What electronics to consider

[regme]

Hi

 

Now that the layout and baseboard are 90% there, I've started to put some thought into the electronics side of things.  I have a NCE Power Cab, which I may add the PB5 Booster later.

 

All the points are electrofrog and will have their only power supply and controlled with a control panel.  Same with the lighting, it will have it's own power supply.

 

The layout will not be computer controlled, so what other electronic gadgets should I be considering, Arduino comes to mind, do I need voltage and amp meters.

 

Really not sure, I have seen a lot on underside of layouts, but found no real explanation of what is being used or for what.

 

Cheers

[Phil Bullock]

What point motors are you using? Any diamonds or reversing loops? 

[WIMorrison]

That is a rather broad church and a question that can’t really be answered because it depends 100% on what you want to do with the layout - you might want electronics to do lightning, you may want sounds, you may want visual effects, you may want signals, you may want …

 

give us a clue then we may be able to make suggestions

[Huw Griffiths]

I'm not trying to be evasive - but this sounds like one of those "how long is a piece of string" type questions.

 

I haven't come across meters on layouts (except for a couple of digital multimeters in your toolbox - they really come in useful!).

 

Arduino usually just means a type of microcontroller board (OK - I know these boards come in lots of "flavours" - and some people will say it means more than this - they're right - but ...). I know that a lot of MERG members use these boards to control animations and gadgets on their layouts. In time, I intend to learn more about them. Ultimately, though, it might make sense to view Arduino boards as a means of operating other stuff - or even as "breadboard fodder".

 

As for animations, potentially "the sky's the limit".

 

As has already been suggested, it might be best to think about what you actually want to do - and then explore how much of this can reasonably be achieved using electronics.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

you might want electronics to do lightning

I' ve seen layouts with quite convincing snows scenes, but I suppose a Van der Graaf Generator would be a novelty, with a sound module producing the accompanying thunder 😁

 

More seriously I agree that this opens a whole lot more questions to determine what will suit a particular layout/operator.

 

I infer that the OP is not unduly interested in electronics for its own sake, but more what it can do for his layout, so really the question is more about what DCC optional modules to buy such as :

• autoreversers - if there are reverse loops
• district cut-outs, to localise the impact of short-circuits - desirable on bigger layouts.
• booster to the power supply (again probably only for bigger layouts)
• signal driver boards (if you are using DCC for your signals)
• feedbacks or track occupancy detectors and display drivers if you want to do an illuminated track diagram (maybe only for hidden storage sidings)
• preferred method of controlling points and similar accesories - do you want to do it from a hand-held controller or a lever frame/switches on a panel, in which case you may want to convert the state of the switches to DCC signals
• I don't really see a need for metering, though they can be useful in fault tracing if you know what you're looking for.

An important point to realise is that whilst you may be using DCC to control the trains, you can still use conventional methods of controlling points and signals (or indeed vice vera).  The advantage of using DCC on accessories is that it can simplify the wiring of layout/control panel and minimise the numbers of wires to be plugged across board joins or a portable layout; other control buses can do the same.

For accessories, it is advisable to run them off a separate bus from that used for the track supply.

 

If however you want to get into electronics I would stronly advise joining MERG, because as Huw says there are a lot of people doing novel projects using Arduino among other things.

 

 

[Huw Griffiths]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

More seriously I agree that this opens a whole lot more questions to determine what will suit a particular layout/operator.

 

I infer that the OP is not unduly interested in electronics for its own sake, but more what it can do for his layout, so really the question is more about what DCC optional modules to buy such as :

 

In all honesty, DCC - and even Arduino boards - can sometimes be "overkill" for some stuff on layouts - well, railway modelling in general.

 

 

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If however you want to get into electronics I would strongly advise joining MERG, because as Huw says there are a lot of people doing novel projects using Arduino among other things.

 

Fair comment.

 

At this point, I should probably add a disclaimer. I joined MERG last summer - and I've just renewed my membership - so it clearly suits me.

