel set sans said tyres that will fit easily?

Edited September 19, 2011 by John M Upton

[kintbury jon]

The wheels will probably be available as spares soon. Would it be an option to remove the tyres for now or would that be even worse?

Edited September 19, 2011 by kintbury jon

[S.A.C Martin]

The wheels will probably be available as spares soon. Would it be an option to remove the tyres for now or would that be even worse?

 

Worse as the tyres are designed into the sets: they leave a notch around the tyre where they fit.

 

Would any of the Hornby spare coach wheels fit the VEP suitably? A set from an upowered coach could be fitted onto the axle of the traction tyre set and the missing set on the unpowered coach replaced.

[kintbury jon]

I had a good look at the axles as I have some spare class 73/DMU and 59/47 axles. The VEP axles are in between the two which doesn't help!

[Guest oldlugger]

Actually, to be perfectly honest I think the Hornby 4 VEP represents excellent value for money. Four coaches (with interior lighting and all wheel pick up) one with a motor, is a good deal to get for the price. Imagine what the equivalent in built/painted kit form would cost? £450 plus. Even £148 is peanuts compared to some RTR EMU's in the smaller scales. The Swiss company (Japanese made) HRF sell HOe EMU's for something nearing £1,800. These models come without lighting. I know the latter is an extreme example but it does put the Hornby model (and other 4mm models) into perspective. Overall, I think it looks the part too and would complement nicely the two recent Bachmann EMU's. Had Hornby released this model ten years ago I doubt many would have complained but would have welcomed it with open arms. If my P4 southern layout was bigger I would definitely buy one as I think it is a rather handsome model, and a prototype that I've travelled on many, many times (from Bournemouth). I wish I could justify buying one - maybe I will one day. As the big manufacturers release more unusual types of motive power at very fair prices I think "our" quest for finer and more accurate detail can be a little OTT at times. What's happened to the kit bashers/super detailers/scrapbox heroes of old who would not have found the 4 VEP a problem but a wonderful platform for upgrading? I think the major model railway manufacturers need a big pat on the back from us, not a kick up the backside. Another example, the Heljan class 86; who would have criticised that so vehemently ten years ago??? Not many. To my eyes it is every bit a class 86 and a very fine model. Likewise, if I had a west coast mainline layout I would buy it without question. With such poor press about certain recent models I'm sure that the main manufacturers will feel less inclined to offer anything innovative in future. We should support them and perhaps put up more with a few hiccups. Top notch handbuilt brass model companies get it wrong sometimes... even top notch British modellers. Non of us are perfect.

 

Cheers

Simon

Edited September 19, 2011 by oldlugger

[Brian Kirby]

On the subject of VEPs derailing, has anyone checked the diameter of the paired wheelsets ( including the traction tyred ones ) with a vernier? On a non-powered bogie it doesn't matter if one wheelset has ever so slightly bigger or smaller wheels, than another wheelset, but both the wheels on one wheelset must be identical diameter to eachother. If not, the wheelset/axle will yaw to the left or right and probably derail. If you can't measure the wheel diameters, the simple test is to remove a wheelset and roll it down straight track, it should run straight and true.

 

Remember when Hornby first released their super detail Pullman cars a few years ago? They were plagued with derailments, i found the cause to be irregular diameter wheels. The factory seemed to have produced two sizes of wheel, mixed up on the same axles. The cure was to put all the slightly bigger wheels on one lot of axles, all the slightly smaller wheels on another set of axles.

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Ceptic]

An observation (not an experiment)

Comparing the trailer cars' free-wheeling abilities, with those of the Bachmann CEP, even on a 1% gradient, the CEP trailers just 'ran away', leaving the VEP's stuck.

The latest (lit) Hornby Pullmans did do better, but their Maunsells were as good as the Bachmann CEP trailers.

[Guest oldlugger]

Here's a nice video of a 4 VEP (some have probably seen it already) at Eastleigh. I was surprised to see it working over pretty rusty conductor rails and that the pick up shoes only use half the surface of the third rail:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSut8fTQ06w&feature=related

 

Cheers

Simon

Edited September 19, 2011 by oldlugger

[frobisher]

I am also noting that the motor bogie falters over pointwork despite the plethora of contacts throughout the train.

 

I though that the only coach with pickups was the MBS?

[John M Upton]

The pick ups on the unpowered vehicles are only for the lighting, the pick ups for the motor are on the MBSO only, apparently...

