How many locos do I need for my layout?

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, APT Fan said:

 

My time period will be the 80s and I was thinking about what would look right passing say an APT in the other direction. However I need to be realistic as I'm not buying two of them, so it will be a compromise with an '87 or HST going the other way.

 

That is one of the reasons why a reverse loop is a useful feature on a layout - the train is seen in one direction then reappears in the other.  Not always possible given confines of space of course.  And end-to end layouts have the advantage that the train always comes back again!

 

That's not quite so clever with freight though.  A traditional mixed freight running one way really ought to be balanced by a completely different rake of wagons going the other way.  And this is particularly true of coal/mineral trains - the usual pattern would be loaded in one direction: loaded pit to docks for ships or to a power station, (can be deemed to be outside the area modelled if convenient) and of course empty back to the colliery.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

If having fifteen locos is daft I need to check into an asylum....

 

What are you trying to do? Run a few trains without worrying what is running with what - in which case what you already have will probably suffice.

 

If you want to start going down the road of being more prototypical then you need to work out how prototypical you want to be - the APT was withdrawn three years before the class 158 came into service for example. Start looking for photos of the period you're interested in (I'm guessing 1980s). Identify what's "normal" for your area of operation - the WCML is quite long and whilst something like a class 26 may have been commonly found at one end it'll be virtually non-existent at the other.

 

You may well find you'll only need a few classes of loco but several versions there of. For example, you might find a fleet consisting of a couple of class 47s, a couple of AC electrics and a class 31 or 37 would be enough to run alongside your existing models. On the other hand you may end up with many more than the bare minimum - most of us do!

 

Steven B.

 

My memories of the WCML and North West in general in that era (1980s).

 

25KV Electrics (81, 82, 83, 85, 86, 87), EMUs and DMUs were the bulk of trains.

 

Regular locos - 25, 31 (mostly Trans Pennine), 40, 45, 46, 47, 56. Early 1980s Deltics on the Trans Pennine.

Occasional locos - 20, 26, 27, 33, 37 (not as common as you would think, but more common as time went on), 50, 58

 

08 shunters? Everywhere. Often seen toddling up and down the mainline. Still do. Saw one at Speke Junction the other day actually running along the mainline.

 

 

Jason

Edited July 21, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[kevinlms]

24 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That is one of the reasons why a reverse loop is a useful feature on a layout - the train is seen in one direction then reappears in the other.  Not always possible given confines of space of course.  And end-to end layouts have the advantage that the train always comes back again!

 

That's not quite so clever with freight though.  A traditional mixed freight running one way really ought to be balanced by a completely different rake of wagons going the other way.  And this is particularly true of coal/mineral trains - the usual pattern would be loaded in one direction: loaded pit to docks for ships or to a power station, (can be deemed to be outside the area modelled if convenient) and of course empty back to the colliery.

An HST is an example of a train that you DON'T want to run around a reverse loop. Almost always they ran with the first class end of the train, closest to the buffer stops at the London terminii. But loco hauled passenger express services were often in a similar format.

[The Johnster]

The limit (of trains, not locos) is firstly the storage available in your fiddle yard, and if you were living in a perfect world you would have a fy road for each train that ran past your model’s location in the period.  Except on lines with very low traffic levels this is practically impossible, and the necessity to be able to reach stock limits your baseboard width, so the length needed would be enormous as the fy would need to be in sections arranged lengthways.  Don't forget your fy roads need to be spaced apart sufficiently for you to be able to handle stock. 
 

Then there is a secondary storage issue, as you will want to change the locos and sometimes the stock.  For your 80s operation,  the stock can be the same day in day out but the locos change.  The spare locos and stock need to be to hand, and shelf space is needed for the locos and stock removed.  
 

A very large number of locos will introduce a burden of maintenance and cleaning which will become onerous.  The hobby is supposed to be something you do for fun. 
 

I would suggest that you do not worry too much about how many locos or how much stock you have.  Build your layout, run your APT around it, and run whatever you feel like from the period on the other road(s).  Build as much capacity into your fy as you can manage, and then fill it with trains until you reckon you’ve got enough.  There is no theoretical upper limit, but cost, space, and keeping up with the maintenance will provide a natural check on what you can cope with.  
 

08s could be seen trundling around on main lines at that time, either light engine on the way from depot to an outlying yard, or on local trip jobs.  The low speed made them a pita, especially to the signallers.  Not necessarily a daily event, though. 
 