 

As for whether being a member of MERG suits anyone else, to some extent this depends what you want to do. I personally see MERG as a virtual club - mainly about electronics and model railways - which I'm glad I joined:

• MERG offer a number of kits to do different things on layouts - some are very simple (a number of these were originally devised as "learning aids" - but still useful in railway modelling) - others are rather more complex. For a number of years, MERG membership sometimes appeared to be "sold" on the basis of access to these kits being a membership benefit - however, the emphasis seems to be changing.
• The original primary objectives of MERG  were - to encourage people to find practical uses for electronics in railway modelling - and to encourage people to learn about stuff like this. They now appear to be returning towards these objectives.
• MERG have a "members only" forum website - where members are welcome to post questions and observations about a wide variety of topics. The replies they get tend to be very helpful and constructive. The forum also serves as a "gateway" to lots of other stuff.
• MERG also have a number of Area Groups (AGs) - and Special Interest Groups (SIGs) - which I've found to be very good.
• Prior to the Corona menace, most AGs tended to meet "in person", for regular "workshop" sessions. When Corona became an issue, these groups actively embraced the opportunity Zoom offers to encourage participation by members from other areas (sometimes other countries, or even continents). We're actively encouraged to get involved with any / all AGs that interest us. Now that Corona restrictions have been relaxed, a number of AGs have started meeting in person again - but a lot of the Zoom sessions also continue.
• A number of SIGs have been set up, to facilitate discussion etc about various topics - usually via Zoom sessions (effectively used as virtual classrooms). For example, I'm a member of SIGs about Arduino and 3D printing. The usual session format seems to be - a talk about some topic of interest - then a Q&A session - followed by general discussion / "social" chat. (A number of AG Zoom sessions also seem to follow a similar format.)

I've learnt a lot through my membership - and gained a number of friends.

 

It works for me.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Huw Griffiths

[regme]

Hi

Thanks for all the responses, I thought this was a loaded question when I pressed post.  Also it has answered some questions I have and provided some food for thought.

 

So to answer a few of the questions.

The layout is based on an iron ore operation so it's very simple, one main line, sidings for the train load out, car dumper, maintenance shed and some storage sidings.

 

The point motors are going to be servos, I have used both Hornby point motors on my current layout and servos on my small layout.  Both are controlled from a control panel with it's own power supply, so I'm going to run with using servos on the new layout.

 

Currently I control the movements from the main line to the sidings and vise versa with switches turning the power on and off.  Maybe I could do this a bit smarter using block detection.

 

The big one is controlling the train load out and car dumper.

 

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I infer that the OP is not unduly interested in electronics for its own sake, but more what it can do for his layout,

 

As Michael pointed out, it's not unduly interested in electronics it's my lack of knowledge in the subject and where to start and to ask the right questions.

 

I'll check out that MERG site

 

My thoughts where to somehow future prove the layout so that I could expand as my knowledge increases and I don't have to start again.  Maybe that's asking too much.

 

Cheers

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks for response. Electrofrog points with servos …. Will the frogs be powered by microswitches or frog juicers? I was going to use servos on my new layout as a cheap option but went for cobalt Digitals  instead as a hassle free option  - no regrets!

[Ron Ron Ron]

21 hours ago, regme said:

....... I have a NCE Power Cab, which I may add the PB5 Booster later......

 

You can't just add a PB5 booster to a PowerCab.

It's not meant to be used with this starter system and is designed to be used as an additional booster on a full NCE PowerPro system.

 

If you want to increase the power output, or capability of a PowerCab, then there are 3 routes....

 

1. Add a SB5 Smart Booster. The name of this is actually a bit of a misnomer, as the Smart Booster is both a replacement Command Station and a Booster.

    Additional DB5 boosters can be added to the SB5, if necessary.

 

2. Upgrade the PowerCab to a full PowerPro system, by adding a PH Box.

     This is the combined Command Station and Booster that you get when buying a full PowerPro system, rather than a PowerCab.