[S.A.C Martin]

Actually, to be perfectly honest I think the Hornby 4 VEP represents excellent value for money. Four coaches (with interior lighting and all wheel pick up) one with a motor, is a good deal to get for the price. Imagine what the equivalent in built/painted kit form would cost? £450 plus. Even £148 is peanuts compared to some RTR EMU's in the smaller scales.

 

The new Dapol four car HST has an RRP of £159.95 - with that, you get provision for sound speakers, 6 pin DCC sockets for lighting and motor control (separately) and supremely well detailed bodies with reputedly a terrific mechanism underneath.

 

The 4VEP has an RRP of £168 DCC ready. It does not have provision for speakers, nor separate sockets for lighting and motor control. It does have lighting throughout the four carriages, but it is also an almost all moulded plastic affair with few separately detailed parts on the body or bogies. The interior is similar in spec.

 

Comparing apples with apples, we have two EMUs which are four car units. The Bachmann CEP has an RRP of £ 148.15 - it has a large can motor with flywheel with provides sufficient and smooth power. It has a 21 pin DCC socket and full lighting throughout. It has a plethora of separately fitted detail components throughout the model,

 

The Swiss company (Japanese made) HRF sell HOe EMU's for something nearing £1,800. These models come without lighting. I know the latter is an extreme example but it does put the Hornby model (and other 4mm models) into perspective.

 

Right, but what materials are these models made out of, how are they made, how many separate component fittings are there, and how many in a production batch? It doesn't put the VEP into perspective at all because without the facts of the former to hand, you cannot compare like with like. It's fruitless to suggest an £1800 train can be in any way inferior to the 4VEP, surely...?!

 

Had Hornby released this model ten years ago I doubt many would have complained but would have welcomed it with open arms.

 

Everyone probably would have done - but crucially it is not ten years ago, and Hornby have made a rod for their own back with the 4VEP by pretty much ten years of excellence. Be it in the form of the castles, clans, pullman twelve wheelers, the Thompson L1, the class 60, 56 or the mk3 DVT, and so on and so forth, they kept raising the bar and naturally people expected them to continue at that level.

 

As the big manufacturers release more unusual types of motive power at very fair prices I think "our" quest for finer and more accurate detail can be a little OTT at times.

 

I do not think it is OTT to not want traction tyres on a four car EMU when the method for powering a 4 car EMU has been tried, tested, and refined extremely well in 2010 by another rival manufacturer. As for the detail - again, Hornby set the bar high, not the consumer.

 

For the money they are asking, the VEP is a model rooted in the principles of the 1980s and early 1990s - few detail parts, mostly moulded, cheap to manufacture mechanism and to cap it off, a price tag which is higher than its next nearest (and significantly superior) competitor.

 

I think the major model railway manufacturers need a big pat on the back from us, not a kick up the backside.

 

They do get their pats on the back when they get it right. That's why there is a "model manufacturer of the year" and various other awards around the various publications and websites. When they get it wrong, everyone in the hobby wants them to get it right next time.

 

How can they do so if no one is allowed to make that constructive criticism they need?

With such poor press about certain recent models I'm sure that the main manufacturers will feel less inclined to offer anything innovative in future.

 

This is complete rubbish. So constructive criticism when put well is a hindrance? Several models have been improved precisely because people got out their calipers and started making observations.

 

We should support them and perhaps put up more with a few hiccups.

 

People should buy what they feel, on the basis of quality, cost and general accuracy, they are able to. I am not certain I would take a gamble on anything like the 4VEP again because its total, against its quality and accuracy is far too high, and this is only made clearer by looking at the Bachmann 4CEP which is superior in every single department.

 

Top notch handbuilt brass model companies get it wrong sometimes... even top notch British modellers. None of us are perfect.

 

But Top brass companies will still have the performance and the materials which are the greatest cost compared to the injection moulded plastic of the VEP. I don't think it's fair to compare a brass train with a mass produced plastic one.

 

Stick to the facts: the 4VEP has a close competitor in the form of the Bachmann 4CEP and it does not measure up - not in price, not in quality, not in running (so far as my 4VEP has proven against my friend's 4CEP).

 

 

Another example, the Heljan class 86; who would have criticised that so vehemently ten years ago??? Not many. To my eyes it is every bit a class 86 and a very fine model. Likewise, if I had a west coast mainline layout I would buy it without question.

 

And I would be in complete agreement, if not for the simple facts: that the Heljan 86 has 1) a fantastic mechanism 2) a plethora of separately detailed components and 3) is not significantly more expensive than similar models being sold by its competitors, nor is it inferior in its technical quality (never mind accuracy), and 4) the previous RTR 86 on the market was not dissimilar in its setup to the current Hornby 4VEP.