Depends what you want the layout to do.  Watching trains passing is fine, though I would find it dull as my interest is the breaking down and making up of trains, shunting, and I would be wanting to incorporate some form of this into the operation, and if you are going to do this it must be allowed for at the planning stage. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

An HST is an example of a train that you DON'T want to run around a reverse loop. Almost always they ran with the first class end of the train, closest to the buffer stops at the London terminii. But loco hauled passenger express services were often in a similar format.

True, but not unknown for them to be routed over the wrong bridge at Newcastle and end up the wrong way round.  They had to be sent back in due course and routed the "wrong" way to fix it.

[Oldddudders]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

HSTs did run on the WCML (although maybe not all of it, apologies if I've missed exactly where you're modelling). 

Certainly as far as Crewe, en route Holyhead, from the late '80s until 2004, ISTR. 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

An HST is an example of a train that you DON'T want to run around a reverse loop. Almost always they ran with the first class end of the train, closest to the buffer stops at the London terminii. But loco hauled passenger express services were often in a similar format.

 

Don't forget they didn't just go to London and one on the WCML (as in the OP) almost certainly wouldn't be going there. More likely one of the Cross Country sets that ran this route before the Voyagers took over.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrossCountry_NE–SW_route

 

 

Jason

[Andy Hayter]

7 hours ago, APT Fan said:

 

My time period will be the 80s and I was thinking about what would look right passing say an APT in the other direction. However I need to be realistic as I'm not buying two of them

 

 

I can understand not buying a second ATP but the solution is much cheaper (and probably easier) just introduce a cross over in the fiddle yard so that your up ATP can cross onto the down side of the fiddle yard and a second cross over to allow the down ATP to enter the up side. 

[Rivercider]

4 hours ago, APT Fan said:

 

I can't ever remember seeing HSTs on the WCML certainly north of Warrington but I did hear that they did a bit of work on one of the routes into Piccadilly, not sure what period that was though. I recently purchased one of the newer Hornby models in Inter City 125 livery but I sold two of the older models in the same livery to part fund it. My old layout back in the 80s was three tracks and I uded to run the two HSTs in opposing directions and an APT on the outside track - looked great!

The 1986/87 public timetable shows two HST departures from Manchester Piccadilly (to Plymouth) and one from Liverpool Lime Street (to Penzance). Glancing through a couple of the other surviving public timetables I have from the  mid 1980s there seems to be two or three HST Cross Country services per day to/from the North West, though the actual trains covered by the HSTs seemed to vary  year to year.

 

As to the question 'how many locos'? I expect most of us would come up with a different answer.  When it comes to stocking a WCML fiddle yard, it is not my area of expertise, but even then I would probably differ depending upon north/middle/south WCML with variations for each for early/middle/late 1980s.

 

I have suggested on other threads, but it seems appropriate here, to keep some visual interest you could have a couple of loops, (or recess sidings) to hold a freight train or two waiting a main line pathway.

 

cheers

[APT Fan]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

My memories of the WCML and North West in general in that era (1980s).

 

25KV Electrics (81, 82, 83, 85, 86, 87), EMUs and DMUs were the bulk of trains.

 

Regular locos - 25, 31 (mostly Trans Pennine), 40, 45, 46, 47, 56. Early 1980s Deltics on the Trans Pennine.

Occasional locos - 20, 26, 27, 33, 37 (not as common as you would think, but more common as time went on), 50, 58

 

08 shunters? Everywhere. Often seen toddling up and down the mainline. Still do. Saw one at Speke Junction the other day actually running along the mainline.

 

 

Jason

 

Yes! Those Inter City Express trains thundering down the mainline doing the ton being hauled by those uniquely  sounding Lecy loco's was a sight to behold! I'm hoping the add sound to my '87 and I'm sorely tempted by Heljan's '86. Opps I'm off again, looking for my next purchase! 

[kevinlms]

18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Don't forget they didn't just go to London and one on the WCML (as in the OP) almost certainly wouldn't be going there. More likely one of the Cross Country sets that ran this route before the Voyagers took over.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrossCountry_NE–SW_route

 

 

Jason

Yes, I'm aware that many sets didn't go near London, NE/SW sets for sure, but they still had a definite right way round, which was my point.

[Allegheny1600]

I agree with the Johnster.

You need to work out how many trains you want to run - then work out whether or not to swap and change the locos  on each train and how often.

Obviously, your APT doesn’t need anything else but additional trains you could run would be an inter-city composed of mainly Mk3 coaches, a MK3 sleeper train (or Mk1 perhaps?). These IIRC would be mainly hauled by class 86/4, 87 or 90.

