PECO announces its entry into the TT gauge market

[eldomtom2]

However, if they want to get crossover sales from existing TT markets, their best options are a Dean Goods or a Jinty for steam, and a Class 11 or 66 for diesel.

[whart57]

2 minutes ago, Vanguard 5374 said:

I don’t believe it has ever been stated or put as a ready to run item? I merely want to have a quick to build loco for my own purposes first, in a scale I wish to pursue?

 

You mean like this?

 

That's a 3D printed loco body and tender acquired from Shapeways driven by a converted motor-bogie in the tender and a simple push-along chassis for the loco.

 

My point is that right now the infrastructure in terms of rolling stock kits, wheels, castings, scenic items etc is better for 3mm scale than it is for 1:120, at least for British outline.

 

If the PECO initiative leads to a significant range of RTR locos and rolling stock then I see the point. I don't see any advantage if it leads to the same pragmatic put things together mode that is already 3mm scale.

 

[Tim Dubya]

8 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Well yes, but that's the reason people went to 3mm scale. Now I get it that you don't have RTR in 3mm scale but nor do you in 1/10" scale either. Well not British outline RTR anyway.

 

but it is an inaccurate basterd, as is OO and I would prefer it to be correct.   If I have to scratch build (do some modelling) then I will.  There's plenty of trade support from Alan Doherty for 1:120 (even if it isn't off the shelf, it can be manufactured) and mechanisms are available, I have found out today.  Yes, loco's will be a challenge but that's all the fun of making models.

 

[Hobby]

10 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Well yes, but that's the reason people went to 3mm scale. Now I get it that you don't have RTR in 3mm scale but nor do you in 1/10" scale either. Well not British outline RTR anyway.

 

Put it another way, then. 3mm can't make its mind up what it is, three guages! By going for 1:120 scale they have gone for the original scale, there's plenty of RTR around which will make design and manufacture of new models easier and it'll also be the right gauge. Let's face it 3mm modelling in SG is a bit confusing, at least they are giving it a clean sheet and perhaps where we should have been in the first place if Triang had tried a bit harder.

[whart57]

1 minute ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

but it is an inaccurate basterd, as is OO and I would prefer it to be correct.   If I have to scratch build (do some modelling) then I will.  There's plenty of trade support from Alan Doherty for 1:120 (even if it isn't off the shelf, it can be manufactured) and mechanisms are available, I have found out today.  Yes, loco's will be a challenge but that's all the fun of making models.

 

 

So adopt 14.2mm gauge. There is a flexible trackbase and now point kits from British Finescale as well as a wide range of wheels both for wagons and coaches and for locomotives.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you are suggesting, I am just pointing out that the option of a mix of scratch building, kit building, bashing together things that have been 3D printed, in a scale between OO/EM and N existed before last weekend.

 

I don't think that is where PECO is headed

[whart57]

5 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Put it another way, then. 3mm can't make its mind up what it is, three guages! By going for 1:120 scale they have gone for the original scale, there's plenty of RTR around which will make design and manufacture of new models easier and it'll also be the right gauge. Let's face it 3mm modelling in SG is a bit confusing, at least they are giving it a clean sheet and perhaps where we should have been in the first place if Triang had tried a bit harder.

 

There are three gauges for 4mm scale, plus something called OO-SF which I can't quite work out what it's for (no don't explain here, please) and a coarse scale variant needed for 1960-era Triang and the like. PECO fob most OO gauge modellers off with track intended for HO scale and the range of "correct" OO is very limited compared to that. Who exactly can't make their mind up?

 

British outline N isn't on the right track gauge either, it should be 9.7mm rather than 9mm.

 

I commend PECO on this initiative, which is indeed a clean sheet. The trouble is books made up of clean sheets don't make an interesting read.

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Surely the intention is to standardise on the original TT scale rather than encourage two scales. At least that's how I've read Peco's video which makes it clear they are looking st 1:120 and not 1:100. What 3mm modellers decide to do is up to them. 

