Slightly odd Mk1

[russ p]

Anyone any idea what the coach behind the pullman is? It's obviously a mk1 but the windows look smaller , similar to Swindon DMU ones

[andyman7]

I thought it looked like an early Mk2 FO - they were the first Mk2s built and had four toplights rather than three as well as centre doors so at this angle can be confused with a Mk1 as the rounded roof/coach ends aren't obvious. But there is an obvious underframe there too so maybe not...

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by andyman7

[giz]

Is it one of the 1957 prototypes?

 

Looking closer, I think its an early Mk2 FK. The apparent solebar looks like a shadow.

Edited June 20, 2022 by giz

[rodent279]

That's a MK2 first of some sort. What looks like an underframe is actually light reflecting off the lower bodyside.

[Pandora]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

I thought it looked like an early Mk2 FO - they were the first Mk2s built and had four toplights rather than three as well as centre doors so at this angle can be confused with a Mk1 as the rounded roof/coach ends aren't obvious. But there is an obvious underframe there too so maybe not...

 

A strange bird indeed,  look at the gap for the door entry nearest to the camera, , it seems the door is hinged to open inwards to the vestibule, and observe the similar doorway at the opposite end of the carriage,  is the doorway inset or joggled to the main bodyside of the carriage?

Edited June 20, 2022 by Pandora

[Clive Mortimore]

It is an ex Metro Cammell Mk1 Second Class Pullman Parlour. The ER used a few as Open First after the second class on the Pullman trains was abolished and replaced with Mk2 air con stock. 

 

 

[Pandora]

5 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

It is an ex Metro Cammell Mk1 Second Class Pullman Parlour. The ER used a few as Open First after the second class on the Pullman trains was abolished and replaced with Mk2 air con stock. 

 

 

Here  is a Flickr link for more images of the carriages:

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Pandora

[giz]

4 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

It is an ex Metro Cammell Mk1 Second Class Pullman Parlour. The ER used a few as Open First after the second class on the Pullman trains was abolished and replaced with Mk2 air con stock. 

 

 

The OP was asking about the far coach, not the Pullman

[rodent279]

Look at the curve of the bodyside at the coach ends. It's  rounded, and curvesin towards the coach cl. I'm certain it's an early mk2, possibly from the first batch of vb only mk2's.

[BernardTPM]

Defintely a standard Mk.2 FK because of the four-part slding vents (so not a Mk2a). The really odd-ball one was W13252 with it's 4' wide windows and DMU profile which I saw at Newquay back in 1979.

[Clive Mortimore]

54 minutes ago, giz said:

The OP was asking about the far coach, not the Pullman

 

34 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

Defintely a standard Mk.2 FK because of the four-part slding vents (so not a Mk2a). The really odd-ball one was W13252 with it's 4' wide windows and DMU profile which I saw at Newquay back in 1979.

I agree with Bernard, an early Mk2 FK.

[Wickham Green too]

The Mk 2 giveaway is the blue end continued up to the roof dome.

[russ p]

Thanks for the replies 

I didn’t notice the domed ends at first.  I think it may actually be the prototype mk2 which is now on mid Norfolk.

Windows are different to later mk2s and have a look of late great Western stock

[russ p]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

Defintely a standard Mk.2 FK because of the four-part slding vents (so not a Mk2a). The really odd-ball one was W13252 with it's 4' wide windows and DMU profile which I saw at Newquay back in 1979.

 

My first thoughts until I noticed the ends was that it was a class 123 vehicle 

[Davexoc]

If the windows are narrower, then it is the prototype Mk2 FK W13252. Built at Swindon, but transfered to the ER in 1974

If the windows are standard width, then it is probably one of the production batch built Derby E13361-13378

All were assigned code AA1Z, and were vacuum braked and steam heated.

[Wickham Green too]

The photo of that side of 13252 in Harris' Mk 2 book shows an extra small box of underframe gubbins not visible here - so it's probably from the production batch.

[russ p]

11 hours ago, Davexoc said:

If the windows are narrower, then it is the prototype Mk2 FK W13252. Built at Swindon, but transfered to the ER in 1974

If the windows are standard width, then it is probably one of the production batch built Derby E13361-13378

All were assigned code AA1Z, and were vacuum braked and steam heated.

 

To me the windows look narrower than normal Mk2 hence me mistakenly thinking it was a mk1

Did all the early production mk2s,have the twin sliding top lights?

[Wickham Green too]

Depends on your definition of 'all' and 'early' ! ............. all the first batch FKs 13361 - 13406 did, but nowt else.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

It is an ex Metro Cammell Mk1 Second Class Pullman Parlour. The ER used a few as Open First after the second class on the Pullman trains was abolished and replaced with Mk2 air con stock. 

 

 

Yes - the one in the middle is definitely a Mk1 former Pullman - a number of them ran on the GE and several were marshalled in teh Harwid ch Boat Trains at one time.  The fi urther one looks to me like a Mk2a.

[Flood]

55 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes - the one in the middle is definitely a Mk1 former Pullman - a number of them ran on the GE and several were marshalled in teh Harwid ch Boat Trains at one time.  The fi urther one looks to me like a Mk2a.

NOT a Mk2a, please read the previous comments.

 

It's a Mk2 vacuum braked FK, later classified as Mk2Z under POIS.

[Halvarras]

No doubting the main subject is a former Met-Cam Pullman (the OP knows this already) but if the Mark 2 FK vehicle beyond has Mark 1-sized windows - and it looks like it does to me - then it can only be the prototype Mark 2 13252 as it was unique in this respect.

14 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The photo of that side of 13252 in Harris' Mk 2 book shows an extra small box of underframe gubbins not visible here - so it's probably from the production batch.

Interesting point but at 12 years old and a prototype it may well have lost this to bring it into line with the production vehicles.

[BernardTPM]

3 hours ago, russ p said:

To me the windows look narrower than normal Mk2 hence me mistakenly thinking it was a mk1

Did all the early production mk2s, have the twin sliding top lights?

Here's the one-off prototype with 4ft wide windows I photographed in 1979. The one in the original photo has wider windows as can be seen in this comparison. The clincher is the way the windows either side of the corridor door are moved apart (reducing the adjacent window pillars) to leave enough room for the door. On Mk.1 FK and the prototype Mk.2 FK this was not necessary because the 4 ft wide windows left enough space for the door.

 

It's just a standard Mk.2 FK.  The other Mk.2 types (BFK, TSO, SO and BSO)  had the normal single-sliding Mk.2 window vents so are hard to distinguish from Mk.2a if the end can't be seen.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, Halvarras said:

..... Interesting point but at 12 years old and a prototype it may well have lost this to bring it into line with the production vehicles.

......... except that the photo of that side of the vehicle was actually taken fifteen years AFTER the Yarmouth shot.

[Clive Mortimore]

22 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Here's the one-off prototype with 4ft wide windows I photographed in 1979. The one in the original photo has wider windows as can be seen in this comparison. The clincher is the way the windows either side of the corridor door are moved apart (reducing the adjacent window pillars) to leave enough room for the door. On Mk.1 FK and the prototype Mk.2 FK this was not necessary because the 4 ft wide windows left enough space for the door.

 

 

As I found out trying to fit the middle corridor side door when I cut and shut a pair of Tri-ang Mk2 brake coaches to make a Mk2 FK.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Clive Mortimore

[robertcwp]

It looks like a Mark 2 FK to me.