Then you could have a “lesser” train of Mk2 air conditioned stock, denoted by windows without opening lights at the top. This hauled by virtually all of the available later AC electric loco models and many diesels but likely a 47/4 really.

 I don’t know whether there were still trains of mainly Mk1 or early Mk2 stock running contemporaneously with the APT but your modellers licence should allow it! Should allow the early AC locos to run on passenger stock.

 

Then there’s freight! By the early 1980s, it felt to me as though most British freight trains were simple “block” trains of identical wagons but I believe there were still a fair few mixed Speedlink trains about and occasionally even, some vacuum fitted trains of mineral wagons, vans etc. All of which demands variety of traction - even to such as class 40s and 25. Speaking of class 40, I recall seeing the green celebrity 40 106 around the time of the APT!

 

So, without getting carried away with it all, a four track representation of the WCML should be able to justify a LOT of locos - due to train variety.

[APT Fan]

I only have MK2E and MK3 BR Blue coaches, plus one of those Royal Mail one's with the collection basket. I have quite a lot of petrol tankers and a real mixed bag of Lima wagons.

 

In terms of the WCML, around the North West region you'd see an awful lot of Class 25s based at Springs Branch in Wigan, there were quite a lot of Class 40s about too. Around Warrington you'd see Class 56s and Class 20s, mainly at Arpley but also on the mailine sometimes. Class 47s?? well they were everywhere weren't they?

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I have just come back from a running session at my friend's shed layout. It is 18x20 ft in size. There are 11 engines run on this layout. We run full timetables of about 2 hours length.  So you do not need a huge number of locos. But it is always nice to have the choice to swap them about.

[The Johnster]

23 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

I can understand not buying a second ATP but the solution is much cheaper (and probably easier) just introduce a cross over in the fiddle yard so that your up ATP can cross onto the down side of the fiddle yard and a second cross over to allow the down ATP to enter the up side. 

An advantage shared by all multiple unit, auto, and push-pull trains.  An alternative is a central road accessed from both up an down roads at each end, which can be used as a ‘normal’ road in each direction as well as a ‘reversing’ road.  All depends on how much space you have and how you want to utilise it. 

[AyJay]

There is always the potential for a larger space and a new layout to put more rolling stock on.

If you need to ask this question……. then you are clearly not buying enough 😉

[The Johnster]

To summarise, the answer to the OP’s original question is ‘all of them’. 

[AyJay]

Post script.

Model railway for sale. £435,000. Council Tax band D.

Want bigger property for next project. 

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

To summarise, the answer to the OP’s original question is ‘all of them’. 

 

[AndrueC]

I'm still laying track though close to completion now. I had the same conundrum. Then I realised that if I added a couple more short sidings I could build a yard and just park a couple of spare locos there. Also worth remembering that you can use station platforms as sidings ;)

[AndrueC]

On 21/07/2022 at 08:55, APT Fan said:

My time period will be the 80s and I was thinking about what would look right passing say an APT in the other direction.

If I wasn't modelling in N I would have an APT-E. Almost makes me want to move up a scale or two just so I can have one. But one day I will build my own :)

[Chris M]

Its all about what you want from your layout. I have a 12 road storage siding so I naturally want a set of 12 trains that all are right together and fit my location/era. Its good to have a couple of spare prime movers so others can be taken out of service for maintenance. I run my layout in four eras so I now have nearly 14 x 4 locos or trains if they are HSTs or the like. I say nearly because some of the locos can be used in two different eras. I like to try to get all the sub liveries that appeared, you can have a few of the same loco but all with subtle differences. Running different eras is great. After a few months running one era I swap to a different era and its like having a new layout! Also its great to see old friends who haven't been around for a while. I haven't seen some of my stock since last November and I am looking forward to giving them a run this autumn; it will be great to see them all again.

 

I've even made a postcard for my layout.

 

[AyJay]

Just to add a different element to this…

“How many locos”?

As many as you can get away with before The Boss objects, of course.

In case of any problem, you could try either of these defences:

”Well how many handbags/pairs of shoes do you want?”

”Well it’s cheaper than smoking/ a season ticket with a premier league club”

Neither likely to be successful, but then again, if you don’t try…

[darrel]

How many locos? As many as you want. I have far more than I really need. I could fill my diesel depot 10 times over.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, darrel said:

How many locos? As many as you want. I have far more than I really need. I could fill my diesel depot 10 times over.

Perhaps you should build 10 depots as lift-out boards and change them from time to time as cartridges.