 

But in terms of British railway modelling, it is the introduction of a new scale, which strikes me as somewhat Quixotic. 

[PaulRhB]

7 minutes ago, whart57 said:

There is a flexible trackbase and now point kits from British Finescale

So why would Peco go head to head when Wayne is catering for them?  😉 Peco’s resisted bullhead for years as C&L and SMP adequately catered for it. 
I built my OO layout with their products, it was only DCCconcepts joining in with their legacy track range that led to Peco having a major rtr track competitor that meant they needed to respond.  
No Peco track here just rtr from Marcway, SMP & C&L. 

 

Just now, whart57 said:

I commend PECO on this initiative, which is indeed a clean sheet. The trouble is books made up of clean sheets don't make an interesting read.

 But it makes perfect sense when you figure in the European market for 1:120 scale track. That market exists so why not try to sell the track here too with a bit of minor investment to see if they can start off something? It worked in 009 so they are looking to see if they can open up a new market with minimal stepping on existing UK cottage industries. The fact it’s useful to the TT 12mm gauge fraternity too is a bonus 😉

[JohnR]

This only makes sense in terms of a RTR manufacturer (or more) making a wide range of items for it. For those who are happy making their own things, and worrying about the right wheels, or building their own trackwork (or using a kit), then there are plenty of existing options.

 

But this seems to me to be aimed at the same sort of person who uses OO. Maybe fine with building some kit buildings, but generally wants to plonk down trackwork, unbox some trains and have some fun - but who doesnt have space.

 

Peco may not have invested much in these tentative first steps - so the risk is small, but surely it only really pays off if one of the larger manufacturers is also going to do something - a couple of locos, some coaches and more wagons. Maybe some set track (maybe Peco would produce that for them? Hence why they havnt done that themselves?) A few ready to plonk buildings? 

[whart57]

Is the gap between 1:120 and British N wide enough though? As an exercise I took a drawing of a GWR 14xx off the internet, scaled it for OO, 1:120 and British N

 

 

Given that British N is already well supplied is there an advantage in stopping short of going that far?

 

[Golden Fleece 30]

For those who do not think there is much 3mm around Lincoln-Locos make over 60 different 3D printed bodies and so far 3 ready to run locos, class 24 (photo attached), class 37 (chassis photo attached), and  a Warship, soon to appear is the WR Western rtr.  The plans for the future are to do more chassis's for other bodies that are printed and I have seen the class 20 and 40's running. Another person has made limited runs of RTR, Hymek, 03, 08 all using the Lincoln locos bodies with another chap doing a railbus rtr.  I am a steam man myself and have over 100 different classes of BR outline locos from the Stirling single to Evening Star. A lot of these, including many diesels like Electra and 10201 here are modified and fitted to Tri-ang chassis's or my own etched chassis's.  The 3mm society sells a lot of kits and chassis's which I personally have very few of but they have a huge supply of wagon kits, mainly Parkside (which actually come via Peco now as they own the moulds) and are excellent value and I do have quite a few of those.   Irrespective of gauge there are a lot of fine models available to buy or make in 3mm scale.  Whatever Peco do certainly wont be of interest to me (signals maybe) but TT is and I cannot complain about what I have achieved with it considering Tri-ang only made 8 different British outline locos and people cannot say there is not much available in 3mm.  

 

Garry

[Lacathedrale]

13 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Is the gap between 1:120 and British N wide enough though? As an exercise I took a drawing of a GWR 14xx off the internet, scaled it for OO, 1:120 and British N

 

 

Given that British N is already well supplied is there an advantage in stopping short of going that far?

 

 

I think this is a key consideration - EuroN 1:160 to EuroTT 1:120 is a nice sequence, but BritishN (1:148) to BritishTT (1:120) seems faintly ridicolous

[Hobby]

Which version of TT3 should they have gone for, then, 12mm, 13.5mm or 14.2mm gauges? They couldn't do all and only one party would be left happy and the chances are it would be 12mm gauge as they are looking for track sales beyond these shores.