 

 

What's happened to the kit bashers/super detailers/scrapbox heroes of old who would not have found the 4 VEP a problem but a wonderful platform for upgrading?

 

In this thread, several people have identified workarounds and have done so to their models within hours of receiving them. I myself have a shopping list to improve it. But Hornby saw fit to raise the bar with their models, as did Bachmann - when you are buying £168 for a model, it should be worth that £168 intrinsically in its quality.

 

That the Hornby 4VEP does not meet the standard of the 4CEP is not the consumer's fault, nor are the high expectations of the consumer in this case at fault when Hornby indicated very early on in the development of their model that it would be in its main range, not Railroad.

 

Overall I am finding the "let's complain about people complaining" comments to be highly flawed and rather tiring. By all means, everyone can have their own opinion on the matter - but a negative opinion is equally valid, if not more so, in this case, when the facts of the matter are to hand and similar products are examined more closely.

 

 

I though that the only coach with pickups was the MBS?

 

The pick ups on the unpowered vehicles are only for the lighting, the pick ups for the motor are on the MBSO only, apparently...

 

And here I too, am misinformed! I guess I wrongly assumed Hornby had made it so. How can you have all wheel pickups for lights and yet only four axles are actually charged for the motor out of a possible 16?

 

Overall it simply cements my view that the model - whilst I have grown very fond of mine - is fundamentally flawed in its design and ridiculously overpriced for its quality, or lack thereof.

Edited September 20, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[Brian Kirby]

Having said about how crucial that pair of wheels need to match in diameter, i should have also added that the traction tyres on the motor bogies also need to match their opposite wheel, be it plain metal or another tyre. If the rubber tyre is not properly seated or the groove for it is not deep enough, the outside diameter of the rubber tyre could be too great, this too could lead to yawing and derailments.

 

Cheers, Brian.

 

 

[Oldddudders]

Is this a job for Bullfrog Snot? http://www.bullfrogs.../blog/blog.html

Edited September 20, 2011 by Oldddudders

[Guest oldlugger]

Well, I won't bother posting on this matter any further and I'm sorry that I wasted my time chaps.

 

Cheers

Simon

[S.A.C Martin]

Reading back through my own post (as I said privately in response to your PM), I will apologise here and now publicly for it being particularly abrupt in tone.

 

However - my points in rebuttal to your own are valid, and still stand.

[brushman47544]

Well, I won't bother posting on this matter any further and I'm sorry that I wasted my time chaps.

 

Cheers

Simon

Well I think it has been good to have some positive comments alongside the negative ones.

 

There have been lots of posts comparing the different costs of Bachmann and Hornby (in particular) models and the possible reasons for this. Quality is in some ways a separate issue. I am sure Bachmann, Hornby, Heljan etc. all set out with the aim of producing a high quality model. Sometimes they deliver, on other occasions not. As I have said in the past on other threads, I am convinced that the quality of a final product is down almost wholly to the accuracy of the original tooling based on the toolmaker's interpretation of the CADs. If the toolmaker has done a good job first time round, fewer changes are needed later that may be difficult or costly to incorporate. There is always likely to be some degree of compromise between cost, accuracy, getting the model on sale and not delaying other models in the queue for toolmaking capacity.

 

Hornby can deliver - look at the Class 60, Class 50, Maunsell and Hawksworth coaches. It just seems that we have been unlucky with the VEP. We need to remember that the price is decided more or less when the model is announced and appears in the catalogue, which is likely to be near the start of the development process. No manufacturer can afford to reduce the price if the final model is not as good as they intended because their costs are no different. If the VEP had been up to the same standard as the CEP in terms of accuracy, would we have complained about the price/value to the extent seen here, knowing that Hornby models are comparatively more expensive than Bachmann's? Somehow, I doubt it.

[S.A.C Martin]

There have been lots of posts comparing the different costs of Bachmann and Hornby (in particular) models and the possible reasons for this. Quality is in some ways a separate issue. I am sure Bachmann, Hornby, Heljan etc. all set out with the aim of producing a high quality model. Sometimes they deliver, on other occasions not. As I have said in the past on other threads, I am convinced that the quality of a final product is down almost wholly to the accuracy of the original tooling based on the toolmaker's interpretation of the CADs. If the toolmaker has done a good job first time round, fewer changes are needed later that may be difficult or costly to incorporate. There is always likely to be some degree of compromise between cost, accuracy, getting the model on sale and not delaying other models in the queue for toolmaking capacity.