 

3. Use the track output of a PowerCab, to feed any booster that can take such an input, rather than using a dedicated input connection from a dedicated booster output on a Command Station.

 

 

.

[Huw Griffiths]

On 28/05/2022 at 22:56, regme said:

As Michael pointed out, it's not unduly interested in electronics it's my lack of knowledge in the subject and where to start and to ask the right questions.

 

I'll check out that MERG site

 

My thoughts where to somehow future prove the layout so that I could expand as my knowledge increases and I don't have to start again.  Maybe that's asking too much.

 

Sounds interesting.

 

Probably best if I start with the stuff about MERG.

 

Their website is in a number of sections. One section is accessible to non members - and includes a "free to download" e-book about electronics, aimed at non specialists - I'd definitely recommend downloading this and looking through it.

 

You might be wondering why I'm suggesting downloading this e-book, when you've said you don't want to get drawn too far into electronics. Well, if you're planning on building / installing any electronics on a layout, it's useful if you know (or can check) enough about what's there to be able to do some basic debugging.

 

You don't need to know everything about everything (I doubt if anyone does) - but a basic working knowledge can often come in useful.

 

Just for information, the guy who wrote this e-book has built a number of layout animations (quite a few of them operated using easy to assemble electronics modules that he designed - and which are now sold as kits for members).

 

 

Most of the MERG website (plus kits etc) are only available to members.

 

At this point, I could imagine some people wondering who these members are - well, we're actually quite a diverse and inclusive group. Some have very technical backgrounds - some don't - some are somewhere between these extremes.

 

However, this doesn't need to be a problem - as the people who run the Area Groups and Special Interest Groups go out of their way to keep them accessible, even to people without specialist knowledge.

 

This suits me just fine - as, like a number of people, I know some stuff about certain topics and next to nothing about other topics. I'm using the SIGs about Arduino and 3D printing as a way of learning something about them - I wouldn't be surprised if similar stuff were to feature more prominently in railway modelling in future years.

 

 

If you're able to visit any model railway shows with a MERG presence, I'd suggest having a chat with the people manning the stand - they'll often be from local Area Groups, although some might turn out to be committee members.

 

You might also find that some of the layouts at shows use MERG modules, controls etc - I've sometimes seen show layouts with prominent labels advertising this fact. Chances are that at least some of the people manning these layouts will turn out to be members of MERG.

 

Ultimately, I think you'll probably want to know if you'd be able to get sensible answers to any questions you might have (you're likely to have plenty, over time). I'm not trying to do a "sales pitch" here - MERG membership suits a number of people, but not everyone.

 

 

Now let's think about what you're looking to achieve with your layout.

 

A number of animations - like the car dumper - are likely to be motorized. I'm guessing that they might use servos or stepper motors - I don't know if you'll want to control them yourself, or if you'll want to automate them.

 

Whatever you do, I think it would be a mistake to jump into anything. A number of people build animations, controls etc as modules, which can be built away from the layout and added / upgraded when you're satisfied that they work and look "right". This approach strikes me as sensible - and also allows for maintenance.

 

 

As for electronic controls, there's also an issue of how far you want to go. Some people go for full digital control - with everything connected to layout buses etc - others control just the trains (or perhaps points etc) using DCC - others keep everything "old school" DC. Different approaches work for different people. Whichever approach you go for, I'd suggest keeping all wiring neat and clearly labelled - and documenting what you do (including clear wiring diagrams, showing which wire goes where). I'd also suggest keeping wiring (and power) for trains separate from wiring for stuff like accessories / animations and point motors.

 

This might sound like a lot of work - but you need to reckon that anything you build or connect might need to be repaired at a later date - in other words, a bit of extra work now, to avoid a load of grief at a later date (when you've probably forgotten what you did and why).

 

 

Whatever you do - whatever decisions you make - the hobby is meant to be enjoyable.