 

It seems to me they have gone for the right option, the one with lots of existing trade support, many items such as buildings can be used in British models and we'll be able to see British and Continental models alongside each other in the same scale if all goes to plan.

 

I can understand those who have vested interests in 3mm scale being peeved off  but I don't think that's the market they are aiming at, though some may move with the times.

[Railpassion]

A bold move by Peco. I tried continental TT as an experiment and found the positives to be shorter carriage lengths and more space generally. What had been a maximum 4-coach OO train length could now be 5 full length German IC coaches. 

The negatives were the track (very expensive from Tillig, so I used Peco HOm) and the coupling standards across different models. 

I'm sure that with mass produced track it's only a matter of time that UK locos and rolling stock appear from the smaller builders. 

 

 

 

[spamcan61]

29 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I can understand those who have vested interests in 3mm scale being peeved off  but I don't think that's the market they are aiming at, though some may move with the times.

I don't have a vested interest in 3mm, but I do have an interest in something UK outline smaller than OO but bigger than N. 

 

It appears I have a choice between 14.2mm/3mm with a fair range of supporting kits for rolling stock, buildings etc. or Peco's new 12.0/2.5mm venture with some nice track, a few buildings soon and maybe a PO wagon. I can't say the latter looks like an attractive option at this point in time.  If there's a whole range of UK outline 1/120 buildings, rolling stock, locos etc. waiting in the wings you'd think they'd announce them at day 1 to reassure potential buyers like me  this is the start of a complete system available in a 'reasonable' timescale not a few bits and pieces. 

 

[Dunsignalling]

Peco will have costed the track tooling on the basis of it turning a profit on sales into the existing continental TT market for 1:120 scale.

 

If British outline at that scale does take off, it'll be a nice bonus for them, but the building kits they've announced are laser-cut wood and there are no tooling costs to recoup. The wagon will involve some investment but will, no doubt, be tooled in-house within existing capacity. It'll therefore be fairly insignificant in the context of their overall business, and certainly undershoot what it would cost most others to do quite substantially. 

 

While they will be hoping and planning for success in the new venture, Peco can afford for British 1:120 scale to take a while to get established, or even fizzle out. The track will provide an ongoing income regardless.

 

The real decider will be someone launching locomotives in the scale; not something that, on previous form, I'd expect Peco to do themselves .

 

Personally, I can't imagine they would have announced the other stuff without prior knowledge of that. 

 

John

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[D9020 Nimbus]

With regard to the couplings, the one shown is an NEM359 coupling, as used by Tillig — and Arnold — for their TT products. Piko supply the style of TT coupling that Tillig used to use; Roco employ Fleischmann N gauge profi-couplings — they can do this since the standard TT coupling mount, NEM358, is identical to the NEM355 standard used in N gauge.

 

The NEM359 can be uncoupled from above with a magnet on a stick, and below with a ramp. They don't look big on Continental models — they're no larger than 009 couplings, a bit smaller than anything — so perhaps the perspective in the CAD is exaggerating the size. They're much easier to couple and uncouple than the Arnold type used in N gauge — but Dapol easi-shunts would fit.

 

I wonder if Hornby are planning something related? In the Arnold range they do a DB/DR BR95 2-10-2T — as with the majority of German steam it has two outside cylinders, so a lot of fiddly bits.

 

Apart from the steam locos already suggested, and the 08, for a diesel model I'd suggest a class 37 — over 50 years of service, lots of different liveries, and I believe some have served in mainland Europe too… 

[Pmorgancym]

There is one thing, every year we wonder what manufacturers are going to produce next, prototypes become more obscure more limited in scope, Hornby etc are sitting on a pile of prototype research. 

I suspect those who deal in n gauge probably have the jump on Hornby having sources for suitable cordless motors of the right size.  

There is a potential for someone to break new ground here.

Possibly Dapol?  They took the jump into N while Farish were in hiatus.