 

Absolutely, I completely agree RE compromise.

 

 

Hornby can deliver - look at the Class 60, Class 50, Maunsell and Hawksworth coaches. It just seems that we have been unlucky with the VEP. We need to remember that the price is decided more or less when the model is announced and appears in the catalogue, which is likely to be near the start of the development process. No manufacturer can afford to reduce the price if the final model is not as good as they intended because their costs are no different.

 

So the development of the model sets the RRP accordingly, not the actual cost to manufacture?

 

If the VEP had been up to the same standard as the CEP in terms of accuracy, would we have complained about the price/value to the extent seen here, knowing that Hornby models are comparatively more expensive than Bachmann's? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

Well, of course not. Because then its price and value would match the Bachmann model which has rightly been praised greatly in the modelling press. That is exactly the point. As it stands, the VEP is an inferior model with a higher retail price than the CEP.

 

No one would have complained one iota if the VEP had lived up to both the similarly sized and priced CEP before it and the specification previous Hornby models in this vein have had.

[Trains4U]

An observation (not an experiment)

Comparing the trailer cars' free-wheeling abilities, with those of the Bachmann CEP, even on a 1% gradient, the CEP trailers just 'ran away', leaving the VEP's stuck.

The latest (lit) Hornby Pullmans did do better, but their Maunsells were as good as the Bachmann CEP trailers.

 

 

I tried a similar experiment with two unpowered trailers from the CEP and VEP on runswick leamside. The circuit is approximately 80ft

 

With appropriate force, the trailers of the CEP will freewheel a complete circuit before coming to a stop. (From the station overbridge)

 

The VEP trailers, pushed with a similar force get about 10 ft (Just past the end of the platforms.

 

Not particularly scientific, but shows up the friction that the Hornby motor has to overcome with clipped-in axles, rather than pinpoint or roller bearing mounts., hence the need for traction tyres.

[brushman47544]

So the development of the model sets the RRP accordingly, not the actual cost to manufacture?

As I understand it, the development costs, including design and toolmaking, are somewhat greater than the cost of producing the models themselves. A manufacturer sets it RRP based on these costs, factoring in the number of models it plans to produce. Usually a manufacturer does not seek to recover all its costs from the first production run, but allows for future production as well (for the VEP I am sure Hornby already has a B/G variant built into its costs/pricing).

 

This is why older models are often cheaper - the development costs have already been recovered many times over and all that needs to be covered are the costs of the current production run.

[Southernman46]

Always preferred CEP's to VEP's in 12" to the foot anyway.............

[303013]

Right, is anyone planning a 4 - CIG to complete the set, like?

Edited September 20, 2011 by Mod6
Unsubstantiated criticism removed

[Trevellan]

What was the difference between a VEP and a CIG anyway?

 

Sacrilege! Heresy!

 

As others will no doubt point out, the VEPs had high density seating and doors to virtually every bay, whereas the lovely CIGs were effectively Mk1 SOs etc in an EMU.

 

In terms of the debate around price and quality of the Hornby model, I don't recall seeing any comparisons with products such as those produced by Bratchell Models. Having seen the latter in the flesh at Ally Pally last year I was quite impressed with the finished products on display, but they carry a hefty price tag (obviously due to numbers produced) and, as pretty as they were, there seemed to be something not quite right about them either. Or is it just me?

[303013]

 

Sacrilege! Heresy!

 

As others will no doubt point out, the VEPs had high density seating and doors to virtually every bay, whereas the lovely CIGs were effectively Mk1 SOs etc in an EMU.

 

 

Yes, I use a mousemat with a lovely picture of the blue and grey 3 - CIG (1497?) on the Lymington branch, and seeing the youtube video of Gordon posted above, I was able to make a quick comparison, thereby answering my own question (hence why I removed it in the vain hope that nobody had responded in time )

 

ITS THE DOORS!!

Edited September 20, 2011 by 303013

[Gwiwer]

What was the difference between a VEP and a CIG anyway?

 

Perhaps ask what is the difference between a Grange and a King? Or a class 47 and a class 55?

 

The similarities are that they were 4-car 750v EMUs on the former BR Southern Region and powered by EE507 traction motors. Much beyond there the similarities ended. Rather than digress from the topic at hand perhaps a quick link to our friends in the SEmG will help. http://semgonline.co...otoind.html#emu

Edited September 20, 2011 by Gwiwer