 

You're doing the right thing - you're asking questions - I'm sure you'll have more over time. Don't feel under pressure to jump into doing things (or adopting methods) that aren't right for you.

 

 

All the best.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Huw Griffiths

[regme]

Thanks Huw, for that post.

 

I have downloaded the e-book, some light bedtime reading  at over 600 pages 😀

 

Yes the car dumper and train load out (TLO) will be motorised and I have found a few articles for the both so that will get me started.  As you mentioned, I was going to build both away from the layout, it will be easier especially when it comes to the animation and lighting of both.

 

The hard part will be keeping the wiring neat, as my current layout is a dog's breakfast.  The responses have definitely given me food for thought and a place to start from.

 

Also I'll have a thread / name for the layout, once I have the baseboard constructed, were all my faults will be exposed.

 

Cheers

[Huw Griffiths]

2 hours ago, regme said:

The hard part will be keeping the wiring neat, as my current layout is a dog's breakfast.  The responses have definitely given me food for thought and a place to start from.

 

Also I'll have a thread / name for the layout, once I have the baseboard constructed, were all my faults will be exposed.

 

Lots of people seem to have problems with keeping wiring neat. A number of methods are available - spiral cable wrap - "snap on lid" rectangular plastic trunking - cable clips etc. Essentially, the key points are to label wires - group them together (so they don't end up as a tangled mess) - and constrain them close to the baseboard (to stop heads, hands etc getting caught in them when crawling under the layout).

 

In case you're wondering why I'm so fussy about this stuff, I used to work as an instrumentation technician in a university civils department. I had to wire up lots of transducers (especially strain gauges) - to allow measurements to be made - but I didn't want students getting tangled up in wires during lab tests.

 

I'm looking forward to your thread. Don't worry too much about criticism - most of us here try to keep it constructive. (Those who don't usually find themselves being "persuaded" to take the hint.)

 

 

By the way, don't worry about all the pages in the e-book. There's nothing wrong with "dipping into" it as needed ... .

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Huw Griffiths

[AndyID]

On 31/05/2022 at 04:10, regme said:

The hard part will be keeping the wiring neat, as my current layout is a dog's breakfast.

 

 

If you are using servos don't try to make your wiring too neat. The signal input on the inexpensive servos has very little noise immunity and if it picks up false input pulses due to noise the servo can go bananas. Model railways are excellent sources of electrical noise. It's best to keep the servo connections as short as possible and not bundle them with other other connections that can couple interference into the servo's pulse input.

[Edward]

On 28/05/2022 at 22:56, regme said:

Currently I control the movements from the main line to the sidings and vise versa with switches turning the power on and off.  Maybe I could do this a bit smarter using block detection.

Just a thought does this mean the DCC signal/track bus ?  Usually / always one wants every bit of the rails live all the time?

I do support the idea of 100% DCC  so my layout has only two cables running round : the NCE cab bus and the track power ones which feed directly to each of the sections.  I took this route when I realised that to do the points the analogue way would have taken 80-100  wires.  Although expensive I think it paid off in simplicity.

[melmerby]

On 02/06/2022 at 10:18, Edward said:

 

I do support the idea of 100% DCC  so my layout has only two cables running round : the NCE cab bus and the track power ones which feed directly to each of the sections.  I took this route when I realised that to do the points the analogue way would have taken 80-100  wires.  Although expensive I think it paid off in simplicity.

Just two wires!

What happens when you run into a point incorrectly set?😁

 

I would opt for a track bus and an accessory bus, the track fed through a dcc cutout.

That way if you trip the track power, the points can still be operated.

[Edward]

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Just two wires!

What happens when you run into a point incorrectly set?😁

 

I would opt for a track bus and an accessory bus, the track fed through a dcc cutout.

That way if you trip the track power, the points can still be operated.

Yes that's a moot point.  In my case I use the NCE Current limiter.  The bulb lights up & I switch off the offending section!  Recently a new challenge as now have some SAs fitted locos which can carry fighting on over the points.  I try to check the route even more carefully.