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

Which version of TT3 should they have gone for, then, 12mm, 13.5mm or 14.2mm gauges? They couldn't do all and only one party would be left happy and the chances are it would be 12mm gauge as they are looking for track sales beyond these shores.

 

It seems to me they have gone for the right option, the one with lots of existing trade support, many items such as buildings can be used in British models and we'll be able to see British and Continental models alongside each other in the same scale if all goes to plan.

 

I can understand those who have vested interests in 3mm scale being peeved off  but I don't think that's the market they are aiming at, though some may move with the times.

For what it's worth I think PECO have made the only decision that makes commercial sense. It just amuses me that some think a track range without anything to run on it opens up possibilities that didn't exist before. Anyone that rejected 3mm scale before is not getting anything better. Yet 

[bradfordbuffer]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Well yes, but that's the reason people went to 3mm scale. Now I get it that you don't have RTR in 3mm scale but nor do you in 1/10" scale either. Well not British outline RTR anyway.

There is RTP in 3mm....a few simple wagon kits 12mm peco track....=layout !

or have a try at 14.2mm gauge in 3mm simple point kits= layout

Prob room for both SCALES SCALES! That's the point most misunderstood 

3mm (premi)

[Mr chapman]

This is exactly what I was talking about. You start to look at TT and it devolves quickly into who has the correct version of TT. 

 

As far as the new TT120 that this thread is about it looks good. I will give it a go. Things have moved on dramatically from the original triang stuff. Mechanisms have gotten smaller andd quieter, dcc is a thing. If you can sound fit an N gauge 08 then you should really be able to most stuff in TT120. Is that much bigger than N? Well yes. Not by a huge margin, but bigger enough for things like point frogs to be easier to navigate. Useful for the shunting puzzles and stuff I'm sure will turn up. 

 

Everyone has an opinion on what peco should be doing. I'd like to see the N setrack point updated to second radius. Seems rather odd that in a world where 2nd radius has become the minimum for a lot of models they haven't changed that. 

 

But this thread is about TT120. And I'm happy it's a thing. 

[whart57]

11 minutes ago, Mr chapman said:

This is exactly what I was talking about. You start to look at TT and it devolves quickly into who has the correct version of TT. 

 

As far as the new TT120 that this thread is about it looks good. I will give it a go. Things have moved on dramatically from the original triang stuff. Mechanisms have gotten smaller andd quieter, dcc is a thing. If you can sound fit an N gauge 08 then you should really be able to most stuff in TT120. Is that much bigger than N? Well yes. Not by a huge margin, but bigger enough for things like point frogs to be easier to navigate. Useful for the shunting puzzles and stuff I'm sure will turn up. 

 

Everyone has an opinion on what peco should be doing. I'd like to see the N setrack point updated to second radius. Seems rather odd that in a world where 2nd radius has become the minimum for a lot of models they haven't changed that. 

 

But this thread is about TT120. And I'm happy it's a thing. 

Can I just say say that there is no "correct" version of 3mm scale. The Society can't win can it, either it is authoritarian or it can't make up its mind. Which is it because it can't be both 

[woodenhead]

Next week Peco will be announcing it's new range of P4 code 100 set track......

[Mr chapman]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

Can I just say say that there is no "correct" version of 3mm scale. The Society can't win can it, either it is authoritarian or it can't make up its mind. Which is it because it can't be both 

I don't think anyone is being authoritarian, more a case of too many cooks. When everyone comes chiming in with their way of doing it (they all have merits) it just confuses the issue. As an outsider you end up not knowing which way is up.

 

As an aside the best 3mm layout I've seen personally was a circular 3mm broad gauge layout! That track was closer to 00. But the locomotives with working inside motion were superb. The star of ally pally that year for me. 

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

Can I just say say that there is no "correct" version of 3mm scale. The Society can't win can it, either it is authoritarian or it can't make up its mind. Which is it because it can't be both 

Authoritarian.....love it ! Can't beat a bit a bit of been whipped by leather clad mistress.....oops wrong web sight!